A Skies of Arcadia-like crewed vehicle + roster system?

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Lago PARANOIA
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A Skies of Arcadia-like crewed vehicle + roster system?

Post by Lago PARANOIA »

So. I've been playing Skies of Arcadia. Excellent game, that, one of the shining jewels of a console video game generation that's spoiled for choice on great games.

One of the highlights, nay, the money shot of the game is the airship system. It's simple, but it's also really fun. Specifically, I'm wondering about the ins and outs and pitfalls of this adapted approach. That said, here are the paradigms I'd like to push:
  • Probably the most important assumption: the game has separate minigames for standard action-adventure protagonist activities that are not covered by the vehicle, vehicle combat, and crew system. You know, shit like delving in dungeons, running businesses, fighting monsters, all that. Think Shadowrun or D&D or, heck, Skies of Arcadia. Keep this in mind, because it influences the other assumption.
  • The game heavily encourages a 3-7 PC party to pool their resources together for a crew. If people want to have their own individual vehicles then it works Voltron or Power Rangers style where while people can dick around in their Megazord component for any serious combat you need to, well, form Voltron.
  • The game should be able to support this system and also have people with real and important superpowers. It's okay if the answer the system gives to 'what happens if a hundred 15th-level wizards spam fireballs from embattlements at the vehicle' is 'the vehicle gets slightly damaged, but it pretty much annihilates them in less than a minute'. It's also okay if it turns that vehicles have an upper ceiling on power and Superman or Szass Tam can contemptuously destroy any number of airships. But the game should be able to model what happens without Rule Zero.
  • The individual badassedness of the officers and crewmembers matters a lot. A decent crew with a technologically superior ship should only be able to hold parity at best with a great crew with an inferior ship.
  • The game doesn't enforce hard game balance caps for determining who will join your crew and what kind of vehicle you'll have. Oh, sure, there can (and should) be plenty of soft caps like Reputation and Leadership and maintenance costs and simply the kind of people you attract, but if you come across Dread Pirate Roberts with his sexy +14 to Navigation and Gunnery bonus and he agrees to serve on your ship, the game and the DM shouldn't implode in on itself. That said, some sort of CR system which compared the individual D&D-like badassery of PCs to their expected wealth and power and tried to match them with an average-case vehicle and crew would be helpful.
  • The game has a logarithmic utility function for additional crewmembers. Since you can't enforce a video game-like hard cap on the number or ratio of gunners or medics in your crew, there needs to be a way I'm thinking of something like an Attention or Morale or Bureaucracy modifier where the competence of all NPC crewmembers drops off if you add too many people.
  • The crew roster has a bunch of specialties and positions that need to be filled in such a way that you just can't mix-and-match a generic badass nor can you just load up on 20 Magic Engineers and call it a day. You need shit like a gunner, a cook, a delegate, a medic, soforth. And while in-universe a good helmsman might be more valued than a good marine or a good boatswain's mate, as far as the players are concerned it's like wondering whether the feet slot or neck slot for magical items is more valuable.
  • The NPC members of your crew are individually important without hijacking the narrative unless the PCs and GM can think of a good reason for them to do so. Think Fire Emblem or Valkyria Chronicles or Mass Effect.
  • With all of the above assumptions, it seems like the narrative limit for crewmembers is 25 NPCs or 6 NPCs per PC, whichever is larger.
  • The vehicle regularly undergoes upgrades. This means that the game will have to provide a lot of different methods for doing upgrades, including but not limited to: commissions, off-the-shelf purchases, scavenging from defeated ships, scavenging from wrecked or abandoned ships, research, trading technologies from around the world, so-on.
  • Very importantly, the crew that runs the vehicle is only really good for running the vehicle. They do not generically assist in personal melee combat, adventuring, politics, or anything. As is often the case, an analogy with Star Wars might be helpful here: C3P0 is your go-to guy for communication and delegate duties, but no one -- stupid prequel trilogy moments aside -- expects him to participate in even light adventuring.
  • Because of the above caveat, there needs to be a way to enforce segregation between the skills needed to pilot the vehicle well and Other Wars of Adventuring. This means that while it's okay for a particular wizard to be a great engineer, wizards in general can't make great shipboard engineers. What's more, specialist skills and abilities of non-adventurers need to be better than adventurer dabblers. It's okay for a champion Waterbender who has never been aboard a ship before who uses her powers properly be a better helmsmen than 95% of the shlubs out of the academy, but this alone shouldn't make her the World's Best Helmsmen. This makes me think that not only should skills advance at a different track from traditional Adventurer powers, but they should also increase faster.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by MGuy »

Because of the above caveat, there needs to be a way to enforce segregation between the skills needed to pilot the vehicle well and Other Wars of Adventuring. This means that while it's okay for a particular wizard to be a great engineer, wizards in general can't make great shipboard engineers. What's more, specialist skills and abilities of non-adventurers need to be better than adventurer dabblers. It's okay for a champion Waterbender who has never been aboard a ship before who uses her powers properly be a better helmsmen than 95% of the shlubs out of the academy, but this alone shouldn't make her the World's Best Helmsmen. This makes me think that not only should skills advance at a different track from traditional Adventurer powers, but they should also increase faster.
I'm a bit confused about this one. Why? Why can't you be an adventuring Wizard engineer and be legitimately better at Engineering than most any NPC engineer?
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Post by Sakuya Izayoi »

MGuy wrote:
Because of the above caveat, there needs to be a way to enforce segregation between the skills needed to pilot the vehicle well and Other Wars of Adventuring. This means that while it's okay for a particular wizard to be a great engineer, wizards in general can't make great shipboard engineers. What's more, specialist skills and abilities of non-adventurers need to be better than adventurer dabblers. It's okay for a champion Waterbender who has never been aboard a ship before who uses her powers properly be a better helmsmen than 95% of the shlubs out of the academy, but this alone shouldn't make her the World's Best Helmsmen. This makes me think that not only should skills advance at a different track from traditional Adventurer powers, but they should also increase faster.
I'm a bit confused about this one. Why? Why can't you be an adventuring Wizard engineer and be legitimately better at Engineering than most any NPC engineer?
In Rogue Trader, with a full party, we were better than NPCs at just about any given task. So the solution to any given problem was to drown it in expendible redshirts, since they wouldn't ever be needed elsewhere.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

MGuy wrote:I'm a bit confused about this one. Why? Why can't you be an adventuring Wizard engineer and be legitimately better at Engineering than most any NPC engineer?
It's just a flavor assumption. There's nothing wrong, narrative or gameplay-wise, with your crew looking like a steampunk version of Jason and the Argonauts where every single person onboard has a resume worthy of their own Ewe Boll movie.

I made this assumption because:
1.) My intuition is that while people love commanding pirate ships and leading martial arts temples, actually having their staff and students participate with them on adventures is another thing. If your cook and your quartermaster are badass wizards who can hold their own on a fight, then unless you and your opposition are super-duper powerful yourself there's little reason why you wouldn't just drag them everywhere.

2.) My other intuition is that while there is a demand for Jason and the Argonauts/Mass Effect style teams of badasses, there's also a demand for crews where not-so-badasses like R2D2 and Tyrion Lannister are viable long-term choices. Video games can enforce this by just declaring that the best chemist you can get is a 12-year old boy genius in a wheelchair, but in a TTRPG there's no reason why you can't just tell anyone who isn't at the badassedness of Perseus or greater to GTFO.

However, I'm very open to counter-examples or the TGD telling me that they really don't want C3P0 or Rin Tin Tin to be as useful for the operation of the ship as Han Solo or Dr. Venture. Either way, even though I don't really see it cutting off more stories than it enables or vice versa it is an assumption that needs to be stated upfront.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Wed Jun 25, 2014 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Dean »

Explain to me what we are actually modeling because I don't know Skies of Arcadia. What are the PC's in this scenario? Do they run the ship Star Wars style where they run down hallways to fix explosions in the engine room before jumping into the Gunner seat or do they run the ship Star Trek style where they sit and declare actions that whole crews of offscreen cast will make happen.

Describe to me what we are emulating, what it should look like.
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Post by Laertes »

I played around with something sort of like this in a piece of Viking homebrew, and later tried to implement it in Rogue Trader but failed; Rogue Trader is one of the games I'd like to do a full rewrite of when I have time.

The basic idea was that PCs do things and make rolls, not the crew (in order to keep the action economy taut); but the crew act as modifiers on that. For example, after a battle your medicine roll to recover the wounded got a bonus if you had a crewman acting as a Medic. The IC explanation for this was that the crewman acts as the sidekick for whichever PC is doing that task at the time. In practise the different parts of the ship got divvied up between the PCs pretty quickly, so each PC essentially had a small harem of sidekicks. This was a fairly cool result because it made them very protective of "their" people and led to a lot of characterisation of the crew by their "owning" player.

I divided the possible crew jobs into Cruising and Action Stations, where action stations are the things you do during combat and the cruising station is what you do the rest of the time. Every crew member gets one cruising station and one action station. During Rogue Trader we tried a third, the Port Station, but couldn't get it to work to our satisfaction.

Every given crew member could give a different bonus (from a short list with considerable redundancy, because otherwise balancing becomes too hard) in each of a few stations. For example:

Icelandic Wereraven
Action:
+1 to Long-Range Archery when acting as Archer Leader
+1 to Overrun when acting as Boarding Party Leader

Cruising:
+1 to Storm Avoidance when acting as Navigator
+2 to Appease Odin when acting as Priest

You could reassign them when leaving port, but not during a voyage; the rationale was that they're Vikings and refuse to be ordered about like thralls. This explanation worked less well for Rogue Trader.

What made it work was that I was extremely stingy with the hiring of good new crew, so they were never at a point where they had enough people to really pick and choose to get an optimal roster. Instead they had a more or less static group of crew which would be reassigned before each voyage, depending on what they thought they'd be facing.

One nice thing that emerged from Rogue Trader was that we found that an additional party member was an excellent motivating factor for the players. Rescue the princess? Meh. Rescue the princess and have her serve as a gunnery officer? Now you're talking. It also makes redshirts vastly less disposable, since they're suddenly not just Redshirt Number 43; they're now "the princess", you worked hard to get her onto your ship, and if you lose her you lose your +10 to hit on the port macrocannons.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

daenruel87 wrote:Explain to me what we are actually modeling because I don't know Skies of Arcadia. What are the PC's in this scenario? Do they run the ship Star Wars style where they run down hallways to fix explosions in the engine room before jumping into the Gunner seat or do they run the ship Star Trek style where they sit and declare actions that whole crews of offscreen cast will make happen.

Describe to me what we are emulating, what it should look like.
Fair enough. I'll try to explain as much as I can without getting into spoilers.

Skies of Arcadia is a jRPG for the Dreamcast and Gamecube. The big attraction of the game is that all of the continents are floating and broken up. So any kind of travel, trade, or even industry (like fishing) are done on floating airships. You get one immediately at the start of the game and in addition to using the airship to travel all around the world and explore like a traditional D&D-derived RPG hero, you also occasionally fight battles in it. You go through several designs along the course of the game, with the two major ones being a fishing boat converted into a surprisingly strong combat vessel and a super-prototype that can eventually take on the civilization-destroying superweapons of the setting in fair combat.

In addition to the design paradigms I outlined in the first post, with exceptions noted, implementations specific to Skies of Arcadia include:

[*] A huge emphasis on exploration and discovery in the airship. You are routinely given vague clues and odd-looking landscapes to investigate and hope to find a landmark or historical site that no one has discovered before. In addition to the completely plot-changing landmarks like finding a lost city or establishing contact with another civilization, there are also minor ones like finding rare species or wreckages of famous ships. You get a ton of money off of these.
[*] The vast majority of combat in the game isn't ship-to-ship combat. Most of it is plotline based, but if you're really hungry for it you can engage aircraft and flying superpowers outside of it. 95% of the time, though, combat is your standard on-foot personal melee combat. Hell, most of the time when you fight on your airship it's to repel boarders.
[*] Combat is divided into turns and phases. Each PC you have gets a phase. You can perform one action per phase and per turn. Certain game effects let people focus their firepower onto one phase, PCs coordinate in a turn to see who operates when. PCs get an equal number of turns to the enemy. Both the PC and the enemy has to finish a phase before moving onto the next one, though the order in which they do their actions is determined by ship parameters and the tactical situation. There's no such notion as missed turns or extra turns.
[*] Combat is heavily based on tactical maneuvering. People try to angle their craft or giant supermonster body all over the damn place to use their best attacks and to dodge the foe. If your positioning is good, you can bring your best equipment to bear and get a damage bonus. If it's bad, you do less damage, take more damage, and in certain cases get automatic misses -- you can't use the front cannon if your enemy is behind you, after all. Maneuvering is mostly on autopilot with the computer determining the tactical maneuvering, though oftentimes your dialog box choices, ship parameters, and actions taken during previous turns and phases affect your maneuvering.
[*] The other big aspect to combat is your Spirit Points. You get a fixed amount of them every turn and certain actions add to, take away from, or do nothing with spirit points. You need Spirit Points to do anything that's not focusing (adds SP), guarding, or using an item. More powerful spells and weapons require more spirit points. So unless you completely outclass your opponent, they're a resource that needs to be preserved and it isn't wise or even possible to just alpha-strike your opponent the first chance you get.
[*] Crew members are found and join up via the power of plot rather than hiring them from a tavern Might and Magic-style.
[*] Crew members don't level up or digivolve at all. They provide exactly the same level of asskicking when you first recruit them as at the end of the game.
[*] Your ships can perform with a skeleton crew consisting of mostly the PCs and a few plot-directed crew members. There's no reason you'd want to do this, but it's there.
[*] Ship combat works off of Critical Existence Failure. Until you reach zero hit points none of your crew is at risk and your ship doesn't perform any better or worse.
[*] Ships don't exactly level up. You get a small handful of finite items that slightly increase ship parameters like hit points and defense. The majority of upgrades are done with new crew members, new equipment, new spells to shoot out of your magic cannon, and the stats of your main party. The biggest factor is your ship-only equipment, which is gained from shops and defeating foes.
[*] The badassery of your PCs affect how your ship performs in combat. They determine how strong the main cannons, super-cannon, and magic cannons operate and also what kind of shells the magic cannon can fire. They also slightly affect the defense and maneuverability of your ship. The biggest boon stronger PCs impart is more spirit points.
[*] Some of your crew-members have passive abilities, some of them have actives. Once per combat you can use a crew-member with an active ability. These abilities are things like 'refill all HP' or 'increase the hit-% of torpedos' or 'protect against magic for one turn'.
[*] All ship battles are one-on-one in this game. There's also no notion of alternate targets or subsystem damage. It's a fight in a monster closet against a teleporting gelatinous cube.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

In fact, for people interested, here's a Let's Play of the game right here.
http://lparchive.org/Skies-of-Arcadia-Legends/
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by MGuy »

I'm familiar with SoA. It was the best game I'd played on Dreamcast, right up there with Power Stone. Played through it twice. Didn't know it got ported to Gamecube though.
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Post by GnomeWorks »

This game sounds awesome.

How I haven't heard of it sooner baffles me.
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Post by Parthenon »

Your biggest problem I can see is magic.

For those that haven't played, all PCs gets access to magic spells and they are used in face to face battle. Most of these can be used during ship battle, with each casting of a spell affecting the whole ship or is used as a single magic attack against the enemy ship. This is possible because the magic system is way more limited than a TTRPG could ever be - there are only 11 different effects in various targets and effectiveness- one of which is damage in multiple colours.

So, there are a couple of healing spells and they can heal huge amounts of damage in one spell, or you can silence the whole enemy ship for a couple of turns, or cast a fireball as a fire aligned cannon attack, etc.

For creating a TTRPG version either you heavily limit which spells are available during ship battles or you get into huge arguments about what happens.

Maybe you could have the only way to have magic affect ships is by either the magic cannon or channeling the support spell into the ship through the engine. That way you have the PC on guns sprinting through the ship trying to reach the engine to speed it up and similar actions coming through mechanics. Then, one of the possible upgrades is improving the engine/cannon to allow new spells to be used.


I absolutely love the game- it's a brilliant and motivational story with sympathetic protagonists that celebrates friendship and adventure.
I'm still frustrated about not getting Piastol as part of my crew. And what I wouldn't give to play through again with Fina in the pirate costume at the end...
Last edited by Parthenon on Thu Jun 26, 2014 1:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Yup, the short-range melee combat/ship combat transparency of the magic system is one of the things that has to be discussed. I can think of a few broad ways to handle it.

[*] Make the two systems completely incompatible. You can still have wizards firing fireballs off of the deck. And they can either be mostly or completely ineffective or only effective in certain instances -- such as if they're archwizards attacking wooden junks. If you want to blast someone with a fireball from a magic cannon, you need to have a Fireball Shooter.
[*] Have certain game effects be tagged as [Artillery] which lets you use them through certain equipment. A Magic Cannon is what turbocharges your lightning bolt or wall of ice enough to use in vehicle-to-vehicle combat. If you don't have any powers tagged as [Artillery] then you need to use the 'regular' equipment. If you don't want certain classes to feel short in the pants you can make it so that certain pieces of equipment have prerequisites in order to use properly. See below.
[*] If you want to use a power with a piece of equipment, you need to use the Create-A-Power System or select off of a huge catalog with close matches. This will take up a number of extra pages proportional to the number of powers in your system, so you'll need to think of a way to cut down on the number of pieces. So if you want your Shock Trooper line of powers to matter for vehicle combat, you need to outfit your vehicle with two of Spiked Armor Plating, Force Repulsors, or Shield Jammers. Using your armor and engine together for Sniper Mode requires you to have Hide in Plain Sight, 5d6 Sneak Attack, and Far Shot to unlock any, much, or all of its functionality.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by fectin »

Do you want to finagle this into an existing system, or create it whole-cloth as a new game engine?
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Well, as usual, we're just using 3E D&D as a model since it's the game everyone's most familiar with and helps ground the ideas and examples. Also 3E D&D has a number of features and game assumptions built-in that would make the project much easier off of the bat. You know, things like a unified CR system, exponential advancement, a huge list of powers and magical items and even feats to plunder... things like that.

That said, if another system would work better for this project like Earthdawn or Spelljammer or WHFB or Mechwarrior or hell, even WoD (lol) then I'm more than happy to switch models. I'm also more than cool to keep things completely system-agnostic and just discuss game design paradigms.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Atmo »

Someone is doing a Skies Fate Core game. I don't know if he is still with the project ongoing, only if someone check the G+ Fate community for it.
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