Eclipse Phase: alternative rules ?

silva · Post by **silva** » Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:52 pm

Antumbra, Im already a fan of Transhuman Space. I find it much better as a pure transhumanist hard-sci setting than Eclipse Phase ( which is almost “sci-fantasy” for me). My intention here is really bring EP a little more near THS, by swapping the bits I find silly (TITANS, E.Ts, STARGATES, etc) by more… “grounded” (?) ones (newton machines, rogue AIs, xox-smugglers, nanoplagues, infosocialists, terrorists, crazy cultists, etc).

Also, I cant stand the name “Firewall” for an covert ops organization in the far future, for obvious reasons. Any suggestions ?

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:53 pm

Lord Mistborn wrote:
codeGlaze wrote:Gotta say, that post they made against the MRA fans was pretty well stated.
Can I get a link to that, I need my daily dose of rage

Frank already linked it.

nockermensch · Post by **nockermensch** » Fri Jun 06, 2014 4:29 pm

Lord Mistborn wrote:
codeGlaze wrote:Gotta say, that post they made against the MRA fans was pretty well stated.
Can I get a link to that, I need my daily dose of rage

Check at the thread Frank linked for SpikedYum's post. I just got my weekly dose of rage from it.

silva · Post by **silva** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 6:51 pm

One thing Im finding difficult to accept in the setting the resleeving concept as a normally accepted everyday practice. I mean, I understand its use in emergency situations of life and death but not as a everyday affair in most societies. "Resleeving" feels to me like dying anyway, and giving birth to a new being. (who guarantees the "ego" at the new morph is really me ? )

Nobody else had this impression ?

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:00 pm

Do you also find the philosophy of self at odds with Star Trek's transporters, fairy tale transformation spells, and the entire genre of brain-switching?

John Magnum · Post by **John Magnum** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:01 pm

Sleeping to me feels like dying, and giving birth to a new being. Who guarantees the ego when I wake up is really me? Just because I think I'm me, and everyone I interact with recognizes me and acts as though it's me, doesn't mean it's REALLY me. For what does it even mean to really BE someone???????

silva · Post by **silva** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:10 pm

But when I wake up from sleep, its still my body. I can feel it - the wound in my arm that was aching yesterday is till aching today, as is every other organic process.

How can you prove its yourself if there is nothing around to prove it ?

John Magnum · Post by **John Magnum** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:12 pm

You've never gone to sleep satiated and woken up hungry? Or needing to piss? Or whatever? Or by "every other organic process" did you mean... something other than "every"? Is "using radically different definitions of common words" just one of those things you do now?

Laertes · Post by **Laertes** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:13 pm

I've only ever come across resleeving in the novel Altered Carbon, one of the more brilliantly unpleasant dystopian books I've read recently. Did Eclipse Phase take it from Altered Carbon or is there a common ur-source?

silva · Post by **silva** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:13 pm

*EDIT*: John, I concede your point is interesting. Sleeping in fact results in a lack of continuity that looks akin to the one in resleeving process. But look my point below to Virgil (the copy and paste thing). Dont you think there is a definite difference between lack of continuity on the same organism, and lack of continuity resulting in a copy ?

virgil wrote:Do you also find the philosophy of self at odds with Star Trek's transporters, fairy tale transformation spells, and the entire genre of brain-switching?

Teletransportation is a transportation. Aka: you take matter from one point and send it to another.

But brain uploading is a "copy and paste" process. If youre copying something, it means the original is left behind. Dont you find this bizarre ?

K · Post by K » Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:16 pm

virgil wrote:Do you also find the philosophy of self at odds with Star Trek's transporters, fairy tale transformation spells, and the entire genre of brain-switching?

I do.

Actual philosophy classes teach the philosophy of self by talking about transporters. It's pretty fun.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:23 pm

silva wrote:
virgil wrote:Do you also find the philosophy of self at odds with Star Trek's transporters, fairy tale transformation spells, and the entire genre of brain-switching?
Teletransportation is a transportation. Aka: you take matter from one point and send it to another.

But brain uploading is a "copy and paste" process. If youre copying something, it means the original is left behind. Dont you find this bizarre ?

Transporters are "cut and paste", and there is little stopping them from 'pasting' multiple times in which none have priority in their claim of being them. You don't find that bizarre?

silva · Post by **silva** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:25 pm

Well, if teletransporters are "cut and paste" then yeah, I also find it bizarre. I always thought that teletransporters were simply carrying matter from one point to another, instead of "copying" it.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:25 pm

K wrote:
virgil wrote:Do you also find the philosophy of self at odds with Star Trek's transporters, fairy tale transformation spells, and the entire genre of brain-switching?
I do.

Actual philosophy classes teach the philosophy of self by talking about transporters. It's pretty fun.

Oh, it's a fascinating question, don't get me wrong. But it's not something that would make me dislike Eclipse Phase but not Star Trek (or vice versa), the way silva's arguing.

K · Post by K » Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:30 pm

Laertes wrote:I've only ever come across resleeving in the novel Altered Carbon, one of the more brilliantly unpleasant dystopian books I've read recently. Did Eclipse Phase take it from Altered Carbon or is there a common ur-source?

Brain uploading and getting digital copies of brains in new bodies is a common trope of the New Space Opera writers, and Eclipse Phase specifically mentions that they are aping the New Space Opera writers like Ken McCloud, Alistair Reynolds, Iain Banks, Charlie Stross, etc.

Personally, I think Iain Banks is the best for this kind of thing, but then I think he is the best for everything.

Laertes · Post by **Laertes** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:35 pm

K wrote:Brain uploading and getting digital copies of brains in new bodies is a common trope of the New Space Opera writers, and Eclipse Phase specifically mentions that they are aping the New Space Opera writers like Ken McCloud, Alistair Reynolds, Iain Banks, Charlie Stross, etc.

It's a common trope; I was just wondering where the name comes from.

K wrote:Personally, I think Iain Banks is the best for this kind of thing, but then I think he is the best for everything.

I really dislike the Culture, but I adore Banks's other works. It's just a personal impulse; there's no doubt that he's a good writer.

silva · Post by **silva** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:20 pm

virgil wrote:Oh, it's a fascinating question, don't get me wrong. But it's not something that would make me dislike Eclipse Phase but not Star Trek (or vice versa), the way silva's arguing.

I dont exactly dislike EP because of it. I just find it a bit unplausible overall. If such practice was relegated to fringe or radical societies perhaps it wouldnt bother me so much, but being everyday practice for the entire (trans)humanity feels kind of forced to me.

On another topic, I also dislike the game reliance on hiding secrets from the players. Some secrets can potentially change the game premise so much as to cause the game to swap genres entirely if revealed (the ETI thing seems specially offensive in this department). Like that Engel game where characters were supposed to play angels in a christian post-apocalyptic world until the GM revealed midway that they were actually nanotech-enhanced humans posing as angels in service of a powerful "God AI".... and the game just went from a mythologic adventure to a plain sci-fi one.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:29 pm

Hey silva, if you ever want to do an OSSR I want it to be "Expedition to the Barrier Peaks."

RadiantPhoenix · Post by **RadiantPhoenix** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:31 pm

John Magnum wrote:Sleeping to me feels like dying, and giving birth to a new being. Who guarantees the ego when I wake up is really me? Just because I think I'm me, and everyone I interact with recognizes me and acts as though it's me, doesn't mean it's REALLY me. For what does it even mean to really BE someone???????

K wrote:Brain uploading and getting digital copies of brains in new bodies is a common trope of the New Space Opera writers, and Eclipse Phase specifically mentions that they are aping the New Space Opera writers like Ken McCloud, Alistair Reynolds, Iain Banks, Charlie Stross, etc.

Sufficiently Advanced has people who decided to print out multiple copies of themselves for redundancy, as well as people who refused to be printed out and now live in the computers.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:31 pm

silva wrote:
virgil wrote:Oh, it's a fascinating question, don't get me wrong. But it's not something that would make me dislike Eclipse Phase but not Star Trek (or vice versa), the way silva's arguing.
I dont exactly dislike EP because of it. I just find it a bit unplausible overall. If such practice was relegated to fringe or radical societies perhaps it wouldnt bother me so much, but being everyday practice for the entire (trans)humanity feels kind of forced to me.

If it's viable at all in the setting, then the politically diverse humanity will spread the practice and influence culture as a whole. Also, this is a setting with star gates, nanoforges, and all manner of other things; so drawing the line of plausibility at easy ego-transfers being rarely used seems unplausible to me.

Desdan_Mervolam · Post by **Desdan_Mervolam** » Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:58 pm

I was in a EP game for a while which mostly broke up because the system isn't very good. I personally have existential problems with Re-sleeving, but it's a role-playing game, it's fictional nature means I put this aside for the purposes of the game. If you aren't willing to meet fictions premises half-way, you shouldn't bother with that fiction.

Anyway, it's not like re-sleeving is extremely common anyway. They do mention that there are a lot of people in datamorphs sitting on a decades-long waiting list for any physical body at all, even a shitty synth one. They just can't make them fast enough. Unless you are rich, work for a megacorp(Or otherwise megalithic organization) or work for Firewall, it will probably never come up.

Dogbert · Post by **Dogbert** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 6:24 am

silva wrote:One thing Im finding difficult to accept in the setting the resleeving concept as a normally accepted everyday practice.

How implausible, right? But you know, "stranger than fiction" and all that...

silva wrote:(who guarantees the "ego" at the new morph is really me ? )

And questions like that are precisely what transhumanist science fiction is all about.

If I remember right, EP is precisely a game about transhumanism. Removing transhumanism from EP would be like removing magic and murderhoboing from d&d.

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:13 pm

K wrote:Personally, I think Iain Banks is the best for this kind of thing, but then I think he is the best for everything.

Was the best for everything.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:21 pm

So, just so I have this straight, silva likes that Eclipse Phase is a (relatively) hard sci-fi space opera setting but hates every single thing about the setting itself that makes it distinctive from, say, GURPS Space.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:33 pm

Ancient History wrote:So, just so I have this straight, silva likes that Eclipse Phase is a (relatively) hard sci-fi space opera setting but hates every single thing about the setting itself that makes it distinctive from, say, GURPS Space.

This is the man that's gone out of his way to detail why Shadowrun is a terrible game except for its actual (and numerous) flaws, which he seems to defend.