Yes, yet another Fighter Suggestion

[TarlSS]

I've kept up with the fighter debate in the past year, but you can't keep track of everything

How about copying the mechanic from Iron Heroes of allowing high level fighters swap out feats?

Something like, a level 10 fighter may swap out all his fighter feats once per day at a set time... like noon, dusk, or dawn.

Bookkeeping nightmare, I know. But the same deal for a wizard with his spells, honestly.

A 15th level fighter can swap out any of his feats 3/day

And at 20th level, a fighter automatically qualifies for any prerequisites for all (Non-Epic) fighter feats. Crazy? Yes, but that's the point.

This means a 20th level fighter has 10 hotswappable slots, and the same librarian's advantage any spellcaster has. A toploaded fighter will get pretty crazy with broken loops and what haves you, but not any more than a wizard with a full array of 1-9 spells I imagine.

[Catharz]

Just use the RoW fighter

[Judging__Eagle]

1173985117[/unixtime]]Just use the RoW fighter

What Catharz said.

Also, Catharz, you a guy or a girl?

I know there are no girls on the interwebs, but I at least like to call people by what they want to pretend to be.

Okay, I lie, I know of a girl on the interwebs, her name was alex and she was intentionally whiny at times, but always funny.

[Username17]

The problem is that as written there aren't Fighter Feats that you give a damn about. At 20th level you could seriously have all the Fighter Feats from the PHB, the Complete Warrior, the Complete Adventurer, the Complete Fiasco, the Complete Whatever, and so on - and it wouldn't matter. You're 20th level and the only things that'll let you take out a Balor are bizarre pieces of equipment that you have no ability to actually get.

It doesn't matter if you have Grenadier or Weapon Focus. It seriously doesn't. The only feats that make any difference to your overall success are weird tactical feats from obscure books that your DM may not even own.

Regardless of how many printed Fighter feats you give players, or how much you allow them to swap those feats around, the fact remains that a Fighter can't beat a Balor unless the DM gives him an Artifact Sword that gives him sufficient resistances and attack power that he has a chance to actually beat a Balor.

-Username17

[Cielingcat]

Or a Splitting Bow, since that literally doubles your damage.

[Brobdingnagian]

Or if the DM says to the fighter, "You've spontaneously become a Cleric of Pelor with all the coolest spells prepared. Kick some Balor butt."

[RandomCasualty]

1174067579[/unixtime]]The problem is that as written there aren't Fighter Feats that you give a damn about. At 20th level you could seriously have all the Fighter Feats from the PHB, the Complete Warrior, the Complete Adventurer, the Complete Fiasco, the Complete Whatever, and so on - and it wouldn't matter. You're 20th level and the only things that'll let you take out a Balor are bizarre pieces of equipment that you have no ability to actually get.

Yeah, the main problem is that high level battles turn almost exclusively into creatures throwing spell like abilities.

It's not that fighters can't win in melee, it's that melee seems to fade away in favor of fly-by spell attacks. Fighters don't need better melee ability, they need stuff that forces enemies to melee with them.

[Brobdingnagian]

Hence, RoW.

[RandomCasualty]

1174365068[/unixtime]]Hence, RoW.

Well honestly I dont' think the RoW fighter really forces people to melee him. It encourages you to fight him at long range, since you basically have no chance against him once he's within melee or even foil action range. When using RoW's stacking DR rules, a well built fighter is going to chew through any melee creature (including a closet troll).

Of course, the RoW fighter still doesn't have any great counter to battlefield control spells, which ironically, now everyone has to use on him, because engaging him in melee is nothing short of suicide. So the only strategy you can use is hit and run or battlefield control, which was the two styles the fighter needed the most help against.

[Brobdingnagian]

The RoW Fighter could handle hit and run easy by using a 'readied' action which was really a delayed action to foil someone trying to escape after the hit part. As for battlefield control...

Well, we can't have everything. Though, if the raging, screaming barbarian with an oversized axe was running at me, and my choices to escape were...

1) Deal with the really shady-looking, lightly armoured fellow who's staring at me menacingly.

2) Deal with the guy in robes holding a book who could probably kill me by looking at me.

3) Deal with the guy in full armour and a holy symbol who seems to have 'accidentally' grabbed himself an army of undead at his back.

or

4) Deal with the guy in full armour with like seven weapons who's standing at the ready...

I'd go with 4 (the fighter) because he looks like he'd be the easiest to get around. I'd be wrong, but I wouldn't know that.

[Catharz]

1174590742[/unixtime]]

1174365068[/unixtime]]Hence, RoW.

Well honestly I dont' think the RoW fighter really forces people to melee him. It encourages you to fight him at long range, since you basically have no chance against him once he's within melee or even foil action range. When using RoW's stacking DR rules, a well built fighter is going to chew through any melee creature (including a closet troll).

Of course, the RoW fighter still doesn't have any great counter to battlefield control spells, which ironically, now everyone has to use on him, because engaging him in melee is nothing short of suicide. So the only strategy you can use is hit and run or battlefield control, which was the two styles the fighter needed the most help against.

Using Sniper, Danger sense, and Blind Fighting will help when you're in an acid fog or something. I'd probably use Problem Solver for the blind fighting. If your enemies have total concealment and are out of your tremorsense and blindsight range, you can still Listen for them, move, and shoot.

[Judging__Eagle]

Zen Archery:

Anyone you can hear, you can attack.

Great to combo with Point Blank Shot, Sniper and Two Weapon Fighting.

Start pulling +1 Magebane darts out of your bag of Dart holding full of 200 +1 Various types of Bane darts and let the caster have it from 60 feet away (lvl 11 gives you 6 attacks; if he's within 60 feet, you're dealing +11 damage per dart due to Point Blank Shot and Sniper synergy. So +66 (plus str, +1 enchancement, +2d6 Bane, +1d4 weapon damage) damage a round.

Average damage from one attack is 11 + 1 + 5 (str 20 is pretty easy at lvl 11) + [3-16] = 20-33 damage per hit.

If 3 hit, that's 60-99 damage. You might not get 3 hits, but those migh be enough to shut down the caster.

Make sure you either already have mage hunter or spend your Problem Solver on it, you want tons of damage right away to make them fail and keep failing their concentration checks. Although, if you get two rounds of attacks, the mage is dead even if you're missing on half your attacks.

Really, you don't need many bane types at higher levels. Just three.

Magebane in adamantine/silver/stee/wood/stone flavours for outsider/caster slaying is obvious. You won't, however, bypass the alignment DR of tougher fiends =/. The adamantine weapon is for casters that use Stoneskin or gishes that wear adamantine armour.

As well as constructbane (adamantine weapon plz!) and undeadbane (bludgeouning weapon, get oils of Weapon of Disruption for tougher targets).

Anything else you can just beat up or use your mage-bane stuff on.



The reason I suggested darts over a bow and arrows is that the darts are easier to pull and fire (sheath your melee weapon, loosen your sheild, then start drawing and throwing darts). Also, you get more attacks per round.

With a caster layering spells like Mirror Image and other stuff that utterly bones your amazing to-hit, you'll need lots of attacks that will hit to make any of your attacks actually connect.

Blind fight might also be decent snce it prevent stuff from moving around on you without you noticing.

Except wizards can fly, or use boots of levitation and a hand of the magi to keep their invisible selves off of the ground while they do stuff.

[Brobdingnagian]

But Blindsense doesn't require them to be on the ground, so you can track sixty feet into the air. This is assuming you're close enough for PBS to come into effect.

[Judging__Eagle]

Yeah, but that means that you'll still need lots of attacks b/c Miss Chance will be tryng to bone you.

I was reffering to the Tremorsense aspect of the Blind Fight feat.

[RandomCasualty]

1174591818[/unixtime]]The RoW Fighter could handle hit and run easy by using a 'readied' action which was really a delayed action to foil someone trying to escape after the hit part. As for battlefield control...

Well, we can't have everything.

Well, here's a question, what class (or monster type) is supposed to beat the battlefield control mage?

It seems to me that battlefield control is like the ultimate style and for the most part unbeatable.

[Catharz]

1174838134[/unixtime]]

Well, here's a question, what class (or monster type) is supposed to beat the battlefield control mage?

It seems to me that battlefield control is like the ultimate style and for the most part unbeatable.

The rogue.

[Brobdingnagian]

See also:

The Paladin/Cleric/Ranger/Druid/Wizard/Archivist.

Also known as the Rogue.

[RandomCasualty]

1174842415[/unixtime]]
The rogue.

How do you figure? I mean, wizards can cast spells to give themselves blindsight, so it's rather easy to detect hiding rogues.

And a rogue doesn't have any special means of getting out of a solid fog or a forcecage than anyone else does.

[Catharz]

1175046844[/unixtime]]

1174842415[/unixtime]]
The rogue.

How do you figure? I mean, wizards can cast spells to give themselves blindsight, so it's rather easy to detect hiding rogues.

And a rogue doesn't have any special means of getting out of a solid fog or a forcecage than anyone else does.

1) The question wasn't 'what class beats the BFCM,' and so my answer doesn't have to reflect mechanics as they are.

2) Rogues these days have little necessities like feats which let them hide from blindsight. They can (by some people's reckoning) use skills like Disable Device and Escape Artist to get out of force cages. The purpose of the rogue is to avoid the battlefield effects either by catching the mage before he throws them down or by being elsewhere. They then sneak up on the mage and take advantage of the combination of low HP and high SAD.

IMO, tactically, D&D should be a bit like of a game of rock/paper/scissors. The warrior is the rock, the magic-user is the paper, and the rogue is the scissors. It's easy to take that too far, and I certainly don't think that it should be taken to the point of auto-wins. I just mean that each type should have a bit of a tactical edge.

The magic-user owns the rock and is cut by the scissors for reasons discussed above. The fighter smashes the scissors because the rock isn't a soft target.

[Brobdingnagian]

I thought D&D was supposed to be a game of rock/paper/scissors as you described. I mean, that's kind of how I always thought of it.

[RandomCasualty]

1175050681[/unixtime]]
2) Rogues these days have little necessities like feats which let them hide from blindsight. They can (by some people's reckoning) use skills like Disable Device and Escape Artist to get out of force cages.

On a side note, due to the latest FAQ, you cannot disable a force cage.

Escape artist still works of course, but the DC is like 80 or something.

<b>Is the alarm spell a trap, and if so can a rogue disable it?</b>

No and no. Unfortunately, the rules don’t clearly define a
category of spells that qualify as traps, so we must rely on
individual spell descriptions to adjudicate this question.
Despite the alarm spell’s similarity to glyph of warding—
they’re both long-lasting defensive spells used to protect an
area—the spell description for alarm doesn’t contain any
details about how to disable it, nor is it listed in the Disable
Device skill description as a spell that creates a disarmable trap
(PHB 72). Thus, we must conclude that the alarm spell should
not be treated as a trap and cannot be disarmed with Disable
Device.

[Cielingcat]

But... Forcecage is a trap. It's actually listed as one of the CR 10 traps you can encounter when paired with Summon Monster VII.

[Judging__Eagle]

No, the magical item that casts the Forcecage spell can be disabled.

Not the Cage itself.

Sort of how you can disable an item that casts Wall of Fire; but no the effect itself once it's sprung.

[MrWaeseL]

Unfortunately traps aren't well-defined in the rules. A Wall of Fire traps you, so you could argue that it is a trap.

[Brobdingnagian]

Or you could UMD a scroll of Dispel Magic and bam! Rogue's out. Or if you're using the Wish economy, a scroll of AMF.