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Akula
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Post by Akula »

Kaelik wrote:
Akula wrote:That wooshing sound everyone just heard was the subtext flying over Kaelik's head. Yes Kaelik, the ability is never fair in practice, that is kinda the point, but the debuff is the same for both participants so the fight is "fair".
I'm just going to leave these two sentences because the first one is explaining how your point was that it isn't supposed to be fair, and your second one is you then declaring that it totally is fair again.

And those contradict each other. If you are going to defend it as not supposed to be fair, don't immediately turn around and defend it as actually fair.
You ever hear the quote, "In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets, and steal loaves of bread."? Equal application is a kind of fairness, it is not a going to give fair outcomes. You seem to be unable to grasp this point: fairness depends on how you define fair.
Here let me summarize. A duel is between two people. So an ability that excludes any number of people from a fight, even one, it actually infinitly more duel like than an ability that excludes no one. And by the way, that isn't the only way to use Poppy's ult, so a non zero number of times Poppies ult will be used to exclude someone from a fight, as opposed to NEVER EVER DUEL COMMANDER who will never ever use the ability to exclude someone from a fight.
A duel is a fight between two people, so the ability that sometimes results in a duel but is often used to do something completely different is a worse duel than the ability that is always a fight between two people? After all it isn't like poppy's target gets any protection from poppy's team, so it is never a duel under your own definition if poppy's team joins in. Having a fight between dueled people is more important than excluding some non-zero number of people.
No, this is the you not being able to read thing popping up again. I said less likely than a taunt that didn't risk giving AD to the other team. Because there exist a non zero number of situations you would not use this ult in a teamfight, and there exist zero situations that you would use this ability but wouldn't use a taunt that didn't give AD to the enemy. Less Likely is not Unlikely.
We agree that there is never a situation where you would use duel that would not be a better situation to use duel+ in. But duel+ is a better skill so that is like saying that better skills are better. Also LC normally itemizes so she can duel at the start of fights, meaning that ill advised duels happen more often than you think.
Akula wrote:
Kaelik wrote:Since I'm not the one claiming people should switch game specifically because the champion design is so much better maybe the burden of proof isn't on me and if people bring up shitty champion design to try to convince me to switch to their game that is their fault?
That isn't what you are doing, this:
Kaelik before wrote:So Dota has shitty champ design.
Is a positive statement that requires proof, and when you say this:
Kaelik same post a little further on wrote:Notice how that is way the fuck more tightly designed than "Uses Ult to get AD bonuses that break the RNG."
The implications is not that you are saying, "I find your arguments that Dota has better design unconvincing" but instead that you are saying, "Dota has bad design, and League of Legends has better design than dota." Both of which require proof.
You are right. There is no possible way that the implication of what I said could be that I found his arguments unconvincing.
When he says game x is better than game y, the burden of proof is on him, when you say game y is better than game x the burden of proof is on you. And you straight up say that league is better than dota in the sections that I quoted.
I mean, first he said:
kaelik, you said you look at champion design, but you don't play Dota?
The design is way better.
And then when I asked what he meant he specifically brought up Legion Commander as his argument for better champion design, and then specifically went over Legion Commander's abilities, and then I specifically responded by quoting his arguments about how Legion commander was a better designed champion, and then I proceeded to make comments specifically addressing his specific arguments for how Legion Commander was a champion that demonstrated better design.
Then you asserted that Legion Commander was badly designed, you have to prove this. And then talked about how Dota, not LC, but Dota itself was badly designed. You also have to prove that.

Akula wrote:This post is basically just you being super ignorant about dota and projecting your ignorance onto others. Unlike your 0 games played of Dota, I have played hundreds of hours of LoL.
Yes yes, you have a big dick. Your dick is huge. We get it.
My dick is huge, but not big enough for your mouth. Experience with Dota is a condition precedent to discussing Dota.
Your actual statement wrote:spamable nuke or buff + gapcloser + CC
Udyr, Darius, Shaco, Pantheon, Renekton, Fizz, Jax, Maokai, Riven, Cait, Elise, Graves, Hecarim, Jayce, Kassadin, Kennen, Kha'zix, LeBlanc, Lissandra, Poppy, Sejuani, Skarner, Talon, Vayne, Ziggs, Aatrox, Zed, Vi, Yasou, Zac, Thresh, Braum.

So like actually 31 champs. And that was leaving in a lot of bullshit and being super generous to you, like counting half second 15% slows, silences, blinds, and brief two unit displacemets as real CC, and counting champs that have multiple things on a single ability, even though you implied that the three things was a comprehensive list of their abilities, instead of just three things a champ has in addition to 3-4 other things they can also do. And god, I felt sick inside when I counted Thresh's fucking Flay as a "spammable nuke" and included him because that is literally the dumbest thing that could ever possibly be said ever, but I let it slide because I am so fucking generous.

And you still just straight up lied about a bunch of shit like Fiora's and Katarina's and Nidalee's CC and Twisted Fates gap closer.
Ammumu has a gap closing CC called bandage toss, a spamable nuke called tantrum, and a AoE CC ult. He isn't on your list because? And what does Twisted Fate's ult do if not close the gap? You deleted a bunch of heroes that fit my criteria for no reason. Though I do concede that I made a mistake about Fiora, Katarina, and Nidalee having CC. I was wrong to have them on my list.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

Akula wrote:You ever hear the quote, "In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets, and steal loaves of bread."? Equal application is a kind of fairness, it is not a going to give fair outcomes. You seem to be unable to grasp this point: fairness depends on how you define fair.
Have you ever understood that quote. Because spoiler alert, the entire fucking point of that quote was to demonstrate that the law was not in fact acting equally.
Akula wrote:A duel is a fight between two people, so the ability that sometimes results in a duel but is often used to do something completely different is a worse duel than the ability that is always a fight between two people? After all it isn't like poppy's target gets any protection from poppy's team, so it is never a duel under your own definition if poppy's team joins in. Having a fight between dueled people is more important than excluding some non-zero number of people.
You have the emphasis on the wrong syllableword. The key word is two people. If there is a third person involved ever at any point, it is not a duel. If your ability actively encourages you to use it only when other people are around it is not a fucking duel ever. If Poppy is caught out chasing a kill she can duel the person she is chasing, and finish them off before dying. This is creating a duel where otherwise there would not be one by excluding people. Poppy often uses her ult to fucking 1v1 someone while her team does other things. Thus poppy ever at all uses her ability to actually duel people when without her ability no duel would occur. As opposed to an ability that does not ever do that.
When he says game x is better than game y, the burden of proof is on him, when you don't say game y is better than game x the burden of proof is on not you but I try to pin it on you anyway because I am an idiot. And you don't straight up say that league is better than dota in the sections that I quoted, but I am too stupid to understand that.
Fixed that for you.
Then you asserted that Legion Commander was badly designed, you have to prove this.
No, then I asserted that Rammus was a better designed taunt champion, and I did prove this.
And then talked about how Dota, not LC, but Dota itself was badly designed. You also have to prove that.
No I fucking didn't. Watch.

Retarded Monkey Shit That Happens To Be Named Akula For Reasons Totally Unrelated To The Fact That I Think You Are Stupid: "Hey you person who says you enjoyed playing [obscure class based RPG game A] over [obscure class based game B] because the classes are better designed!"

Proxy For Me: Yes?

RMSTHTBNAFRTUTTFTITYAS: You should play D&D 3.5 instead, because it has the best class design EVER.

PFM: Why do you say that?

RMSTHTBNAFRTUTTFTITYAS: Well it has this one class, called the Monk, and this class has a whole bunch of eclectic abilities that are all mostly useless and don't synergize well and it has defensive abilities that help it watch the rest of the party die but no offensive abilities to contribute.

PFM: Hmmm. That actually sounds like D&D 3.5 has terrible class design. One might even call it shitty.

Person Who Is Proxy For You The Real Akula And Not The One Named For A Reason Unrelated To Your Idiocy: WAAARRRRGARRRAAALLLLLBBBBBARRRRRGGGGLLLL! You are and idiot because you have insulted my precious vija gameTableTop RPG. How can you possibly say that D&D 3.5 has shitty class design when you have not purchased the game and read it cover to cover and played it for years like I have! You are not entitled to an opinion on the whole game!

PFM: Well that is nice and all, but my comment was pretty obviously directed at the specific argument just fucking made to convince me, and only a commentary on the specific championclass design presented so far as representing the best that the game had to offer, and not a declaration of total knowledge of the game.

PWIPFYTRAANTONFARUTYI: But when I take your response to their arguments completely out of context and refuse to understand the obvious flow of the conversation I can make it sound like you tried to make a definitive statement about the entire game. Doesn't that mean you actually did say the thing I want to argue against and that you are wrong?

PFM: No. It does not. Let me construct a hypothetical example conversation to show you that will have absurd sentences for names and will recursively end in the proxy for me suggesting he make a proxy argument.

See.
Ammumu has a gap closing CC called bandage toss, a spamable nuke called tantrum. He isn't on your list because?
Ammumu, coming relatively early in your list, I deleted because he so clearly does not fit the implication of your stupid accusation that the three abilities every champions gets are the three things you said. I quickly abandoned that method when I realized it would remove too many champions, so I started letting champions stay on like hecarim with his "gab closer" that is a slight movement speed, and his "cc" that is a gently tapping discplacement when you use your "gap closer" on the same ability, even though you'll note that gives him a whole nother ability slot open to have something completely different.

Or is your contention that someone who has a 1 second bandage toss that does lots of damage and 2 other abilities on W/E is exactly the same as someone who has a 1 second bandage toss that does lots of damage and has two other completely different abilities on W/E?
And what does Twisted Fate's ult do if not close the gap?
Teleport him to a completely fucking different place that he was no where near before on a delay. I mean, when you are chasing someone, you want to close the gap. When you are half way across the map, the teleport spell used on a ward behind them is not a gap closer. Also gives enemy locations.

But in addition to TF's ult being in no way accurately described as a gap closer, even if his ult was a gap closer, he still wouldn't fit your accusation because a gap closer on the ult with a several minute cooldown is not in any way remotely related to your accusation that the three abilities that every champion gets are 1, 2, 3, those three things. If someone has an ult that is a gap closer CC, then obviously you cannot talk about how they are the same as jax with his three abilities that are separately a nuke, a gab closer, and CC, because they have two fucking abilities that are completely different things that jax does not have.
You deleted a bunch of heroes that fit my criteria for no reason.
No, I deleted zero champions that fit the spirit of your original accusation, and at least one but probably not a lot of champions that may technically arguably have all three of those abilities, even though they also have other abilities that differentiate them substantially because they have gap closers and CC on the same ability.
Last edited by Kaelik on Sun May 25, 2014 7:01 am, edited 4 times in total.
DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.

That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
Akula
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Post by Akula »

Kaelik wrote:
And then talked about how Dota, not LC, but Dota itself was badly designed. You also have to prove that.
No I fucking didn't. Watch.
Kaelik wrote:So Dota has shitty champ design.
A bold campaign to assert that words do not in fact mean what they say has been started today by Kaelik.

Also I was talking with someone earlier and they somehow psychically predicted that you would seize on two people being the only part of a duel that matters. So two people talking is also a duel because, you see, there are two of them. The ability that forces two people to fight each other is not a duel because reasons, the ability that allows 4 people that are not one of the dueling parties target one of the parties while the other party assaults a bystander is a duel because sometimes it can approximate one.
Last edited by Akula on Sun May 25, 2014 7:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

I am glad you concede that you were completely wrong with your list of champions all having the same three abilities.
Me wrote:RMSTHTBNAFRTUTTFTITYAS: Well it has this one class, called the Monk, and this class has a whole bunch of eclectic abilities that are all mostly useless and don't synergize well and it has defensive abilities that help it watch the rest of the party die but no offensive abilities to contribute.

PFM: Hmmm. That actually sounds like D&D 3.5 has terrible class design. One might even call it shitty.

...

PWIPFYTRAANTONFARUTYI: But when I take your response to their arguments completely out of context and refuse to understand the obvious flow of the conversation I can make it sound like you tried to make a definitive statement about the entire game. Doesn't that mean you actually did say the thing I want to argue against and that you are wrong?
Pretty clearly I am the Psychic here, because I predicted you declaring that the actual conversation doesn't matter and that when I responded to someone's arguments I was secretly talking about something on one else had ever said.
Akula wrote:Also I was talking with someone earlier and they somehow psychically predicted that you would seize on two people being the only part of a duel that matters. So two people talking is also a duel because, you see, there are two of them.
Really? They psychically predicted that I would seize on one of the essential elements of a duel being an essential element of a duel? Did they perchance read my previous posts where I made that clear? Or maybe they just understand how definitions work.

Do they often psychically predict that a glass of water will be wet and that 2+2=4?

But good job being a complete idiot and whining that because something is an essential element that I am claiming it is the only element. Just like when I said you have the emphasis on the wrong word what I clearly meant was that that no other words exist in the universe except one.
Last edited by Kaelik on Sun May 25, 2014 5:24 pm, edited 4 times in total.
DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.

That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
MGuy
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Post by MGuy »

Akula wrote:
Kaelik wrote:
And then talked about how Dota, not LC, but Dota itself was badly designed. You also have to prove that.
No I fucking didn't. Watch.
Kaelik wrote:So Dota has shitty champ design.
A bold campaign to assert that words do not in fact mean what they say has been started today by Kaelik.

Also I was talking with someone earlier and they somehow psychically predicted that you would seize on two people being the only part of a duel that matters. So two people talking is also a duel because, you see, there are two of them. The ability that forces two people to fight each other is not a duel because reasons, the ability that allows 4 people that are not one of the dueling parties target one of the parties while the other party assaults a bystander is a duel because sometimes it can approximate one.
Akula. Are you saying that you needed someone else to tell you that a duel was between two people? If so, why would you mention that out loud, if not, why bring this up at all?
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Post by AndreiChekov »

It is still a duel even if other people cheat.
Peace favour your sword.

I only play 3.x
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