The Paladin Re-Done

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Brobdingnagian
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Posts: 493
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The Paladin Re-Done

Post by Brobdingnagian »

Hey, this is my first post here. I heard Frank Trollman was really hard on people making or changing classes, so I decided this would be a good place to get some things whittled down to useful. I tend to make classes overpowered, and then I mess it up again by over-compensating and making them underpowered. That being said, let's get to the point.

We all know the core Paladin, for lack of a better term, sucks. I've decided, being the arrogant ass I am, to take it upon myself to redesign the class. I was going to playtest this version before posting it, but I wanted some paper approval from someone other than myself before expending an ungodly amount of time throwing it in roleplaying situations against Team NPC and combat situations against Team Monster. So here's my Paladin re-done.

The Paladin
"Yes, I realise that you're evil. No, I'm not going to kill you. Yes, I am a Paladin. Get it yet?"

- Invictus, Paladin of Mersurea

People believe Paladins to be stupid, arrogant, and prejudiced towards all things they decide are evil. This is greatly resultant of misunderstanding that destroying evil does not necessarily mean killing evil creatures. In fact, a true Paladin would not kill even the most terrible and horrific demon if he could find another way.

Paladins are agents of good, and that means giving evil a chance, quite possibly more than one, to redeem itself. Among Paladins, even drawing a blade is considered a last resort. Thus, a Paladin is often much more in favour of subduing and imprisoning an evil creature than killing it.

Game Statistics:

Hit Die: d10
Class Skills: Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Jump (Str), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (-), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str).
Skills/Level: 4 + Intelligence Bonus
BAB: Good
Saves: Fort: Good; Ref: Poor; Will: Good

Alignment: Lawful Good. A Paladin is an upholder of good in all its forms, and though he does not necessarily have a strict preference to Law and Chaos as ideals, he must follow a strict code of conduct, and therefore be lawful. This is alterable at the DM's option based on the Law-Chaos rules for their own universe.

Race: Obviously, races that are generally evil boast far less Paladins than races that are generally good or even neutral. Paladins also occur more often in the more orderly races, but all-in-all, a Paladin could be of any race, even a demon.

Level/Abilities

1. Adaptive Armour Training*, Aura of Good, Code of Conduct, Divine Insight, Non-Lethal Strike, Turn Undead
2. Divine Grace, Healing Touch, Stamina
3. Aura of Courage
4. Puretorch Blade (+1)
5. Honour Shield, Prayer
6. Puretorch Blade (Flaming), Healing Touch
7. Commanding Presence, Divine Health, Peace
8. Puretorch Blade (+2)
9. Purification
10. Puretorch Blade (Merciful), Healing Touch
11. Holy Strength
12. Puretorch Blade (+3)
13. Righteous Resilience
14. Puretorch Blade (Flaming Burst), Healing Touch
15. Holy Fire
16. Puretorch Blade (+4)
17. Awe
18. Puretorch Blade (Holy), Healing Touch
19. Miracle
20. Puretorch Blade (+5)

Weapon and Armour Proficiency: Paladins are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, all armour, shields, and great shields.

Code of Conduct: Paladins have a certain code of conduct that they must follow. This code is as follows.
• A Paladin must not lie.
• A Paladin must not steal.
• A Paladin must never use poisons.
• A Paladin must not willingly commit an evil act.
• A Paladin must not willingly associate with evil creatures.
• A Paladin must offer aid to any in need except evil creatures.
• A Paladin may only fight if absolutely necessary.
• A Paladin may use lethal force only as a last resort.
• A Paladin must offer surrender whenever possible.
Failure to follow this code will cause a Paladin to lose their social status, as well as all Paladin spells, and all Supernatural, Spell-Like, and Extraordinary Abilities gained from Paladin levels, until the Paladin atones. For any purposes regarding evil creatures, evil refers only to alignment, not subtypes.
The Code of Conduct is open to interpretation. It is highly suggested that the DM and anyone planning to play a Paladin discuss this in depth before the game starts.

Adaptive Armour Training* (Ex): For the purposes of gaining the special abilities granted by armour or shields, a Paladin is considered to always have full BAB or maximum ranks in the required skill to gain special abilities in that armour, whichever is necessary, after a day of wearing it. The Paladin gains no actual skill ranks or BAB.

*This ability is only usable in campaigns that use the rules from Races of War.

Aura of Good (Ex): Equal to that of a Cleric of a good deity.

Divine Insight (Su): A Paladin is gifted with the ability to see through enemy ruses. A Paladin has an insight bonus equal to 10 + Paladin’s level on Sense Motive checks to oppose Bluff checks and Spot checks to oppose Disguise checks.

Non-Lethal Strike: Paladins are trained to fight without killing, and therefore do not suffer any penalty when attempting to deal non-lethal damage with melee attacks.

Turn Undead (Su): A Paladin can Turn Undead as a Cleric of his level.

Spellcasting: Beginning at 2nd level, a Paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the Paladin spell-list (see below). A Paladin must choose and prepare her spells in advance.
To prepare or cast a spell, a Paladin must have a Charisma score of 10 + the spell level. The DC for a saving throw against a Paladin's spell is 10 + the spell level + the Paladin's Charisma modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a Paladin can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. The Paladin's base daily spell allotment is given below. In addition, a Paladin receives bonus spells for a high Charisma score (pg. 8 of the PHB, Table 1-1: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells). When the table below indicates that a Paladin receives 0 spells of a given level, the Paladin may only cast spells of that level if he has a sufficiently high Charisma score to gain bonus spells.
A Paladin's caster level is equal to his Paladin level.

Code: Select all

[br]Spells Per Day[br]    1st 2nd   3rd    4th     5th    6th[br]2.  0	-	-	-	-	-[br]3.  1	-	-	-	-	-[br]4.  2	0	-	-	-	-[br]5.  3	1	-	-	-	-[br]6.  3	2	-	-	-	-[br]7.  3	3	0	-	-	-[br]8.  3	3	1	-	-	-[br]9.  3	3	2	-	-	-[br]10. 3	3	2	0	-	-[br]11. 3	3	3	1	-	-[br]12. 3	3	3	2	-	-[br]13. 3	3	3	2	0	-[br]14. 3	3	3	3	1	-[br]15. 4	3	3	3	2	-[br]16. 4	4	3	3	2	0[br]17. 4	4	4	3	3	1[br]18. 4	4	4	4	3	2[br]19. 4	4	4	4	4	3[br]20. 4	4	4	4	4	4[br]


Code: Select all

[br]Paladin Spell List[br]1st Level Paladin Spells:[br]Bless[br]Bless Water[br]Bless Weapon[br]Create Water[br]Cure Light Wounds[br]Detect Poison[br]Detect Undead[br]Divine Favour[br]Endure Elements[br]Magic Weapon[br]Protection from Evil[br]Resistance[br]Restoration, Lesser[br]Virtue[br][br]2nd Level Paladin Spells:[br]Bull's Strength[br]Bear's Endurance[br]Cure Moderate Wounds[br]Delay Poison[br]Eagle's Splendor[br]Owl's Wisdom[br]Remove Paralysis[br]Resist Energy[br]Shield Oter[br]Zone of Truth[br][br]3rd Level Paladin Spells:[br]Cure Serious Wounds[br]Daylight[br]Discern Lies[br]Dispel Magic[br]Magic Circle against Evil[br]Magic Weapon, Greater[br]Prayer[br]Protect Weapon*[br]Remove Blindness/Deafness[br]Remove Curse[br][br]4th Level Paladin Spells:[br]Break Enchantment[br]Cure Critical Wounds[br]Death Ward[br]Dispel Evil[br]Mark of Justice[br]Neutralise Poison[br]Restoration[br]Toungues[br][br]5th Level Paladin Spells:[br]Atonement[br]Cure Light Wounds, Mass[br]Geas, Lesser[br]Hallow[br]Holy Smite[br]Holy Sword[br]Righteous Might[br]Stoneskin[br]True Seeing[br][br]6th Level Paladin Spells:[br]Banishment[br]Bear's Endurance, Mass[br]Bull's Strength, Mass[br]Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass[br]Eagle's Splendor, Mass[br]Heroes' Feast[br]Owl's Wisdom, Mass[br][br]*New spell[br][br]*Protect Weapon[br]Abjuration[br]Level: Pal 3[br]Components: V[br]Casting Time: 1 standard action[br]Range: Touch[br]Target: Weapon touched[br]Duration: 1 round/level[br][br]Casting this spell upon a weapon makes it indestructable for the duration of the spell. For the purposes of this spell, the term 'weapon' only applies to manufactured weapons.[br]


Stamina: Starting at 2nd level, a Paladin gains a certain amount of use with special abilities, represented by Stamina points. A Paladin’s total Stamina point pool is equal to their Paladin level plus their Constitution modifier, whether positive or negative. Regardless of their Constitution modifier, however, a Paladin may never have fewer than two Stamina points. These points are refilled completely after eight hours rest. Any special ability requiring the use of Stamina points has a duration in rounds of 3 + the Paladin’s Charisma modifier (never less than one) unless otherwise stated in the ability’s description. Any special ability requiring the use of Stamina points requires a swift action to activate, unless otherwise noted in the ability's description.

Healing Touch (Su): Starting at 2nd level, a Paladin can heal wounds with a touch. The total amount of points healed is equal to 10 + the Paladin’s Charisma modifier. At 6th level, this amount increases by 10 points and the Paladin’s Charisma modifier for this purpose is doubled. This process is repeated every four levels there after (30 + 3x Charisma at 10th, 40 + 4x Charisma at 14th, and 50 + 5x Charisma at 18th). Regardless of the level of the Paladin, this ability always costs 1 Stamina point to use. This ability is activated as a move action and the effect is instantaneous.

Divine Grace (Su): Starting at 2nd level, as long as a Paladin still has points remaining in his Stamina pool, he gains a bonus equal to his Charisma modifier on all saving throws.

Aura of Courage (Su): Starting at 3rd level, a Paladin is immune to fear effects, and all allies within 30 feet gain a +2 morale bonus on saves against fear. The Paladin may spend 1 Stamina point to make all allies within this range immune to fear as well.

Puretorch Blade (Ex): Starting at 4th level, a Paladin gains the ability to undertake a twelve-hour ritual to create a Puretorch Blade. A Puretorch Blade must be a melee weapon, but otherwise can be any weapon the Paladin wishes. When the ritual is finished, the weapon becomes semi-intelligent (INT 2, WIS 12, CHA 6), is named by the Paladin, and is constantly enveloped in a blue, heatless flame. Because of this, it emits light equal to that of a torch. This flame is only emitted when the Puretorch Blade is within thirty feet of the Paladin who created it. Though semi-intelligent, the Puretorch Blade is only aware of itself, the Paladin who created it, and any creature touching it. The Puretorch Blade has an empathic link with the Paladin who created it, and the Paladin can always discern the direction of his Puretorch Blade. A Puretorch Blade has no ego score.

A Puretorch Blade has a +1 enhancement bonus for every four levels of the Paladin who created it and is considered a good-aligned weapon. At 6th level, the Puretorch Blade gains the Flaming ability. At 10th level, the Puretorch Blade gains the Merciful ability. At 14th level, the Puretorch Blade loses the Flaming ability and gains the Flaming Burst ability in its place. At 18th level, the Puretorch Blade gains the Holy ability. The enhancement bonuses and special properties are negated within an anti-magic field as normal. The blue flame and semi-intelligence, however, are not.

If the Paladin who created the Puretorch Blade is not wielding it, it loses its enhancement bonus and any special abilities, becoming indistinguishable from a normal Masterwork weapon; however, it still remains semi-intelligent and still emits the blue flame when in range of its Paladin creator.

Any evil creature making contact with a Puretorch Blade at any time, even when it is away from its Paladin creator, immediately takes 1d4 points of damage per 4 levels of the Paladin. If the Paladin is wielding it at the time, the damage may be lethal or non-lethal, at the Paladin’s option. If the Paladin is not wielding it, the damage is always lethal. The evil creature touching the Puretorch Blade takes this damage each round it maintains contact. If the evil creature is attempting to wield or otherwise hold the Puretorch Blade, it must make a Reflex save (DC = 10 + damage dealt that round) or immediately drop the weapon. Anyone wielding the Puretorch Blade may choose to make a melee touch attack against an evil creature and deal only this damage.

A Paladin may have only one Puretorch Blade at a time. A Puretorch Blade can not be dismissed. If a Puretorch Blade is destroyed, the Paladin who created it must wait a week until they can make another.

Prayer (Sp): Starting at 5th level, a Paladin may use 1 Stamina points to cast Prayer as a spell-like ability, with the normal duration of a Stamina ability. This ability requires a move action to activate.

Honour Shield (Su): Starting at 5th level, a Paladin may spend 4 Stamina points to gain a deflection modifier equal to his Charisma modifier (minimum 1) as a bonus to his Armour Class. As a move action, a Paladin may touch another character to grant them this bonus.

Commanding Presence (Ex): Starting at 7th level, a Paladin commands respect with his mere presence, taking no penalty for a rushed Diplomacy check. He also gains a competence bonus equal to his Paladin level on Diplomacy checks as long as he still has points remaining in his Stamina pool.

Divine Health (Ex): A Paladin who has reached 7th level gains full immunity to all diseases, including supernatural ones. A Paladin who has a disease upon attaining this level is instantly cured of all effects.

Peace (Su): Starting at 7th level, a Paladin may cause any unfriendly or hostile creature within 50ft to become indifferent. The creature must make a Will saving throw (DC = 10 + ½ Paladin’s level + Paladin’s Charisma modifier) or forget all reason for hostility or unfriendliness toward the Paladin. Any attack made on a creature by anyone immediately ends the effect for that creature; otherwise, it lasts as long as is normal. This ability costs 5 Stamina points to use.

Purification (Su): Starting at 9th level, a Paladin may touch someone and use 3 Stamina points to cure that person of all poisons, natural and supernatural diseases, and curses. This ability requires a move action to activate and the effect is instantaneous.

Holy Strength (Su): Starting at 11th level, a Paladin may use 8 Stamina points to gain a bonus to his Strength score equal to four times his Charisma modifier (minimum 4). Multiple uses of this ability do not stack. As a move action, a Paladin may touch another character to grant them this bonus.

Righteous Resilience (Su): Starting at 13th level, a Paladin may use 6 Stamina points to gain Damage Reduction X/-, where X is equal to the Paladin’s base attack bonus. Multiple uses of this ability do not stack. As a move action, a Paladin may touch another character to grant them this bonus.

Holy Fire (Su): At 15th level, a Paladin can cause an enemy struck by his Puretorch Blade to become enveloped in holy flames. The flames result directly from divine power, and so are not subject to any kind of energy resistance or immunity. The flames only damage evil creatures, and deal either lethal or non-lethal damage, at the Paladin’s option at the time of striking. The flames deal 1d6 damage per Paladin level each round until the effect wears off. A Paladin can activate this ability either with a normal successful melee attack or the melee touch attack of his Puretorch Blade. This ability costs 5 Stamina points to activate. Multiple Holy Fire effects do not stack.

Awe (Su): Starting at 17th level, a Paladin can invoke awe and fear simply by being seen. Any creature within view of the Paladin must make a Will saving throw (DC = 10 + ½ Paladin’s level + Charisma modifier) or flee in terror. This effect is permanent. Any creature who fails this saving throw must attempt another one whenever in view of the Paladin to avoid running again, even if the Paladin does not activate the ability again. Any creature who succeeds their saving throw the first time is still shaken for the normal duration of a Stamina ability, and does not need to make a saving throw if it encounters the Paladin again. Any creature who succeeds on a later saving throw against the after-effects of this ability is shaken for the duration of the encounter, and afterward is no longer affected. This is a fear effect, but not a mind-affecting effect (in other words, even mindless creatures not specifically immune to fear effects can still be affected). This ability costs 15 Stamina points to activate. The Paladin may choose to exclude any creature from the effects of this ability when activated.

Miracle (Sp): Starting at 19th level, a Paladin may use Miracle as a spell-like ability, with the following changes. The Paladin must spend 24-hours in meditation beforehand, and then may use the ability anytime thereafter. A Paladin may have only one Miracle stored this way. After using his Miracle, the Paladin must wait another twenty-four hours on that Plane before beginning his meditation again.

--------------------------------------------------------------

So, there's my Paladin redo. You'll notice I pretty much sacked or heavily modded everything the PHB had for it in favour for what I find to be a more balanced and useful class in general. I'll even go through the specifics for you.

The Code of Conduct has suddenly become more specific and believable. Lay on Hands I replaced with Healing Touch. Smite Evil I removed entirely, because the Puretorch Blade alone makes up for its usefulness, which was questionable anyway. Remove Disease I ditched in favour of Purification. I was originally going to include a modification for the mount, or even just keep it there, but I got so worked up building the class from the ground up I forgot about it entirely, and when I had finished and remembered it, I realised the mount really didn't have a place left.

You'll also notice the Stamina point system I'm using. I got the idea from the Ninja (Complete Adventurer), who uses a ki point system. I had originally tried limiting his abilities in other ways (ie: uses per day, per week, spell slots, etc.), but nothing seemed to work right. Either it was too powerful or not powerful enough. I think this Stamina thing works, but I'm still not sure about how many points each ability should cost.

Finally, I was informed by one of my less-reasonable fellow players that the Puretorch Blade, by the end-game, is not a fully-optimised +10 weapon. Before anyone else informs me of this, allow me to explain something.

It's not supposed to be.

The idea is that it's the Paladin's general weapon-of-choice for fighting evil, not necessarily his best weapon. It really doesn't cost him anything except a little bit of time, and so he's free to buy and magically optimise other weapons as he normally would. It's not like the Puretorch Blade is going to be the only weapon you ever use. You don't even have to use it at all.

I've also been informed that my Paladin appears to be a pyro-maniac. I'd like to clarify why he has an appearance of a fire concept.

I needed an energy type. It seemed rather abstract and really, rather prejudiced of me to use positive energy or light. After all, one of the things I was trying to do with this class is throw-off the prejudism involved in the typical Paladin. I also decided, at some point in the future, I needed to make an evil equivalent of this class, because the anti-Paladin should not be a Prestige Class if the regular Paladin isn't. If I gave my Paladin a weapon made of light, my anti-Paladin would have a weapon made of... dark? That didn't seem right.

So instead, I chose fire. Both good and evil in a fair deal of mythologies use fire. It's often respected as a power that is neither good nor evil, and usable equally by both. Therefore, the fire is a representation that a Paladin has power, and his use of that fire shows that his power is used for good. Clear on that? Cool.

Anyway, I think that's it. Feel free to slag on me or otherwise insult me, just make sure you're telling me what I'm doing wrong when you do. I look forward to making this class worth-while.

EDIT!
I realised I didn't specify a few other changes. Detect Evil is gone. Divine Insight should mostly make up for that, and the Puretorch Blade seals it.

Also, for spellcasting. Paladin spellcasting was nice, but I noticed that, with the same spell levels, not wasting points on Charisma, and more skill points, the Ranger totally wastes his ass. So, it needed to be better. Still, it couldn't be good enough that he could be considered a primary spellcaster. And who do we know who has good spellcasting and is still not a primary spellcaster? That's right. The Bard.

So I decided to just give him Bard spell progression, minus the cantrips. To do that I also needed to give him a couple more spell levels, meaning I had to pick some more spells from the Cleric list. While doing so I noticed that some of his spells just didn't fit, and I also thought "Hey, it would make sense if the Paladin had Holy Smite", so I mixed and matched a couple, even outright removed one or two, and threw him a spell from the Druid list (Stoneskin), because it made sense for him to have it. I also added a new spell of my own making because I figured no Paladin wants his Puretorch Blade being smushed by a random Nightwalker.

Finally, to make him much less MAD (that's Multiple Attribute Dependant for those who don't know), I made his casting based off of Charisma. Maybe now he can keep up with his nature counterpart.

Yeah, I think that's everything this time.

EDIT!
Moved Holy Sword to fifth level spells. That's a little more balanced, I think.

EDIT!
Under good advice, I finally got past my initial reservations and moved Turn Undead to 1st level.

EDIT!
Added Adaptive Armour Training. Still working on the new version that doesn't use Stamina points. Don't bug me about it.

EDIT!
Touched up some stacking issues. Yes, I'm still working on the new version. Leave me alone.

EDIT!
Remembered to add the ability to use Honour Shield, Holy Strength, and Righteous Resilience on allies. Now he can actually contribute a little bit to a party.
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Judging__Eagle
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Re: The Paladin Re-Done

Post by Judging__Eagle »

Space out the description for the Puretouch blade Brobdingagian, it's hard to read dense text blocks.

I should scrap my knight character for the WLD game (as a sub for my Barb) and make a Pal 5/Aq Ch. 5/Aq. Kn 5.

Then beat peoples up with my magic adamantine knuckles.

Unless one can own an Intelligent hand.
The Gaming Den; where Mathematics are rigorously applied to Mythology.

While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board.
Brobdingnagian
Knight
Posts: 493
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: The Paladin Re-Done

Post by Brobdingnagian »

Right. I always forget a bit of organisation. Thanks.

Honestly, if you want to make the Puretorch Blade from a natural slam attack or whatever, be my guest. Just keep in mind that your hand will always be covered in a blue flame. Pretty, yes?
Catharz
Knight-Baron
Posts: 893
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: The Paladin Re-Done

Post by Catharz »

At first level your paladin has, as far as I can tell, no combat abilities:
1. Aura of Good, Code of Conduct, Divine Insight, Non-Lethal Strike

If you want to keep paladins as undead-turners, you could move the ability up a level.

I don't like having a class with both 'stamina points' and spells. That's more mechanics than I'd care to keep track of with a single class, plus they're way to similar: Stamina points is Power Points by any other name. You could accomplish the same thing by giving the paladin more spell slots and writing up a few swift action paladin spells.

Here you go:
Healing Touch
Level: Paladin 1
Components: S
Casting time: 1 move action
Range: touch
Duration: instantanious
Saving throw: Fortitude negates (harmless)
Spell resistance: No

The paladin heals (10+Charisma mod)*(1+ (level-2/4)) damage.


Divine Grace
Level: paladin 1
Components: V, S
Casting time: Full round
Range: personal
Duration: 24 hours

The paladin can add his charisma modifier to all saves. Multiple castings of this spell do not stack.

Courageous Stand
Level: paladin 1
Components: Verbal
Casting time: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Area: All allies within 30'
Duration: 3+charisma mod rounds
Save: Will negates (harmless)
SR: No

All allies within the area of effect are immune to fear.


Paladin's Prayer
Level: paladin 1 or 2
Components: V
Casting time: 1 move action
Duration: 3+charisma mod rounds
All else as Prayer.

Honour Shield
Level: paladin 4 or 2
Components: None
Casting time: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Duration: 3+charisma mod rounds

The paladin adds a deflection bonus to AC equal to his charisma modifier or 1, whichever is greater.

And so forth...

Alternatively, you could give the paladin a set of abilities like a Warblade and dispense with spells entirely.

Brobdingnagian
Knight
Posts: 493
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: The Paladin Re-Done

Post by Brobdingnagian »

True, at first level, he has no real special combat abilities, but c'mon, it's first level. With 10 + CON hit points, +1 BAB, and Martial Weapon Proficiency, he'll be playing the same role as the Fighter for that level. Hit the kobold, make it go down. Only in this case, don't kill it. I left Undead Turning to second level because in all honesty, it didn't seem fair to the Clerics if he could do it not only as soon as them but better because he didn't waste time with points in Wisdom. I don't see it really matters that much, but it is some peace-of-mind.

As for the Stamina abilities as spells and extra spell-slots, that honestly didn't occur to me. It'd be easy enough to change the abilities into spells at appropriate levels, but then I'm suddenly faced with the problem of them getting too many spells-per-day, not to mention the Archivists bumming the spells off of them at much lower levels. Seriously, have you read the description for Holy Sword? There's a reason the core Paladin doesn't get access to it until 14th level, and the Archivist in my Eberron party was casting it at 7th.

Actually, I just realised how early my Paladin is getting that spell. I'll fix that after this post.

I do agree that it's a lot to keep track of, though. Personally, I don't mind keeping track of that many mechanics. Hell, I actually enjoy it. I'm also aware, though, that many players don't share this feeling. So...

Here's an idea. I'll keep the original here, and tomorrow I'll get started on fixing a second one where the abilities are just more spells and he has more spell-slots, so people can pick which one they like better.

I've got to be honest here. I kind of expected the feedback to be more negative. By the sounds of it I did a good job and just need to touch up some details.

I'm still open to more suggestions, of course.
Catharz
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Posts: 893
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: The Paladin Re-Done

Post by Catharz »

Brobdingnagian at [unixtime wrote:1172638279[/unixtime]]True, at first level, he has no real special combat abilities, but c'mon, it's first level. With 10 + CON hit points, +1 BAB, and Martial Weapon Proficiency, he'll be playing the same role as the Fighter for that level. Hit the kobold, make it go down. Only in this case, don't kill it.

Are you trying to balance it against the PHB fighter or the RoW fighter/PHB cleric?

Brobdingnagian at [unixtime wrote:1172638279[/unixtime]] I left Undead Turning to second level because in all honesty, it didn't seem fair to the Clerics if he could do it not only as soon as them but better because he didn't waste time with points in Wisdom. I don't see it really matters that much, but it is some peace-of-mind.

Well, if undead turning is supposed to be part of the paladin niche, they should get it at first level. Clerics get spellcasting at first level, 'cause that's their thing. They get undead turning at first level just because.

Brobdingnagian at [unixtime wrote:1172638279[/unixtime]]As for the Stamina abilities as spells and extra spell-slots, that honestly didn't occur to me. It'd be easy enough to change the abilities into spells at appropriate levels, but then I'm suddenly faced with the problem of them getting too many spells-per-day, not to mention the Archivists bumming the spells off of them at much lower levels. Seriously, have you read the description for Holy Sword? There's a reason the core Paladin doesn't get access to it until 14th level, and the Archivist in my Eberron party was casting it at 7th.

Actually, I just realised how early my Paladin is getting that spell. I'll fix that after this post.


Well, archivists can't cast Infusions. Give paladins spells which are called "prayers" and say that they're divine and exactly like spells, except they aren't spells. Problem solved.

Brobdingnagian at [unixtime wrote:1172638279[/unixtime]]I do agree that it's a lot to keep track of, though. Personally, I don't mind keeping track of that many mechanics. Hell, I actually enjoy it. I'm also aware, though, that many players don't share this feeling. So...

Oh, I totally understand. I just think that that level of complexity should be reserved for multiclass characters.

Brobdingnagian at [unixtime wrote:1172638279[/unixtime]]Here's an idea. I'll keep the original here, and tomorrow I'll get started on fixing a second one where the abilities are just more spells and he has more spell-slots, so people can pick which one they like better.

I'm looking forward to it :)

Brobdingnagian at [unixtime wrote:1172638279[/unixtime]]I've got to be honest here. I kind of expected the feedback to be more negative. By the sounds of it I did a good job and just need to touch up some details.
Your posting style is lackluster, your grasp of game balance is tenuous at best! The flavor of this class is formaggio marcio! May the fleas of a thousand camels find their home in your pubes and the pubes of your children and your children's children unto the ninth generation!

Happy? :P
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Re: The Paladin Re-Done

Post by Brobdingnagian »

Catharz wrote:Are you trying to balance it against the PHB fighter or the RoW fighter/PHB cleric?


I suppose both for the sake of first level. I know the RoW Fighter well, and at first level, it's still the meatshield for all intents and purposes. That changes pretty much as soon as second level comes along, but then, so does my Paladin.


Catharz wrote:Well, if undead turning is supposed to be part of the paladin niche, they should get it at first level. Clerics get spellcasting at first level, 'cause that's their thing. They get undead turning at first level just because.


I must concede this point to you. I was really just being stubborn about it. I'm like that. It's fixed now. Thank you for the advice.

Catharz wrote:Well, archivists can't cast Infusions. Give paladins spells which are called "prayers" and say that they're divine and exactly like spells, except they aren't spells. Problem solved.


Noted. Just to give myself more to do, maybe I should make a third version... no, I'll just use this idea for the second version, and see which one comes out better in playtesting.

Catharz wrote:Your posting style is lackluster, your grasp of game balance is tenuous at best! The flavor of this class is formaggio marcio! May the fleas of a thousand camels find their home in your pubes and the pubes of your children and your children's children unto the ninth generation!

Happy? :P


Quite. :)
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Re: The Paladin Re-Done

Post by Judging__Eagle »

Brobdingnagian at [unixtime wrote:1172642010[/unixtime]]
Catharz wrote:Are you trying to balance it against the PHB fighter or the RoW fighter/PHB cleric?


I suppose both for the sake of first level. I know the RoW Fighter well, and at first level, it's still the meatshield for all intents and purposes. That changes pretty much as soon as second level comes along, but then, so does my Paladin.


No, the Fighter gets prof's with any weapon given a day's use.

Give the paladin something similar.

But for armours and shields.

Either; they can use any armour and can trade out any level-scaling approprtiate value on their character sheet to activate a power on their armour or sheild.

So; a Paladin with say.... 19 ranks in Knowledge (Religion) is a bit boned if he picks up a Mechanus Plate; since that uses Know (Engineering).

But with his... uhm Adaptive Armour Training he can pick one skill that the DM thinks would fit (say Know the planes) and he can use the Mech. Plate as if he had ranks in Know (Eng.) instead of Know (Religion).

Stuff tied to BaB and or Caster level can be made equal to each other; so a Paladin 5/All-Priest 10/Heirophant 5
could have an pretty high CL (like; 24 with Practised caster; more if you add in gear) but a low BaB; so they can use their CL to use their Adamantine Fullplate's higher level abilities.

(All-Priest = the good version of the Ur-Priest; you're stuck being either all neutral or if you have an alignment casting spells that don't interfere with your alignment).

That, or just make their level = the highest level of powers they could unlock from any armour or sheild; regardless if they have the skill or Caster level; they have a paladin level that equals the level that a character geared to using that item would have.

Only it's all badly worded there.
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Re: The Paladin Re-Done

Post by Brobdingnagian »

Now there's something I hadn't thought of, probably due to a lack of familiarity with the majority of armour abilities from RoW. I'll look up the various armours and come up with something.
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Re: The Paladin Re-Done

Post by Judging__Eagle »

If you don't go that route, giving them a flat out bonus that increases their armour bonus (capped by either their own level and/or the armour's maximum base AC).

So, the 8th lvl fighter will run around in Adamantine Full Plate and an Adamantine Sheild since it's giving him both it's base AC, +8 AC from pally levels and a further +5 fromt the sheild.

Really, being all tanked out doesn't really matter for a non-caster; since only a caster can really approach unhittability. Plus, being unhittable means little if people don't want to hit you in the first place.

It's actually a a bit of a limitation though. If you can't do mad damage, no one cares if they can't hit you most of the time; they could just kill your party and withdraw to find a better way to deal with you.
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Re: The Paladin Re-Done

Post by josephbt »

Holy Strength and Righteous Resilience give untyped bonuses. Is this intended or an oversight? Can I activate any of those abilities multiple times to gain multiple bonuses?
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Re: The Paladin Re-Done

Post by Brobdingnagian »

The bonuses are intended to be untyped so that they stack with any other sources, but I did neglect to mention in their description that multiple uses of the ability do not stack with themselves. I'll fix that. Thanks.
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Re: The Paladin Re-Done

Post by Iaimeki »

This is going to be a quick and dirty review of the class. I apologize in advance if I lack tact; I'm not feeling well today, so I'm trying to take my mind off things by futzing with roleplaying stuff.

I have two questions that I try to answer for every class. The first question is: how does this class deal with level-appropriate challenges? (If it can't, it's time to go back to the drawing board.) The second question is: what does this class bring to the party? This is a little more ambiguous, but the idea is that each class should offer some good reason to play it.

To start with the first question, let's apply Frank and K's Same Game test. Which of these challenges can this paladin deal with, and which challenges should a paladin be able to deal with?

A hallway filled with magical runes.: This paladin is screwed: you don't have trapfinding/Search/Disable Device, and your spells won't let your work around traps like the cleric's or wizard's. I'd argue that this is not a challenge paladins should expect to survive.

A Fire Giant: At 10th level, your net offensive abilities useful against a fire giant are . . . one slightly-improved magic weapon (you get Flaming for free and don't have to spend money/spell slots on enhancement bonuses). None of the spells on this paladin's list help against a fire giant. So, you're basically a vanilla (not RoW) fighter, which means you die. A lot.

A Young Blue Dragon: You have few to no offenses useful at range, not much extra melee damage, and no defenses capable of standing up to a dragon's attacks, which means the blue dragon can probably strafe you to death or pound you to death in melee. This is a sure loss.

A Bebilith: You have Spot and Listen in-class, so you have at least a fighting chance to spot the bebilith before it grabs you and lunches on you. Your spells can probably keep you alive against the poison. You have no way to stop yourself from getting webbed, so you need a reach weapon to prevent the bebilith from owning you by holding you in place and whacking you from outside your reach. If you have a magic item, reach weapon, or some other way to escape that fate, it becomes a damage contest between you and the bebilith. The bebilith has more hp and will sooner or later rip through your armor, while you negate the bebilith's DR. I haven't run the numbers, but I don't like your chances, so I think this is a likely loss. I definitely think paladins ought to be decent at slaying demons.

A Vrock: You have saves good enough so that the vrock can't own you with stunning screech, delay poison counters the spores, and hopefully you took a feat to deal with mirror image, so this is a damage off. Vrocks get more attacks, but their attacks aren't especially damaging, so as long as the vrock's summon fails, I'll be generous and say you win. That makes this a likely win.

A tag team of Mind Flayers: With Will favored and divine grace, there's a decent chance you'll survive the mind blasts and plane shifts long enough to own the mind flayers, especially since their other spell-likes probably won't work on you. Likely win.

An Evil Necromancer: You have no way to counter the myriad ways wizards have of owning meleers. With heavy armor, so low Dex, and poor Ref, even with divine grace you likely have a Ref save bad enough they can just grease you without even needing to tap their higher-level slots. Certain loss. If paladins can't deal with evil wizards, what are they supposed to do?

6 Trolls: You have a flaming weapon, decent AC, and combat healing. Sure win.

A horde of Shadows: You have undead turning, so you can probably just turn/destroy enough of them to make the remainder manageable. There's a small chance you'll get unlucky and they'll overwhelm you, though. Likely win.

In summary, we've racked up one certain win, three likely wins, one likely loss, four certain losses. This is on the weak side: most of the Frank/K classes and the core casters do better. Also, this paladin isn't particularly good at dealing with some of the paladin's "natural enemies," IMO, so I think it needs some buffing.

I'm really not clear on what role this character is supposed to play in a party. The vanilla paladin is theoretically designed as a defensive character: high saves, some immunities, heavy armor. Of course, the problem with defensive characters in D&D is that they're not much use unless they have some way to force enemies to attack them. Frank and K worked around this problem with the knight by giving you an out-of-control offensive ability to use if enemies don't attack you. I'm kind of skeptical there's any other essentially different way to do that in D&D, so this character needs another role.

The paladin's archetype comes out of Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions, though it's undergone evolution since then. The paladin, is among other things, an idealized medieval knight with miraculous powers granted by the Christian god; a paragon of D&D "good;" and a hybrid meleer/cleric. You really need to pick an archetype, then design around that.

Now, I'll make some more specific criticisms of the class's structure.

First, about lawfulness and goodness. I'm sure you've read Frank's rants about law and chaos in D&D, so I'll spare repeating them here. However, compare this paladin to the knight. I quote: "Many Knights are Lawful. But not all of them. You have to maintain your code of conduct, but plenty of Chaotic creatures can do that too." In other words, there's no reason for paladins to be lawful except tradition. If you really want to enforce that, that's one thing; but at least say so, rather than giving the same silly and wrong justification for lawfulness used in the PHB.

My second comments are about the code of conduct. First, what's the justification for the inclusion of some of these items? Frank and K discuss the reasons why things are considered honorable in a D&D world, and the knight's code of conduct is an extension of these things. The paladin shares one restriction (on poisons), but not the others. What's the motivating logic behind the paladin's code of conduct? Second, some of these items are carry-overs from the PHB paladin's code, and have the same problems. A general game-design principle is that one character's restrictions should not cripple the others' choices; another is that restrictions should be specific enough to be clear in most situations, and not make DMs or players think that they "ought" to be crippling. In light of these, several code restrictions are problematic. D&D is, at its core, a game about breaking into people's homes and taking their stuff. Does anyone take the paladin's theft restriction seriously? I mean, shouldn't the paladin, after knocking over the local beholder nest, contact the beholders' next of kin to return their property? Or should the paladin be tracking down the heirs of the people the beholders stole their items from? Honestly, the concept of "theft" in D&D is just not particularly workable: monsters kill people and take their stuff, then adventurers kill monsters and take it back, only sometimes, it's just people and people. Another example is the restriction on associating with evil creatures. One example, possibly apocryphal, I've heard mentioned was that in a prime bit of Gygaxness, the Temple of Elemental Evil had a section where you needed to get assistance from an evil character, but because the character temporarily joined your party, any paladins in the party lost their abilities. That's bullshit, and this kind of restriction is bullshit too: not only does it restrict the other players' choices, it's vague and overbroad. What does "willingly associate" mean? It's not even unreasonable to argue that a paladin who's merely standing in the same room with an evil creature and not actively attempting to kill it is "willingly associating," based on the meaning of the words. How far does "offering aid to any in need" go? When is fighting "necessary," and how does this reconcile with adventurers going into the homes of monsters, killing them, and taking their stuff? Etc. You want a code of conduct to provide good guidelines for the DM and players, and not to interfere with the game.

Third, I think that a lot of the class abilities are overcomplex for what they accomplish. The puretorch blade has this problem in spades. For starters, you devote an entire paragraph to detailing what happens if an evil creature picks it up, a situation that won't happen often in the game. If you feel the need to punish evil creatures for trying to snag the paladin's weapon, why not just borrow the simpler negative level mechanic from opposed-alignment artifacts? This brings up another general game design principle: it's much better to borrow existing mechanics than to create new ones. It's much easier on the players and DM if similar concepts use the same mechanics, especially if those mechanics are ones they're familiar with. Another problem with the puretorch blade is that you've already given one of its primary abilities to the class in its spell list: by the time a paladin has a +2 puretorch blade, they can cast an eight-hour greater magic weapon that gives any weapon they want a +2 enhancement bonus. Getting a magic weapon is only special if you can't cast that spell. Meanwhile, the puretorch blade is intelligent, but it doesn't have an ego score or any special abilities; why bother making it intelligent in the first place, then?

There's already been discussion of the problem with stamina points and spellcasting. There's a lot of bookkeeping involved with this class, and generally, you want to cut that down as much as possible. You also have duplication of abilities between the spell list and the class abilities: puretorch blade, GMW, and holy sword; the prayer ability and the spell; and purification and the various healing abilities.

One final nitpick: the turning ability doesn't specify how many uses/day you get. I assume it's 3+Cha mod, but you might want to clarify that.
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Re: The Paladin Re-Done

Post by Brobdingnagian »

Thanks for the monster list. I've been looking for that, but I couldn't remember for the life of me where to find it.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on the fire giant, though. It's not that I don't think my Paladin would win the fight... I agree that combat-wise, he leaves a bit to be desired against that foe at that level, but... give me a second to do the math... 10 from Commanding Presence... 13 from ranks... assume a CHA of 18 at that level so that's another four... his 6-second, +27 Diplomacy check might give the fire giant some pause. Give me a second to refamiliarise my self with Rich Burlew's Diplomacy system.

15 base + 15 HD... +2 Wisdom... So my DC is 32, at the moment. For Relationship and Risk vs. Reward...

+2 for relationship, I've never seen the fire giant before, and to him I'm just another adventurer, but he's a mean guy, and probably wants my stuff, though probably not badly enough to get himself really hurt over it. As for Risk vs. Reward... What, really? It works like that? Oh.

"Hey, big tough giant, me and my buddies were goin' into that hole in the mountain there to get free stuff. There's some guys in there you might not be able to handle on your own, but with us here, it'd be easy." So, That seems like a -5 to my check DC.

But y'know what? Forget that part. Let's assume I'm just convincing him to leave me alone because he's big but I'm strong and holy, and even if he does beat me, he's not getting out of it without a lot of pain. My stuff isn't worth that much.

So, my total check DC right now is 34. On a roll of ten, I get 37. So, I need a 5 or less on the D20 to fail. Seems to me like my Paladin beats that encounter 75% of the time without even drawing his sword.

Of course, this assumes my Paladin encountering the fire giant is an isolated incident, which, for the sake of playtesting, I would assume it is. I'm only testing him against this encounter once. I don't think the fire giant is being sent by his Cleric of Burning Stuff master (who probably wasted a domain on Fire; somebody's got to, and I wouldn't make a PC do it) to kill my Pally.

Evil wizard? His fewer HD and probable WIS of 10 would make it easier, but he wouldn't like me as much...

Let's assume 15th level? I dunno, I can't remember the actual comparison. Give me a different level if you think you need to. Base DC 15... 15 HD... +0 WIS... +5 from Relationship (He knows I'm a Paladin, we're on opposite sides, but nothing really personal or ongoing)... +10 on Risk vs. Reward... ("Your powers could serve much greater if you were to fight for our cause instead of evil, and you can bet no Paladin will ever try to usurp your mantle. We have better dental too.")

So, DC 45. At fifteenth level, we got +15 from Commanding Presence, 18 ranks, Charisma modifier of +5? That's +38 total. I'm working on a rolll of seven or better. That's a 70% chance of beating the encounter, again, without drawing my sword.

Or let's assume this Wizard put a couple more points into Wisdom (12/+1) and, at fifteenth level and Wish economy, got some free +2 Wisdom gear. Now I have to roll a nine or better. There's still a 60% chance of success if this wizard was statted like every wizard should be.

So, I think our proper summary should be one certain win (Trolls), five likely wins (Fire Giant, Vrock, Mind Flayers, Necro, and Shadows), a likely loss (Bebilith), and two certain losses (Dragon, Hallway). I think my class is actually pretty balanced, but now that I have the list, I'm going to make the rolls myself to be sure. Except for the hallway.

Iaimeki wrote:I'm really not clear on what role this character is supposed to play in a party. The vanilla paladin is theoretically designed as a defensive character: high saves, some immunities, heavy armor. Of course, the problem with defensive characters in D&D is that they're not much use unless they have some way to force enemies to attack them. Frank and K worked around this problem with the knight by giving you an out-of-control offensive ability to use if enemies don't attack you. I'm kind of skeptical there's any other essentially different way to do that in D&D, so this character needs another role.

The paladin's archetype comes out of Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions, though it's undergone evolution since then. The paladin, is among other things, an idealized medieval knight with miraculous powers granted by the Christian god; a paragon of D&D "good;" and a hybrid meleer/cleric. You really need to pick an archetype, then design around that.


Actually, the idealised medieval knight with miraculous powers granted by the Christian god kind of is what I was going for on this one. The point being, no matter what group he's in, the Paladin stands seperate. The thing is, I've gone over the core Paladin a hundred times, and it really has nothing the class actually needs or should have. My Paladin here is very loosely based off of the Paladin from the Quest For Glory series of games, and that was a game where you went solo. I agree that really, my Paladin doesn't serve a strong role in any party. He can throw some healing, a little extra turning (which doesn't help past a certain point), and some buffs. He can really only do what the rest of the cleric/fighter/diplomat already does, except at a weaker level due to multitasking. Coincidentally, I just realised that I made all of his buffs personal rather than letting him use them on others. I'll fix that.

Point being, the Paladin in D&D, as you said, is a hybrid Fighter/Cleric. Let's use the RoW Fighter for this example. I can't give him all the tactical ability of the Fighter as well as his cool abilities and spellcasting, because then he's overpowered. I also can't give him the spellcasting of a Cleric in addition to his current abilities, because again, he's overpowered. That leaves me with mediocre tactical/special abilities and mediocre casting. And what does that leave us with? Someone who's not effective at high-level.

The problem with the Paladin, Ranger, Hexblade, and any other fighter/caster class is that you can't give him the best of either class because it would make that class trumped, and you can't give him a middling ability in both because at higher level, it becomes useless. The real problem, though, is that people want these classes, and we can't get rid of them. When unique special abilities that make little sense are your only option for keeping a class balanced, it becomes difficult to make the class worthwhile, as all base warrior/caster classes will prove just by taking levels in them.

But that's not what we're here to discuss. Back on topic with me.

Iaimeki wrote:First, about lawfulness and goodness. I'm sure you've read Frank's rants about law and chaos in D&D, so I'll spare repeating them here. However, compare this paladin to the knight. I quote: "Many Knights are Lawful. But not all of them. You have to maintain your code of conduct, but plenty of Chaotic creatures can do that too." In other words, there's no reason for paladins to be lawful except tradition. If you really want to enforce that, that's one thing; but at least say so, rather than giving the same silly and wrong justification for lawfulness used in the PHB.


My apologies, I should clarify something for that. I am keeping that alignment purely for the sake of tradition; however, as a DM, I have a distinct seperation in any of my campaign worlds between Law and Chaos.

Good and Evil, in the D&D universe, are not abstract concepts. They are set moral parameters that people actively choose to or choose not to adhere to. It's fairly black & white. It makes sense to me, therefore, to also have Law and Chaos as set moral parameters that people actively choose to or choose not to adhere to; thus, animals, vermin, and any other semi-intelligent or mindless creatures must be "Neutral" in alignment because they do not have the intellectual capacity to make that moral choice.

One of my chief arguments with this is Skeletons. Let's assume, from the Tome of Necromancy, the Crawling Darkness option. The Negative Energy Plane is the Plane of Ultimate Evil, moreso than even Hades. Therefore, a Skeleton by its nature is evil. That still does not mean a Skeleton is of evil alignment. Its alignment should still be Neutral. The Skeleton, like the sand in your pants from your beach vacation on Baator, would have the evil subtype, and for all intents and purposes be considered to have an evil alignment, but its actual alignment would still be Neutral. Obviously, this becomes more true using the Playing With Fire option, but that's going off-topic again.

At any rate. The definitions of Law and Chaos are set in my campaign world, just like the definitions of Good and Evil. A Paladin in my campaign world would have to be Lawful because of his code; if you want to change that for your own campaign world, be my guest. On the other hand, if you would like a better definition of how Law and Chaos work in the core D&D world, you'd be much better off checking the Monster Manual, judging the behavoural patterns of certain creatures (mainly, Inevitables; avoid the Slaad and pretty much all other Chaotic creatures, that's too often the definition of "Chaotic Stupid"), and evaluating for yourself what it would mean, in the D&D universe, for someone to be lawful or chaotic. Moving on.

As for the code of conduct, I'm going to be perfectly blunt. I'm lost. I mean, the Paladin has to have something, but really, what? Granted, the "no poisons" thing is only there because Paladins have no fear of poison themselves, so it's a mechanical balance more than anything else. My original one was "no lethal poisons (aka Con poison)", which makes full sense according to the "don't kill people" part, but a friend of mine advised me to make it "no poison, period" in a effort to rebalance my class, but I'm still open to changing it back to the way it was.

And for the rest of of it, if I put in what I interpreted it must be, it'd be too complicated and not mechanical enough to place in a class description. Personally, I'd allow a Paladin to associate with evil creatures and even commit minor evil acts, not necessarily for the greater good, but far more often, for a lesser evil. Sometimes people are put in situations where they have two real options, and neither of them are good. In the Temple of Elemental Evil example, you have to accept assistance from an evil character. Well, it's that, or abandon your mission entirely. Now, I've never been through it, so I don't know, but I figure, if the goal of the temple is good enough that a Paladin would believe he had to go through it, then surely accepting temporary aid from an evil character is excusable. And personally, I do not define willingly associating with evil as "Being in the same room and not hacking their faces off". Just because you're not trying to kill something doesn't mean you're enjoying its company. As for willingly itself, it would probably serve to add "wittingly" beside it, especially because my Paladin does not gain Detect Evil at will (or, as it's better known, perma-Detect Evil).

As for theft, well, according to the D&D core universe set moral parameters of Law, if someone's dead, they no longer own any material possesions. At least, that's how I interpret it. And any object gained by theivery that can not within reason be traced back to its original owners (the loot in the Beholder's lair) is also considered under no ownership.

For help those in need, well, you know what, take it as you will. I say that if the old lady from the farm runs up to your Paladin and says, "Help, my cat's stuck in a tree!" then the Paladin should respond with "Lead the way, ma'am." Or something along those lines.

On the other hand, something like, "My cat is stuck in a tree and will only come down if you chop your arm off!" would not be responded in a like manner. First, ask why. "Because he's crazy like that." Then, maybe something like, "Could I chop the branch off intead?", and failing any conclusion that a smart person would come to as rational, it would be a request that must be denied. Unless, you know, a Cleric can regenerate your arm for you. Then sure, why the hell not? Growing new limbs is a great way to keep yourself entertained for the next little while. Though it might be easier, at that level, to just teleport the damn thing.

At any rate.

Necessary corresponds to a question of survival. All lives have value, but a Paladin is charged to uphold that value and has the will to actually accomplish it, where some will try to actively deter you. It's one thing for a Paladin to sacrifice his life to save a commoner. That commoner may then be inspired to do good later; however, it's something different to be killed because you don't want to knock out the Ogre who won't listen to your Diplomacy check because you don't have any ranks in it and you haven't hit seventh level. That's just stupid. If something is attacking you, and you can't convince it to stop within a reasonable amount of time (probably one round in most cases), then fighting back or retreating are your only options for survival. If you retreat, though, then whatever has the guts to take on an armoured Paladin certainly won't hesitate for the next commoner that it crosses paths with, so running away won't preserve the cause of good. Hence, the only option left for survival is fighting.

As for the necessity of lethal damage, creatures with regeneration, undead, and contructs can't be hurt with non-lethal damage. If forced into combat against one of these creatures by the above rules, lethal force is your only option. Likewise, some evil creatures are simply too powerful to subdue and imprison, likely because no prison could easily hold them. In order to stop this creature from doing harm to innocents and hindering the cause of good, its life must be forfeit.

You see why I didn't want to go into all that for the sake of a class feature? I understand why it might be necessary, but that's a lot of stuff to go through, and mechanically is difficult to uphold. "Use Common Sense" is not a game-mechanic or class feature, it's a player and DM requirement.

As for the Puretorch Blade hurting things instead of giving it negative levels. A negative level, even if it can only be removed by releasing the weapon, really doesn't do sweet fvck-all to anything above 10th level, is barely noticeable from 6th to 9th, and is too noticeable below that. It's nice in some ways, but it won't stop the Babau from picking it up and running away with it. Taking damage and making Reflex saves every round, on the other hand, will. A Paladin can't simply dismiss this weapon; if it gets stolen and tossed to the bottom of an ocean, he's going to have buy weapons like everyone else until he reaches a level where he can teleport it back. I want to make stealing this thing a damn pain, and that seemed the best way to do it. A negative level wouldn't make any difference, and damage does.

And again to reiterate. The Puretorch Blade is, essentially, a free magic weapon. They can cast greater magic weapon, but they don't need to. They can cast Holy Sword, but they don't need to. It doesn't even have to be MWK. It's a bonus. A nice one, really. If, for some reason, they have misplaced their Puretorch Blade, or its been stolen, they can still buy magic weapons, or cast their spells. If they want a flaming/icy/shocking/thundering/merciful chain dagger or whatever the crap, they can still get it like anyone else.

And it's not intelligent, it's semi-intelligent. I gave it the mental stats of a dog. I assume that, through the magical creation process, this dog is fully-trained and entirely loyal. If nothing else, it's simply not smart enough to say no to the Paladin that created it. It has no ego score for good reason. There aren't even actual rules for making an item that doesn't have at least two stats at 10 and one at 12. The stats are only even there for reference purposes; essentially, to define what semi-intelligent means in this case.

Next point.

The point of the Stamina abilities is to effectively duplicate spell effects without being spells. Yes, I realise there is probably a better way to do that. I haven't had the chance to really sit down and work on it, but I'll get to it.

Finally, under the Turn Undead description, it says "as a Cleric of his level". That's fairly clear, I think.

Overall, thank you for your advice, and it is all noted. I do agree I need to make his role in the party more definitive, but before I get to that, I want to make sure he can hold his own on his own. I'll clarify under the alignment description about DM's option, as I should have in the first place, but I won't change the Code of Conduct. I'll list underneath "To be discussed by DM and Player", though. People should decide for themselves before the game what the Code of Conduct means to them. I still disagree that the class abilities, in and of themselves, are overcomplex, but yes, I do realise that the class mechanics as a whole provide a lot for one person to keep track of. As previously stated many times, I'm working on a new version, but I'm not scrapping this one.

Again, thank you. I enjoyed reading your response, and look forward to more.
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Re: The Paladin Re-Done

Post by Catharz »

So, which are greater evils to a paladin: Choice theft/falsehood, or death?

Choice theft revolves aound forcing people to act in ways which they normally would not, either due to compulsion or misinformation. Example: If you lie to a woman and tell her that her husband is unfaithful and planning to kill her, because you know he is evil and that he is planning to summon a demon which wil wreak havok on the city, you are perpetrating 'choice theft' against her. You are performing an action for the greater good, but you're doing it by lying to a person, and 'making' them betray a loved one. She doesn't have a 'choice,' because you bluff at +30.

So instead, you ask to see her husband. If she asks why, you can say 'I'd rather not tell you,' but if she persists you say "I'm going to try to kill him because he's trying to summon a demon. If you have to, you kill her to get to him.

Seeing choice theft as a great evil would basically ban a paladin from using cumpulsions, the Bluff skill, figments & glamours to directly affect anyone (so an illusory pit or brige aren't allowed, but being invisible is). The diplomacy skill would be OK because you (in theory) can ony use it to convince someone you're telling the truth when you are, or to make someone your friend (but they retain their alignment).

Imprisonment is also immoral. It is better to kill someone (and send them to their final destination) then to take away all choice like that.

Similarly, in an extreme edge-case of this, fighting to subdue is immoral. If somebody wants to kill you, it is your moral obligation to let them try, and to try to kill them yourself (unless they ask for mercy). Death is kinder than failure.--This is a very 'anime-esque,' silly over-application of the idea, but it may be worth using.

If killing is a greater evil, you'll be committing choice theft all the time. You lie to guards so you don't have to fight, charm monsters, and do anything you can to avoid causing death. You're even willing to use spells like Imprisonment on creatures to dangerous to let go free.

In the first example, everything about the paladin in combat should be obvious. You can use a poisoned weapon, but only if it's obviously poisoned (hell, you tell them it's poisoned it it isn't obvious). You never poison food for assassination, although you can allow sombody to kill himself by eating something he knows is poisoned. You'll never leave traps.

In the second case, you've got nothing against poison so long as it isn't deadly. Ditto for traps.

Given the nature of D&D cosmology, I'd go with choice theft as the 'greater evil.' When you kill someone, they go to an afterlife on the outer planes. Much like an Inquisitor of old, you can 'let God sort them out.'

Then you need to figure out how to keep a character who can't feint in combat tactically interesting, and keep him from being too disruptive. He may start combat by saying 'hey, you over there. Yes, you. I'm going to kill you. My companions are hidden in the shadows and ready to attack, so watch out!' This is OK, because his allies are still hidden and he isn't going to spoil that. He just lets the enemy know. He can still trip and use terrain to his advantage. He can even flank.

The abilities that you give to each kind of character would be radically different. The first gets 'he who strikes last strikes best,' while the second gets Imprisonment as a spell-like ability. The first gets Destroy Undead, while the second gets Turn Undead.
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Re: The Paladin Re-Done

Post by Brobdingnagian »

You know, maybe I should just put under the code of conduct, "Paladins have some kind of code. Usually. So, you and your DM discuss it, and decide what will work best. Keep in mind a Paladin should, in most cases, instinctively know whether or not a certain action would violate his code, even though his player may have trouble deciding."

The point of the Code of Conduct is to set certain guidelines. The specifics really should be worked out by the person playing the Paladin and the DM. If it'll make everyone happy, I'll replace it with the above statement.
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Re: The Paladin Re-Done

Post by Judging__Eagle »

Off topic, but Catharz, the whole "God will know his own" quote is from the Crusades.

A crusder Bishop told his troops to kill everyone in a village, even possible christians, with the above as his reasoning.
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Re: The Paladin Re-Done

Post by Catharz »

Judging__Eagle at [unixtime wrote:1173043136[/unixtime]]Off topic, but Catharz, the whole "God will know his own" quote is from the Crusades.

A crusder Bishop told his troops to kill everyone in a village, even possible christians, with the above as his reasoning.
Hmm, I was just refering to what seemed to be the philosophy of The Inquisition, but that quote is a great example of paladin morality in action :)


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Re: The Paladin Re-Done

Post by Judging__Eagle »

Nah, The Inquisition was all about uncovering heretics that would undermine their faith.

They also gave themselves ridiculous restictions that weren't restrictions at all.

One of them was that they wouldn't spill a person's blood.

But they used drowing, suffocating, streching, pressing and any number of pleasant methods to procure a confession.

Also, their execution method, burning or hanging, was part of their self-imposed non--restriction.

Plus, they gave themselves wierd rules like: "If we go to arrest someone and they declare that they are a(n) X, before we actually grab them, we can only deport them."
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Re: The Paladin Re-Done

Post by Brobdingnagian »

See, thing is, a person can escape from a prison, or better yet, learn from their mistakes and be set free. A person can not be freed from death. At least, not until seventh level. Coincidentally, that's about the same level where you can insta-kill someone without the "knock them out and coup-de-grace" method. The D&D universe at higher levels becomes very convoluted as to what may or may not be a good thing to do, because almost any condition becomes reversable. Killing a Balor, or any high-level outsider, is really just a mild inconvenience for it. Stopping evil is, quite simply, impossible. On the same note, stopping good is impossible. A Paladin is charged to uphold good, but that makes it a pointless class because good upholds itself. It's hard to find actual reasoning for anyone to pursue this class or even a sense of morals once interplanar travel comes in. Paladins belong on the Material Plane because that's the only place they can seriously make a difference, and on the Material Plane, death can actually be an issue. Not everyone gets to come back; just the people with friends in high places that can bring them back. This is my reasoning behind Paladins not being allowed to kill indiscriminately. I'm not going to say it's right, just that it fits.
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Re: The Paladin Re-Done

Post by Brobdingnagian »

I recently managed to figure something out about my creation here. The question, "What does it bring to the party?" has been nagging at me, and I finally realised it, and why it's unplayable in D&D.

On its own, it is mechanically balanced. It can hold its own in enough encounters to make it usable.

It is not, despite what people keep saying, overly complex or difficult to play. The PHB Rogue is equally complex, the Dungeonomicon Monk (I love it, by the way), PHB Cleric, PHB Druid, and PHB Bard are all slightly more complex, and the PHB Wizard and RoW Fighter are not only significantly more complex, they are also more difficult to play properly.

I therefore must reason that this class, despite the (arguably) new mechanic of a semi-intelligent weapon, is not overly complex.

Finally the question of "What does it bring to the party?"

I ended up answering this by describing to myself what other balanced classes bring to the party in a normal D&D game, as follows:

RoW Fighter: Stabbing things in the face in a practical, precise, and effective manner.
RoW Barbarian: Stabbing things in the face harder than anyone else.
D Monk: Stabbing things in the face in a generally awesome manner.
PHB Wizard: Stabbing things in the face with magic.
PHB Cleric: Stabbing things in the face with better magic.
PHB Rogue: Stabbing things in the face where it hurts. Also stabbing things in the face with magic/better magic.
My Paladin: Not stabbing things in the face, or circumventing the need to stab things in the face entirely. At the least a general reasoning for a need not to stab things in the face.

Therefore, what my Paladin brings to the party in a normal game is make all the other party members feel useless because they don't do what they're supposed to. That makes him unplayable in a normal game.

I created this class and posted it here under the assumption that, like me, intelligent players attempted to circumvent and avoid combat if it was at all possible to do so while achieving their goals. But D&D is, as a good friend pointed out to me, a game about stabbing things. In the face. Nevermind that a Fighter, played as it should be as an expert tactician, should be doing the most tactically effective method of attempting to avoid combat so as not to consume precious resources. Nevermind that the Rogue should be sneaking around and avoiding conflict entirely rather than helping the Barbarian kill guys by being on the other side. And nevermind that the Clerics should be attempting to convert or imprison people instead of killing the heathens, since that would be more effective. The game is made to kill things, and a class made to avoid doing that ruins it for everyone else.

That being said, I will still, as promised, deliver the Stamina-abilities-as-divine-infusions version. I don't even care if you guys want it or not, I'm bringing it. Some people, at least a couple, might actually enjoy a game that's not about stabbing things in the face. You never know.
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Re: The Paladin Re-Done

Post by Catharz »

So, which is more important to a deity: getting souls or getting worshipers? Because if it's the first one, you really don't want to kill the heathens.
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Re: The Paladin Re-Done

Post by Brobdingnagian »

Heh.

"I attack the Cleric of Nerull and deal... 32 damage."

"He dies. You lose your status as a Paladin."

"What? Why?"

"You just did what Nerull wanted you to do by giving him another soul. In doing a favour for an evil deity, you have committed an evil act and therefore lose your status as a Paladin."

"... Did I level?"

"Yes."

"I'm going Blackguard."

"Try not to kill any Clerics of Pelor."
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Re: The Paladin Re-Done

Post by Catharz »

And we now have a paladin who kills innocents with extreme prejudice but always fights to subdue evildoers.
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Re: The Paladin Re-Done

Post by Brobdingnagian »

Only if he can prove those innocents are devout worshippers of good deities.
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