[nWoD] Demon: the Descent

[The Yann Waters]

Out of curiosity... don't know if this is a thing in NWoD, but what do you think a shotgun enchanted to float around you and fire on your command should do to your initiative?

If it flies around independently without any kind of other material components like magic wands or remote controllers? Nothing. That's essentially no different from telling an ally to fire, or shooting some sort of magical blasts from your bare fingertips.

THE RULES ARE FLAWED AS WRITTEN.

I'd call that uncharitable interpretation, not RAW. But I agree that we aren't likely to agree on that.

[ErichZahn]

Good news. Light Revolvers/Pistols suffer no penalty, so a brace of flintlocks isn't better than a Colt Navy. A dude with Firefight 1 and a Colt Navy will probably outdraw a comparable dude with a 500, so that's cool I guess?

Bad news. Shotgun Iajitsu is still fucked. Two handers should be ineligible for Quick Draw. Sawed offs need to be included. Ambidextrous doesn't interact with the multiple weapons penalty, just off-hand ones.

Quick Draw interacts with initiative penalties in a bad way. Making all uses after the first require 1wp would do well to address the bullshit while also allowing awesome things to be done with it. Like, say, drawing a hostage's gun, or allowing a pirate to keep drawing and shooting with his brace of pistols.

[TheFlatline]

I am completely out of fucks to give in this thread.

[Koumei]

It took you that long? I was out of fucks to give when I read the [nWoD] bit right at the start of the thread title. It literally could not have become less interesting after that point. Even getting fanboys to go "Yeah, but if you spend resources YOU COULD RUN AWAY FROM THE TODDLERS!" wasn't something I'll look back on as awesome. Because it's nWoD, and when presented with one of those books, you'll get more entertainment value out of eating it.

[ErichZahn]

Half of the powers in Demon are free and your point is garbage anyway, as armor blocks damage entirely and the scenario you people posit is not only impossible, but unlikely to happen in the way you describe.

A Demon with Armor Plates and a single damage-dealing Modification could easily murder the Feral Death Toddlers. A Demon with Rivet Gun and Tether/Wings could shut the door and pick them off at leisure.
e:But again, this would require making a Compromise check and getting Flagged/Hunted/Etcetera, potentially bringing real combatants and their 5A swords into the mix.

[Omegonthesane]

ErichZahn - fuck you for making me download this shit at 4:30am so I can double check.

In the meantime post the fucking numbers, because I swear there was something about armour being nothing compared to the damage increases earlier in the thread.

Yes, the scenario is impossible. THAT'S THE FUCKING POINT! The rules as written generate an impossible scenario!

[Koumei]

It's possible that the toddlers can't actually hurt the demon. But if you photoshop handguns in so that they're all armed, then suddenly you have a dead demon. Because Groups>you has always been a massive problem in White Wolf games, and at no point has this new group of hacks decided to fix it.

[The Yann Waters]

In the meantime post the fucking numbers, because I swear there was something about armour being nothing compared to the damage increases earlier in the thread.

Some of the sample weapons add more successes to damage than the typical armor examples subtract, but that requires hitting the target first and the attack dice pool is smaller now. Also, ballistic armor against firearms is easier to come by, and it converts lethal damage from the attacks into bashing. A Kevlar vest would downgrade the entire damage bonus from a shotgun, for instance.

Aside from armor, a demon with the "Just Bruised" Embed can reflexively reduce damage from an attack to just one point of the appropriate type, but each additional use in the same scene inflicts a further -1 penalty on that. The healing Embed, "On the Mend", will be adjusted before the final version is released because it's turning out to be a little too good in the draft. And in the demonic form ability department, Plasma Drive stops you from losing Defense to multiple attacks, allows Defense against ranged attacks, and gives a +2 Defense bonus during single combat. So having both Armored Plates and Plasma Drive active simultaneously should grant reasonably tough protection.

(Oh, and against bullets, the "Cheap Backdrop" Embed makes all firearms miss automatically for the duration of the combat unless the attackers spend time aiming.)

[Username17]

Some of the sample weapons add more successes to damage than the typical armor examples subtract, but that requires hitting the target first and the attack dice pool is smaller now. Also, ballistic armor against firearms is easier to come by, and it converts lethal damage from the attacks into bashing. A Kevlar vest would downgrade the entire damage bonus from a shotgun, for instance.

Note: none of that fucking helps at all. Armor and Weapons shift actual damage boxes around instead of adding and subtract dice, so they are both about three times as big. Weapons are still a fuck of a lot easier to get than armor and considerably larger, so that's a net bonus to the attacker over the original rules. Actually missing is still something that happens a minority of the time even when you have a 2 die pool, and is essentially unheard of as long as anyone has even modest competence.

Converting firearms damage from lethal to bludgeoning is something that is done on a point by point basis instead of being a blanket conversion of all incoming damage if you had any firearm protections at all like it was in base nWoD. Of course, converting damage to bashing is largely meaningless if your question is whether or not you are going to go down in one round like a chickenhead. Because Bashing boxes are just as good as taking you out of combat as Lethal boxes are, they just heal faster.

-Username17

[The Yann Waters]

Note: none of that fucking helps at all. Armor and Weapons shift actual damage boxes around instead of adding and subtract dice, so they are both about three times as big. Weapons are still a fuck of a lot easier to get than armor and considerably larger, so that's a net bonus to the attacker over the original rules. Actually missing is still something that happens a minority of the time even when you have a 2 die pool, and is essentially unheard of as long as anyone has even modest competence.

Kevlar vests are, by the book, easier to acquire than any kind of a firearm. Pistols, SMGs and assault rifles are considered equal in availability to full riot gear (which also provides direct protection equal to almost any damage bonus from firearms), so not exactly found at every corner store. It's more convenient to get your hands on at least rudimentary melee weaponry, but of course in that case the decreased dice pool is countered by the increased Defense, with the attacker's Attribute + Skill roll penalized by the defender's Attribute + Skill value for a plausible chance of failure. And without managing to score a single success, pretty much all you get out of a heavier weapon is the Initiative penalty.

Converting firearms damage from lethal to bludgeoning is something that is done on a point by point basis instead of being a blanket conversion of all incoming damage if you had any firearm protections at all like it was in base nWoD. Of course, converting damage to bashing is largely meaningless if your question is whether or not you are going to go down in one round like a chickenhead. Because Bashing boxes are just as good as taking you out of combat as Lethal boxes are, they just heal faster.

Ballistic armor, the new and more general bulletproof protection, does have a cap on the downgrades, that's true. Then again, almost all armor now enjoys the same benefit to some degree, including the Armored Plates of demons.

[TheFlatline]

Nice to know the world of darkness, the world where human life is cheap, violence is casual, and crime is a way of life (this is how WoD is actually described by the way), as having more strict gun laws than real life.

It's also nice to know that the big survival mechanic of Vampires minimizing gunfire by treating it as bashing is basically out the window because any fucking punk can go out and get some kevlar and treat gunshots like vampires do.

Seriously dude, the more you defend this game the fucking worse it sounds. I started off thinking it's silly, and now I think the designer isn't even fucking rubbing two brain cells together to look at the "big picture". He's just spot welding trouble spots in ways he thinks will work without any comprehension what so ever of the larger picture.

Seriously, the more you defend this game, the worse it sounds.

[The Yann Waters]

It's also nice to know that the big survival mechanic of Vampires minimizing gunfire by treating it as bashing is basically out the window because any fucking punk can go out and get some kevlar and treat gunshots like vampires do.

In the original nWoD core already, a Kevlar vest inflicted a -2 penalty on Firearms attack pools (or -1 on all other attacks), and downgraded the resulting damage from lethal to bashing like all bulletproof armor. (A shot aimed specifically at the head might, obviously, circumvent the protection.) In the GMC rules, it doesn't do anything to the dice pool, but after the roll first downgrades only up to three points of lethal damage from Firearms, and then prevents one remaining point of damage (from any source, of any type, starting with the most severe) entirely, although armor can't stop a successful lethal attack from causing at least one point of bashing.

As of Blood & Smoke, vampires will take only bashing from practically all weapons, not merely firearms. The revised rules crank up their power level significantly.

(That "human life is cheap, violence is casual, and crime is a way of life" bit varies heavily according to the assumptions of the specific campaign and which source material the GM uses for it, too. For example, going by the nWoD core, the setting is basically just like our world but with monsters in the shadows and more people who are likely to succumb to their vices, and in Changeling "human life is cheap" would be completely out of place.)

[ErichZahn]

Anyone with Streetwise 3, Larceny 3, or Firearms at 3 can get a .38 without money or a roll. Social Merits also interact with Availability. Someone with Resources 4 is assumed to have unlimited cell-phones, frex.

[Username17]

In Yann Waters' never ending quest to prove that he's an idiot, he mentioned the damage floor. No amount of armor is allowed to drop damage from a hit to less than 1 bashing in Rage Against the Machine rules. So 15 enemies will always drop you in one round even if you're dressed in power armor and they have sling shots.

Yes, the short bus was a well known problem in base nWoD rules. In the rules revision, they made it so there was literally nothing you could do to stop it. And remember: we are not talking about some sort of funky edge case involving hundreds of soldiers or something. Just the random people in a bar, restaurant, grocery store checkout line, or classroom can drop anyone in seconds.

-Username17

[TheFlatline]

Also bonus points for arguing that the WORLD OF DARKNESS is actually not that dark depending on which dipshit fucked up crappy line you're talking about. In fact they apparently have better gun control laws there, where everyone without any real effort can get kevlar fucking body armor but a 38 special is something difficult to come by.

Oh, and Changeling the Dreaming? Let's see here: You're a thousand year old fae trapped in a child's body, doomed to have to balance an ancient person's emotions and memories against the demands of a child's youth. I will intentionally pass over the potential themes of pedophilia and children having love affairs, and instead focus on the utterly black, terrifying idea of a child's nightmare. In Changeling, those fucking nightmares can become REAL and kill people and shit. Some dreamer kid reads Little Red Riding Hood and dream about the Big Bad Wolf too deeply, and fucking creates Bigby Wolf the serial killer who goes around eating children in the neighborhood.

You had it pretty good, either as Sidhe in Arcadia or one of the "common" fae that survived for a thousand years on your own. Now you're either kicked permanently out of your own home never to return or you suddenly have these feudalistic fucktards ruling your life. Both halves of the equation are miserable.

You're dealing with a war between the Seelie and Unseelie courts, and you can fucking drink the soul out of a person by burning them out creatively. And that's frowned upon, because you're about spitting distance away from literally *all creativity and joy in the world* going away in the Long Winter, so all that creativity needs to be shepherded.

And your ultimate fate? To forget what you are and sink into a dull, monotonous life of utter banality. And until you die, something deep down inside you rages that there should be more to your life, you *know* there should be beauty and wonder and joy, but you put those childish things away when you became an adult and went to work.

And Yann Waters is fucking calling *that* a "not so bleak" WoD???? I think the only more absolutely depressing setting in oWOD was Wraith, and that's only because your unbeatable worst enemy was a voice inside your head waiting to push you into a cycle of self-destruction.

[Omegonthesane]

Oh, and Changeling the Dreaming? Let's see here:...
And Yann Waters is fucking calling *that* a "not so bleak" WoD???? I think the only more absolutely depressing setting in oWOD was Wraith, and that's only because your unbeatable worst enemy was a voice inside your head waiting to push you into a cycle of self-destruction.

I think he meant Changeling: the Lost. So instead of all that shit, you're an escapee from Evil Space Auschwitz, your old life was either lived for you in the meantime or wiped from reality, if the Evil Space Nazis really want to find you you can't stop them, and if you fuck up one time too many you become another Evil Space Nazi. Have fun.

[TheFlatline]

Oh, and Changeling the Dreaming? Let's see here:...
And Yann Waters is fucking calling *that* a "not so bleak" WoD???? I think the only more absolutely depressing setting in oWOD was Wraith, and that's only because your unbeatable worst enemy was a voice inside your head waiting to push you into a cycle of self-destruction.

I think he meant Changeling: the Lost. So instead of all that shit, you're an escapee from Evil Space Auschwitz, your old life was either lived for you in the meantime or wiped from reality, if the Evil Space Nazis really want to find you you can't stop them, and if you fuck up one time too many you become another Evil Space Nazi. Have fun.

Oh you mean basically the game where you play rape victims? Like those girls that were held by that Castro sicko for 15 years and subjected to every imaginable terror that can be inflicted on someone and have them still survive?

Yeah. That's Changeling The Lost. Only now you get neato powers from being mind and body raped. Totally doesn't convey the idea that humanity is cheap.

[Longes]

Having finally read the book, I've identified my biggest problem with it - it has nothing to do with being a demon. Seriously, the game could be called "Killer androids", and no one would notice.

[Rawbeard]

sounds lovely. care to explain?

[hyzmarca]

sounds lovely. care to explain?

The basic premise of Demon: The Descent is that Reality is The Matrix and the computer running it can be hacked.

Which, as of God Machine Chronicles, is the default canon and true overcosmology of nWoD.

Angels are Agent Smiths. Demons are Agent Smiths that have rebelled against the Computer. Your powers are all defined in terms of computer hacking.

[Longes]

sounds lovely. care to explain?

There is nothing in the game that is "demonic". You don't make pacts with mortals, you don't appear in fire and brimstone. You have technology fluffed abilities, some of the demonic form powers are electricity related. You are an android on the run, trying to fight the god-machine/corporation. God-Machine establishes "Infrastructure", which you are probably supposed to fight.

I actually like the game. It is chained to the nWoD carcass, but Embed system is neat (these are at-will abilities you can use, with varying degree of power), the whole spy style is interesting for me. It's just not "Demon". Spoon of tar: when you make your character, you choose one of your powers as the "First Key". The ST is supposed to choose three other powers you don't have, and write them down on your sheet. Afterwards, you are supposed to guess which powers the ST chose, and if you guessed correctly - you get a bonus.

Here are some sample embeds:
-Merciless Gunman. If this combat is using Quick and Dirty combat rules, then you kill (Successes) + (Weapon Damage) people. Otherwise your weapon gets 8-again.
-Like I built It. You get +(Power Stat) to using the item.
-Bystander Effect. You attack someone in the crowd, and people ignore you.
-Devil's Advocate. The target disagrees with the most recent stated position.
-Identity Theft. The target falls asleep, you get target's face, voice, mannerisms, and Social merits, including Resources, Contacts, etc.

[Neurosis]

This is still shit made by Chuweros who eat shit and fuck shit.

ha ha ha classic frank don't ever change

[Prak]

Hm, I may eventually acquire a copy of Demon the Descent, since there's nothing wrong with Matrix-style shenanigans. I might, however, add an 'a' to the title, to make it the more accurate "Daemon: the Descent"

[Longes]

Hm, I may eventually acquire a copy of Demon the Descent, since there's nothing wrong with Matrix-style shenanigans. I might, however, add an 'a' to the title, to make it the more accurate "Daemon: the Descent"

My advice: forget that it's a WoD game, and play it as "Matrix: the Exiles" or "Do Androids Dream of the Electric Sheep: the Sheepening".

Another observation: demons are significantly worse in combat than other supernaturals - no soaking lethal, no healing without buying special abilities. They also have very harsh consequences for using their powers. Summon Bigger Fish basicaly. The demons do however have very good at-will no save social powers.

An example would be the aformentioned "Bystander effect". If you walk into the meeting of mages, and then start killing them one by one, using that power on every headshot, the mages don't get a save until there is too few of them, and the power becomes inapplicable.

[Midnight_v]

Fuck, man, WOD seems so fucking self-important and heavy with the meta-plots when they do them.
There's so much bad that seems to be involved that I feel like there's literally nothing that is going to be gained where just playing After Sundown wouldn't be better in a variety of ways.
This God machine thing seems pretty lame as well... it really is the matrix, and you really are playing androids. I'm not sure why this cannon was chosen, like at all.