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My spellcasting system (nameless as of yet)

 
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Murtak
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:01 pm    Post subject: My spellcasting system (nameless as of yet) Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List


This system is intended to make multiclassing caster classes feasible. The standard DnD rules make this a very unattractive option beyond the dipping of a level or two of a primary caster class. Ideally a wizard 10 / cleric 10, a wizard 20 and a fighter 10 / wizard 10 should be equally powerful.

This new system should be fairly easy to use and should seamlessly fit into normal DnD campaigns. It should also be compatible with the rest of the game, rules-wise. The straight casters should be nearly undistinguishable from another when comparing the old and the new system.

I believe the system I designed achieves all of the above to a reasonable degree. If I had a snazzy name or acronym it would go here, but I don't so you will have to come up with your own if you want to use it.



The Core system
The basics of the system consist of three basic rules. Anything else is added merely to make it work a little smoother.

1. One spell level per class level
When a character gains a level in a primary spellcasting class (cleric, wizard, etc) instead of gaining spell slots from a predefined list he gains a number of spell levels equal to his new class level. He then assigns those spell levels to slots (at the cost of 1 spell level per level of the slot) according to the following rules.

2. Maximum spell level is one half the character level
Characters may not gain a spell slot higher than one half the character level (not class level), rounded up, in this way.

3. Build a pyramid
Characters may not gain more slots of level X than they have of level X-1. Cantrips do not count for this calculation.


Minor additions
These rules should smooth some of the edges of the system. If you decide not to use them the system should still work.

I. High level slots first
When picking new spell slots a character picks the slots one at a time. Each time he must pick the highest slot available under rules 1 to 3.

II. Holding spells
When a character would gain enough slots of level X to let him have two more slots of that level than of the next highest spell level he instead saves the points until he gains his next caster level. Disregard spell levels the character can not cast yet.

III. An extra slot at level 1
When taking the first level of a spellcasting class the character gains not one but two spell levels.

IV. One class, one bonus stat
A character with multiple spellcasting classes that use the same ability for determining bonus spells only gains the bonus spells for one of these classes.

V. Sorcerers
Sorcerers gain two extra spells per day of each spell level they can cast. Sorcerers determine their spells known as other casters determine their spells per day.

VI. Caster level
A characters caster level is twice his level in his spellcasting class, up to a maximum of his character level.


Constraints
Some parts of the game do not work with this system.
a. Discard the old solutions
Classes designed to mimic dualclassing - like the Arcane Trickster or the Mystic Theurge - should not be used in conjunction with this system. Similarly other mechanics designed to aid multiclassed casters (like, say, Illumians or the Spellsword) need to be reexamined.



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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:02 pm    Post subject: Re: My spellcasting system (nameless as of yet) Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

So a 12th level Wizard 6/Cleric 6 looks like this:[code]1 2 3 4 5 6
2 1 1 1 1 1
2 1 1 1 1 1[/code]
A 12th level Wizard looks like this:[code]1 2 3 4 5 6
5 4 4 4 3 3[/code]
With currently a remainder of three.

Your hope that this is
Quote:
The straight casters should be nearly undistinguishable from another when comparing the old and the new system.
could be the case is touching, but obviously doesn't work out. The Wizard picks up a 1st, 4th, and 6th level spell slot.

-Frank

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Aycarus
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:54 pm    Post subject: Re: My spellcasting system (nameless as of yet) Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm not sure how much you can claim it is a completely original design, as I have read of similar approaches before. I think the idea does have the promise of potentially solving some aspects of the multicaster problem. Also, how ranger and paladin spellcasting works under this approach?
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Murtak
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:01 am    Post subject: Re: My spellcasting system (nameless as of yet) Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List


FrankTrollman wrote:
Your hope that this is could be the case is touching, but obviously doesn't work out. The Wizard picks up a 1st, 4th, and 6th level spell slot.

And this of course makes him behave radically different in-game, right? Please. I would welcome some criticism of my system. I would welcome even minor adjustments to make it work better. But telling me that I am a couple spell levels of one of my stated goals? Here, let me highlight a few somewhat important parts of my goals for you.
Murtak wrote:
The straight casters should be nearly undistinguishable from another when comparing the old and the new system.

Murtak wrote:
I believe the system I designed achieves all of the above to a reasonable degree.




Aycarus wrote:
I'm not sure how much you can claim it is a completely original design, as I have read of similar approaches before.

I guess I should be happy to never have claimed this to be a completely original system then.



Aycarus wrote:
Also, how ranger and paladin spellcasting works under this approach?

I am not sure you actually need spell lists for them. You can just take four levels of cleric or druid and get 4th level spells at a loss of just one BAB. I am tempted to just label paladin and ranger spellcasting as another bad multiclassing fix and leave it as is.

I would not mind being able to handle other progressions too, but I am not even sure how those other progressions should work out in regards to multiclassing. I am not even sure that I care what happens when I add a couple levels of some spellcasting class to a paladin. Players rarely use that option as is, and rightfully so.

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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:02 am    Post subject: Re: My spellcasting system (nameless as of yet) Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Murtak wrote:
I would welcome some criticism of my system.


Based on the tone f your reply, I sincerely doubt that. But OK, let's go into some criticism:

The higher level you are, the farther back multiclassing sets you. This is the opposite of what multiclassing is supposed to do. The way multiclassing is supposed to work, setting aside a specific proportion of your levels is supposed to keep you a certain linear amount behind the curve. The way this system works, setting a specific number of levels aside sets you back proportionately on the power curve.

So in an ideal system, taking half or a third of your levels and putting them into some other activity would make you be at some understandable and constant penalty in your capability of dealing with challenges with the types of forces available to you with the remainder. But in your system, taking 1 (one) level out of your busy schedule to take a level of Rogue or Ranger is always going to set you back 2 of your highest level spells. Even as the proportion of your levels given over to other forms of entertainment goes down, the penalty you take to your spellcasting stays constant or even rises.

---

The difference between a half-caster and a full-caster is about four times. That seems wrong to me. It should seem wrong to you as well. The amount of spell levels you have available are N*(N-1)/2, where N is your number of levels in the casting class. That's a quadratic function, which means that if you halve N, you divide the output by about four. A 20th level Wizard has 211 spell levels to play with, and a Wizard 10/Cleric 10 only has 112.

---

The whole thing where you add an extra level at first and then make people sit on some of their spell slots is needlessly complicated and has very little overall effect. If you didn't have any of those rules, spell slots would fill up like this:

[code]1 2 3 4 5 6 7
1
3
4 1
4 3
4 4 1
4 4 3
4 4 4 1
4 4 4 3
4 4 4 4 1
4 4 4 4 3
4 4 4 4 4 1
4 4 4 4 4 3
4 4 4 4 4 4 1
....[/code]

But with those two senseless additions, they fill up like this:

[code]1 2 3 4 5 6 7 R
2
4
4 1 1
4 3 1
4 3 2
5 4 3
5 4 3 1 3
5 4 4 3
5 5 4 3 1 2
5 5 4 3 3 2
6 5 4 3 3 2
6 5 4 4 3 3 2
6 5 4 4 3 3 2 1
....[/code]

Seriously, WTF? That chart is so complex that it requires a guy with an abacus just to generate it. There's no way to easily generate how many spells of any level you should have, you have to look at the chart.

Except... damnit, there is no chart, because every character has their own unique chart. Which brings us to the next problem:

---

A Wizard 9/Fighter 9 has how many spells of which slots again? Well, that depends. If the character has had the good sense to never take a level of Wizard in excess of one more than the number of Fighter levels he possessed at the time, his progression looks like this:

[code]1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1[/code]

But if he took all his Wizard levels first, his progression will look like this:[code]1 2 3 4 5 R
5 5 4 3 1 2[/code]

And if he takes them in some other order... his progression will look like something else entirely. In fact, there are 40,320 different ways for that 18th level character's spell progression to look.

Take that in. There is a character who has 9 levels each of two classes, and there are over forty thousand different ways for that to matter.

These are not minor problems. These are severe problems. In fact, the benefits of this system over the straight multicasters rule from 3rd edition that I am unable to see why people would use it. In practice, this is more confusing and less fair than using Mystic Theurge. And that's really saying something.

-Frank
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Kirin_Corrigan
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:59 am    Post subject: Re: My spellcasting system (nameless as of yet) Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Frank wrote:
A Wizard 9/Fighter 9 has how many spells of which slots again? Well, that depends. If the character has had the good sense to never take a level of Wizard in excess of one more than the number of Fighter levels he possessed at the time, his progression looks like this:

[code]1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1[/code]

But if he took all his Wizard levels first, his progression will look like this:[code]1 2 3 4 5 R
5 5 4 3 1 2[/code]

And if he takes them in some other order... his progression will look like something else entirely.


Me on Nifty, about the same subject wrote:
At first sight it looks needlessy confusing.


It's nice to see that I'm not delusional, after all...
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Murtak
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:09 am    Post subject: Re: My spellcasting system (nameless as of yet) Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:
The higher level you are, the farther back multiclassing sets you. This is the opposite of what multiclassing is supposed to do. The way multiclassing is supposed to work, setting aside a specific proportion of your levels is supposed to keep you a certain linear amount behind the curve. The way this system works, setting a specific number of levels aside sets you back proportionately on the power curve.

Those two should be pretty much the same in DnD, no? Every two levels you are supposed to double in power or something like that. Thus being behind two levels should be equal to having one-half the power.


FrankTrollman wrote:
So in an ideal system, taking half or a third of your levels and putting them into some other activity would make you be at some understandable and constant penalty in your capability of dealing with challenges with the types of forces available to you with the remainder. But in your system, taking 1 (one) level out of your busy schedule to take a level of Rogue or Ranger is always going to set you back 2 of your highest level spells. Even as the proportion of your levels given over to other forms of entertainment goes down, the penalty you take to your spellcasting stays constant or even rises.

A quick example. We have a ranger 1 / wizard 3 and a wizard 4. Their spell slots are 3-2 and 4-3. After they both gained two levels these slots are 4-3-2 and 4-4-3 instead. Yet two more levels later they are at 4-4-3-2 and 5-4-4-3

Looking at total spellcasting levels available the multiclassed wizard goes from 7/10 (70%) to 16/21 (76%) to 29/37 (78%). Looks to me like he is catching up, although more slowly that the levelmakeup would suggest (that would be 75%, 83%, 88%). If both of these wizards get a bonus spell for each level from high int those numbers become 10/13 (77%), 22/27 (81%) and 39/47 (83%).

Obviously in a system where the number of extra slots is not fixed you can not have a system which perfectly models the numbers one would expect from the straight proportions of wizard to non-wizard levels. But it seems to me like the above example works well enough. There might well be examples of level progressions that do not work nearly as well, but so far I have not found them.



FrankTrollman wrote:
The difference between a half-caster and a full-caster is about four times. That seems wrong to me. It should seem wrong to you as well.

It does. However, given bonus spells, specialist spells and domain spells the difference is actually less then that (say, between 40 and 50% of a full caster, given identical stats). What I don't like about this is that you have are quite likely to have a nearly identical number of low level spells but quite a few less high level spells.



FrankTrollman wrote:
The whole thing where you add an extra level at first and then make people sit on some of their spell slots is needlessly complicated and has very little overall effect.

I added that one to keep some class progressions from amassing a crapton (double digits) of level 1 spells and few high level spells. I do agree that it is quite clumsy and does not work all that well, but I would like some way to keep progressions like 7-2-1-1 from occuring. Maybe if there was a hard limit at 4 spells per level instead?

FrankTrollman wrote:
If you didn't have any of those rules

Just to make sure I understand your correctly - you mean, the "one extra slot at level 1" and "slots in reserve", right?



FrankTrollman wrote:
A Wizard 9/Fighter 9 has how many spells of which slots again? Well, that depends. If the character has had the good sense to never take a level of Wizard in excess of one more than the number of Fighter levels he possessed at the time, his progression looks like this:
(snip)
But if he took all his Wizard levels first, his progression will look like this:
(snip)

Yep, I don't like that one either. Not so much that people who take their levels in an arbitrarily weird fashion get worse spell progressions. That is a flaw in the system, but one that can be avoided by simply alternating levels. But for those mages who later on decide to become fighters it sucks.

To fix that you would need to retroactively shift spells around though - and I am reluctant to add yet more calculations to the system.



FrankTrollman wrote:
These are not minor problems. These are severe problems. In fact, the benefits of this system over the straight multicasters rule from 3rd edition that I am unable to see why people would use it. In practice, this is more confusing and less fair than using Mystic Theurge.

More confusing I will grant you - looking at a chart is not that hard after all. Let's look at fairness.
You are saying that running around at level 6 with a spell progression of 2-1 / 2-1 is closer to the power of the other 6th level character that one of 2-1-1 / 2-1-1? (For comparison, a 6th level wizard has a spell progression of 3-3-2).

Let's look at level 10. Our Theurge is effectively a 7th level wizard and cleric, giving him a spell progression of 4-3-2-1 / 4-3-2-1, compared to 2-1-1-1-1 / 2-1-1-1-1 and a wizard 10 at 4-4-3-3-2. You are saying that having double the low level spells and no fifth level spells at all is more fair than exchanging a couple of spells (the gap should be a bit closer that what you see here, given domain spells, specialisation and bonus spells) for the versatility of casting off two lists?

Look, I am sure my system is far from perfect. But it certainly is not "less fair than a mystic theurge".



P.S.:
FrankTrollman wrote:
Murtak wrote:
I would welcome some criticism of my system.
Based on the tone f your reply, I sincerely doubt that.

The tone of my reply is based entirely on you posting snide remarks while pointing out that my system is not 100% perfect - which I never claimed it to be in the first place.

I am actually interested in someone pointing out real flaws in my system and you are pretty good at that.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 5:58 pm    Post subject: Re: My spellcasting system (nameless as of yet) Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Murtak wrote:
Those two should be pretty much the same in DnD, no? Every two levels you are supposed to double in power or something like that. Thus being behind two levels should be equal to having one-half the power.


Actually, the opposite. Setting aside half your class levels at the same character level should make you 2 levels behind. You have it being that setting aside 2 levels makes you half power in your spellcasting class, and that's backwards.

Murtak wrote:
Looking at total spellcasting levels available the multiclassed wizard goes from


Total spellcasting levels don't actually mean anything. There's a reason that purchasing an extra 1st level spell slot (via a pearl of power) costs 1,000 GP and purchasing a 4th level spell slot costs 16,000. The gp value of our Ranger 1 Wizard 3's spellslots in this instance drops from 11k out of 16k (5k out of 5400 gp) to 71k out of 97K (26k out of 27000 gp).

From a practical standpoint, that's all of your wealth by level. From a one level dip. At 4th level, and still at 8th level. Does a one level dip give you so many bonuses that it would take all of your wealth to duplicate those bonuses?

Murtak wrote:
added that one to keep some class progressions from amassing a crapton (double digits) of level 1 spells and few high level spells.


What? That really does not seem to be a problem. If you just take Wizard levels straight from now until forever, you don't get more than four slots of any spell level until level 19 (when you get your 5th spell slot in all levels 1 through 4). The bonus spell at first and the mandatory hoarding together really screw up the normal progregression bad.

They might make some other order of level gain work out better, but honestly I see that as a crippling problem of the system overall than I do as a mandate to hand out an extra spell level at level 1 and mandate hoarding.

Murtak wrote:

To fix that you would need to retroactively shift spells around though - and I am reluctant to add yet more calculations to the system.


Forcing people to "simply alternate levels" is completely losing the entire purpose of an open multiclassing system. If there is only one or two correct ways to get to 18th level as a Fighter/Wizard instead of nearly fifty thousand, then you've failed.

And yet, any calculation which involves character level, class level, and has a multi-spell level output requires a 3 dimensional table to explain, and that means that it can't come in a book. A computer could do it with little problem. Just type in your caster level and your character level and it would output your spell progressions. So that would be workable in a computer format.

But that's completely unacceptable for table-top play. If it involves anything more complicated than addition, subtraction, and multiplication (and indeed, extrapolating what your spell slots are going to look like a few levels down the line under this system as is is a messy calculus problem that I can't even figure out how to do), is just not workable.

If it's going to take you more than a minute to tell someone how much magic their 3rd level Ranger is going to have if they take 6 levels of Wizard, starting now, then something is horribly horribly wrong.

Murtak wrote:
Look, I am sure my system is far from perfect. But it certainly is not "less fair than a mystic theurge".


Actually, yes it is. The Mystic Theurge allows someone to take half their levels in two classes in any order and walk out with being 3 total levels behind in both classes. That sucks. WotC's own rubric says that they should be only 2 levels behind in both classes.

But your rubric makes them have half the total spell levels overall and then split them between two classes. And there's no guaranty that after 16 levels they are going to be able to cast spells of even 7th level in either class.

Consider the Cleric-Cleric-Cleric, Wizard-Wizard-Wizard entrance into Mystic Theurge. It's pretty common, for a number of reasons. Your spell slots in Cleric look like this:
4 1
But your spell slots in Wizard look like this:
1 1 1

Why? That's really dumb. The Mystic Theurge is a bad deal, but it's fair. And if you drop the entrance requirements to comething manageable (like Arcane and Divine Caster Level 2), it's even playable right through to the end (at which point you immediately begin to suck, but that's a separate issue). Your system isn't playable (because the math is too complicated for me), and isn't fair.

-Frank
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Crissa
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:58 pm    Post subject: Re: My spellcasting system (nameless as of yet) Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I have to agree with Kitten Corrigan, Murtak. I don't understand your system.

A simpler system like yours should have:
  • Cap on total spells in a level;
  • Grant spells each level, whether or not it's a spellcasting level;
  • Not care the order by which levels were taken.
  • Rely less on Algebra (this really bugs me, but it's true) and more on a simple chart.

    My simple solution hands out:
  • Caster levels based on Character levels - like BAB, Fighter gets .5, Wizard gets 1, and Cleric gets .75 (Base Spell Bonus?);
  • Removes Spell Level from the calculation (except for Wizards);
  • Retains low-progression casters as getting Full Caster Levels but less known spells;
  • Removes the difference in Caster Level between Arcane, Divine, etc;

    Of course, I don't know if this fixes anything in practice.

    My questions about your system are:
  • What is your system supposed to accomplish?
  • What does it accomplish?
  • Does this face the disparity of spells known by Sorceror, Wizard, Cleric, etc?
  • How does it work with other spellcasting progressions?

    -Crissa
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    Murtak
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    PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 9:15 pm    Post subject: Re: My spellcasting system (nameless as of yet) Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List


    FrankTrollman wrote:
    Actually, the opposite. Setting aside half your class levels at the same character level should make you 2 levels behind. You have it being that setting aside 2 levels makes you half power in your spellcasting class, and that's backwards.

    Huh? If (level - 2) is supposed to be the same as (power / 2) how does it matter whether you half your power or sibstract 2 from your level?



    FrankTrollman wrote:
    Murtak wrote:
    Looking at total spellcasting levels available the multiclassed wizard goes from

    Total spellcasting levels don't actually mean anything. There's a reason that purchasing an extra 1st level spell slot (via a pearl of power) costs 1,000 GP and purchasing a 4th level spell slot costs 16,000. The gp value of our Ranger 1 Wizard 3's spellslots in this instance drops from 11k out of 16k (5k out of 5400 gp) to 71k out of 97K (26k out of 27000 gp).

    That sort of thing is damn hard to calculate accurately. You are right when you say that a high level slot is generally more valuable than several low level slots. However the pearl of power pricing system does not work either. I am not convinced a second level slot is four times as powerful as a first level one and I also doubt a 9th level slot is a mere 25ish % more powerful than an 8th level slot.

    Hmm .... perhaps 2^(spell level -1)? After all you generally gain spell levels every two character levels, and every two levels you should double in power. Not that I am convinced that any such formula accurately reflects the actual worth of spells in-game, what with all the divine power, greater magic weapons and other scaling crap floating around.
    Well, that was not very concise - bottom line, it is quite hard to judge what spell level is how much better than the last one.



    FrankTrollman wrote:
    Forcing people to "simply alternate levels" is completely losing the entire purpose of an open multiclassing system. If there is only one or two correct ways to get to 18th level as a Fighter/Wizard instead of nearly fifty thousand, then you've failed.

    Currently neither alternating fighter and wizard levels, nor going from fighter to wizard levels, nor going form wizard to fighter levels works. Obviously it would be great if all of them work. But if I can get just two of them (alternating and wizard levels last) to work I prefer that to the old system.



    On the whole mystic theurge deal:
    If by "fair" you mean "works regardless of the order you take the levels in", then yes, it is more fair than my system. And yes, you can make it a whole lot better by changing the entry requirements. But what the class utterly fails at is solving caster multiclassing. After you make it work (which is admittedly not all that hard - structurally it already works after all) you have a single character type that works. And if you have a player who wants to play a mage-killer / sacred fist instead of wizard / cleric or who wants to play a paladin / cleric or a fighter / sorcerer you have to tell him "sorry, no can do" or you have to design a new prestige class for that player.



    By the way - you tell my one of the main reasons my system kicks multiclassed casters in the nuts is because the lose out on high level slots (which are worth more than low level ones). Yet you propose that multiclassing should make you lose your highest level spells entirely. How come? After all, if losing 5K worth of pearls of power is not fair, how can it be fair to lose 9K worth of pearls on top of not being able to cast 2nd level spells at all? Or, using the other example, 42K and 4th level spell access instead of 26K.

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    PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 8:22 am    Post subject: Re: My spellcasting system (nameless as of yet) Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    Murtak wrote:
    By the way - you tell my one of the main reasons my system kicks multiclassed casters in the nuts is because the lose out on high level slots (which are worth more than low level ones). Yet you propose that multiclassing should make you lose your highest level spells entirely.


    The difference between a "level-dip" and a "half-caster". If someone is a half wizard, they should be at most 2 levels behind the full wizard curve. People who take a level dip should be proportionately less far behind the curve.

    Or so the D&D CR system tells us. In practice, the power of an 8th level fighter is not double that of a 6th level fighter. And the powers of a 6th level Wizard do not exactly double the effectiveness of a 6th level Fighter. And two CR 6 monsters aren't as challenging as one CR 8 monster. And so on and so on.

    But the reason that the D&D multiclassing system doesn't work so well in the face of spellcasters is because it conforms even less to the CR systemic ideal than does everything else. If you wanted to make something for D&D that we could even pretend to call balanced, you would want it to conform to the CR regulations. And that means that a character who is level N and has N/2 levels of Wizard should behave as a Wizard level N-2 and have full synergy of abilities with his other level's proficiencies and class features.

    And if you want it to be playable, it should be both easily looked up in a table in the book (which means that the information must be displayable in 2 dimensions), and it must be easy to calculate if the book doesn't happen to be in front of you (which means that under no circumstances are there to be quadratic progressions nor are there to be remainders and carry-overs between levels).

    And finally, if it i to be worth anything, it has to be order independent. The only thing I should have to tell you is that I'm playing a Wizard 9/Rogue 3. I shouldn't need to specify that I'm playing a Wizard, Wizard, Rogue, Wizard, Wizard, Wizard, Wizard, Rogue, Wizard, Wizard, Rogue, Wizard. That's just a non-starter from the get-go.

    -Frank
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    PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:09 am    Post subject: Re: My spellcasting system (nameless as of yet) Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    FrankTrollman wrote:
    Murtak wrote:
    By the way - you tell my one of the main reasons my system kicks multiclassed casters in the nuts is because the lose out on high level slots (which are worth more than low level ones). Yet you propose that multiclassing should make you lose your highest level spells entirely.

    The difference between a "level-dip" and a "half-caster". If someone is a half wizard, they should be at most 2 levels behind the full wizard curve. People who take a level dip should be proportionately less far behind the curve.

    But under the current system someone who is down two levels of (insert caster class here) is down more total spells levels per day and more spells levels^2 (the calculation you used) and on top of that they lose access to a full spell level entirely. Even if I use your accounting system my system hands out more power to a half-wizard than (full wizard -2) does, and yet you tell me my system hands out too few spells.



    FrankTrollman wrote:
    But the reason that the D&D multiclassing system doesn't work so well in the face of spellcasters is because it conforms even less to the CR systemic ideal than does everything else. If you wanted to make something for D&D that we could even pretend to call balanced, you would want it to conform to the CR regulations. And that means that a character who is level N and has N/2 levels of Wizard should behave as a Wizard level N-2 and have full synergy of abilities with his other level's proficiencies and class features.

    That would be fine if the spell system universally stacked with the physical combat system and the skill system. They don't though, and unless you are willing to rework all of those this approach simply won't work.

    But if you can arrive at the proper power level by making the (power / 2) calculation instead of the (level - 2) calculation things should work out a lot better than they do now, right? Of course that is a big if - but that is what this discussion is for.



    FrankTrollman wrote:
    And if you want it to be playable, it should be both easily looked up in a table in the book (which means that the information must be displayable in 2 dimensions), and it must be easy to calculate if the book doesn't happen to be in front of you (which means that under no circumstances are there to be quadratic progressions nor are there to be remainders and carry-overs between levels).

    You know, if I emerge with a system that happens to work but is too complicated to use without computer assistance I may just say "oh well, too bad", write a little program to handle the calculations and post the code here so those who are interested in it to use.

    The core of system - add one spell level per caster class level - should not really be too complicated for anyone to work out, and neither should be rules 2 and 3. Right? All the rest is really just there to make the progression work smoother, which unfortunately adds quite a bit of overhead considering the gain.



    FrankTrollman wrote:
    And finally, if it i to be worth anything, it has to be order independent. The only thing I should have to tell you is that I'm playing a Wizard 9/Rogue 3. I shouldn't need to specify that I'm playing a Wizard, Wizard, Rogue, Wizard, Wizard, Wizard, Wizard, Rogue, Wizard, Wizard, Rogue, Wizard. That's just a non-starter from the get-go.

    I agree that it should really be level independent. The problem is, if you want multiclassed caster to not lag behind in spell levels and if you have classes which do not further your spellcasting then you simply can not solve this problem without some sort of complete recalculation each level. And if you do let them lag behind in spell levels you get the current nonfunctional system.

    If I go with the computer program I could just recalculate each level I guess.

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    PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:15 pm    Post subject: Re: My spellcasting system (nameless as of yet) Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    FrankTrollman wrote:

    But the reason that the D&D multiclassing system doesn't work so well in the face of spellcasters is because it conforms even less to the CR systemic ideal than does everything else. If you wanted to make something for D&D that we could even pretend to call balanced, you would want it to conform to the CR regulations. And that means that a character who is level N and has N/2 levels of Wizard should behave as a Wizard level N-2 and have full synergy of abilities with his other level's proficiencies and class features.

    And if you want it to be playable, it should be both easily looked up in a table in the book (which means that the information must be displayable in 2 dimensions), and it must be easy to calculate if the book doesn't happen to be in front of you (which means that under no circumstances are there to be quadratic progressions nor are there to be remainders and carry-overs between levels).

    And finally, if it i to be worth anything, it has to be order independent. The only thing I should have to tell you is that I'm playing a Wizard 9/Rogue 3. I shouldn't need to specify that I'm playing a Wizard, Wizard, Rogue, Wizard, Wizard, Wizard, Wizard, Rogue, Wizard, Wizard, Rogue, Wizard. That's just a non-starter from the get-go.


    Is it even possible to fulfill all three ideals simultaneously under a level-based system? Presuming you have a caster class "Red" and a non-caster class "Blue", you would presume that levels in "Blue" would not contribute to your casting ability. In order for your "Red" levels of order N/2 to maintain an actual power of N-2, you'd requrie that "Blue" contribute to your spellcasting ability - assuming a Red N/2 / Blue N/2 progression. Which is actually somewhat reasonable until you impose the third constraint, which would mean that a Blue N/2 / Red N/2 progression would require that former levels in Blue make you reasonably competitive as a Red.

    The only reasonable method I can think of to keep this simple is to have characters level up in Purple (ie. Mystic Theurge) once they've achieved Blue 2 / Red 2. However, this becomes hopelessly complicated once you add a third class. You already have 45 different double-hybrid classes when you have 10 base classes and another 120 triple-hybrid classes. Speaking of which - how far behind the curve should triple-hybrid classes be?

    Either that, of course, or impose a level based system where a character of level N/2 is always half as powerful as a character of level N. But that requires logarithms to manage certain aspects, which don't exactly fulfill the second constraint. Plus such a system would fall into the same pitfall once you added a third class to the mix.
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    PostPosted: Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:54 pm    Post subject: Re: My spellcasting system (nameless as of yet) Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    ??? wrote:
    Is it even possible to fulfill all three ideals simultaneously under a level-based system?


    Yes. The key here is that at no time can a level of Blue give as its bonus "+1 to Blue Tasks". If you do that, you're sunk. Instead you have levels of Brown, which are subsequently spent on Blue, Red, Yellow, Puce, and whatever else is available in the system. Your total bonus to everything you can do comes from your Brown levels, and then what you can do comes from how those Brown levels are spent.

    ??? wrote:
    Either that, of course, or impose a level based system where a character of level N/2 is always half as powerful as a character of level N. But that requires logarithms to manage certain aspects, which don't exactly fulfill the second constraint.


    It doesn't actually need to use Logs, it just needs to not be based on modifying a core Random Number Generator. If instead you had a system not unlike Shadowrun 4th Edition or Burning Wheel, where you had some number of d6s and rolled them in a pile, counting every one that came up 4 or higher as a success, then doubling the level would indeed double your power.

    The key is that whatever your goal is, you need to make the math conform to that. Then you can write in flavor text afterwards.

    -Frank
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    PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 3:15 am    Post subject: Re: My spellcasting system (nameless as of yet) Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    FrankTrollman wrote:
    ??? wrote:
    Is it even possible to fulfill all three ideals simultaneously under a level-based system?


    Yes. The key here is that at no time can a level of Blue give as its bonus "+1 to Blue Tasks". If you do that, you're sunk. Instead you have levels of Brown, which are subsequently spent on Blue, Red, Yellow, Puce, and whatever else is available in the system. Your total bonus to everything you can do comes from your Brown levels, and then what you can do comes from how those Brown levels are spent.


    How does that maintain the first requirement? (namely that a character with half as many levels in Red is 2 levels behind that of a pure Red character)
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    PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:59 pm    Post subject: Re: My spellcasting system (nameless as of yet) Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List


    Aycarus wrote:
    FrankTrollman wrote:
    The key here is that at no time can a level of Blue give as its bonus "+1 to Blue Tasks". If you do that, you're sunk. Instead you have levels of Brown, which are subsequently spent on Blue, Red, Yellow, Puce, and whatever else is available in the system.

    How does that maintain the first requirement? (namely that a character with half as many levels in Red is 2 levels behind that of a pure Red character)

    It circumvents it. The two levels behind thing is only needed if you do indeed double in power every two levels and on top of that if levels of x and y do not stack to determine total power. So this paradigm is not needed for, say, fighter / paladin multiclassing because their abilities stack just fine.

    If, as I assume Frank suggest, you have a system where your power is determined by character level and your class levels give you options instead of numeric bonuses you can get rid of the entire paradigm, because your class levels do not give you power anyways.

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    PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:07 pm    Post subject: Re: My spellcasting system (nameless as of yet) Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List


    Well, I finally got around to coding my system. I used rules 1, 2, 3 and I. The following is the spells per day progression for a multiclassed wizard, going from fighter 19 / wizard 1 to wizard 20.

    [CODE]Progression for 19 non-caster level(s)
    Level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    1 1 - - - - - - - -



    Progression for 18 non-caster level(s)
    Level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    1 1 - - - - - - - -
    2 1 1 - - - - - - -



    Progression for 17 non-caster level(s)
    Level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    1 1 - - - - - - - -
    2 1 1 - - - - - - -
    3 1 1 1 - - - - - -



    Progression for 16 non-caster level(s)
    Level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    1 1 - - - - - - - -
    2 1 1 - - - - - - -
    3 1 1 1 - - - - - -
    4 1 1 1 1 - - - - -



    Progression for 15 non-caster level(s)
    Level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    1 1 - - - - - - - -
    2 1 1 - - - - - - -
    3 1 1 1 - - - - - -
    4 1 1 1 1 - - - - -
    5 1 1 1 1 1 - - - -



    Progression for 14 non-caster level(s)
    Level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    1 1 - - - - - - - -
    2 1 1 - - - - - - -
    3 1 1 1 - - - - - -
    4 1 1 1 1 - - - - -
    5 1 1 1 1 1 - - - -
    6 1 1 1 1 1 1 - - -



    Progression for 13 non-caster level(s)
    Level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    1 1 - - - - - - - -
    2 1 1 - - - - - - -
    3 1 1 1 - - - - - -
    4 1 1 1 1 - - - - -
    5 1 1 1 1 1 - - - -
    6 1 1 1 1 1 1 - - -
    7 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 - -



    Progression for 12 non-caster level(s)
    Level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    1 1 - - - - - - - -
    2 1 1 - - - - - - -
    3 1 1 1 - - - - - -
    4 1 1 1 1 - - - - -
    5 1 1 1 1 1 - - - -
    6 1 1 1 1 1 1 - - -
    7 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 - -
    8 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 -



    Progression for 11 non-caster level(s)
    Level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    1 1 - - - - - - - -
    2 1 1 - - - - - - -
    3 1 1 1 - - - - - -
    4 1 1 1 1 - - - - -
    5 1 1 1 1 1 - - - -
    6 1 1 1 1 1 1 - - -
    7 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 - -
    8 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 -
    9 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1



    Progression for 10 non-caster level(s)
    Level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    1 1 - - - - - - - -
    2 1 1 - - - - - - -
    3 1 1 1 - - - - - -
    4 1 1 1 1 - - - - -
    5 1 1 1 1 1 - - - -
    6 1 1 1 1 1 1 - - -
    7 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 - -
    8 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 -
    9 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
    10 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 1 1



    Progression for 9 non-caster level(s)
    Level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    1 1 - - - - - - - -
    2 1 1 - - - - - - -
    3 1 1 1 - - - - - -
    4 1 1 1 1 - - - - -
    5 1 1 1 1 1 - - - -
    6 1 1 1 1 1 1 - - -
    7 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 - -
    8 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 -
    9 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
    10 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 1 1
    11 2 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 1



    Progression for 8 non-caster level(s)
    Level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    1 1 - - - - - - - -
    2 1 1 - - - - - - -
    3 1 1 1 - - - - - -
    4 1 1 1 1 - - - - -
    5 1 1 1 1 1 - - - -
    6 1 1 1 1 1 1 - - -
    7 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 - -
    8 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 -
    9 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
    10 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 1 1
    11 2 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 1
    12 5 3 2 2 2 2 2 1 1



    Progression for 7 non-caster level(s)
    Level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    1 1 - - - - - - - -
    2 1 1 - - - - - - -
    3 1 1 1 - - - - - -
    4 1 1 1 1 - - - - -
    5 1 1 1 1 1 - - - -
    6 1 1 1 1 1 1 - - -
    7 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 - -
    8 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 -
    9 3 3 2 1 1 1 1 1 -
    10 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 1 1
    11 2 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 1
    12 5 3 2 2 2 2 2 1 1
    13 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2



    Progression for 6 non-caster level(s)
    Level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    1 1 - - - - - - - -
    2 1 1 - - - - - - -
    3 1 1 1 - - - - - -
    4 1 1 1 1 - - - - -
    5 1 1 1 1 1 - - - -
    6 1 1 1 1 1 1 - - -
    7 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 - -
    8 4 2 2 1 1 1 1 - -
    9 3 3 2 1 1 1 1 1 -
    10 4 3 2 2 2 1 1 1 -
    11 2 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 1
    12 5 3 2 2 2 2 2 1 1
    13 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2
    14 3 3 3 3 3 2 2 2 2



    Progression for 5 non-caster level(s)
    Level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    1 1 - - - - - - - -
    2 1 1 - - - - - - -
    3 1 1 1 - - - - - -
    4 1 1 1 1 - - - - -
    5 1 1 1 1 1 - - - -
    6 1 1 1 1 1 1 - - -
    7 3 2 2 1 1 1 - - -
    8 4 2 2 1 1 1 1 - -
    9 4 2 2 2 2 1 1 - -
    10 4 3 2 2 2 1 1 1 -
    11 4 2 2 2 2 2 2 1 -
    12 5 3 2 2 2 2 2 1 1
    13 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2
    14 3 3 3 3 3 2 2 2 2
    15 5 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 2



    Progression for 4 non-caster level(s)
    Level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    1 1 - - - - - - - -
    2 1 1 - - - - - - -
    3 1 1 1 - - - - - -
    4 1 1 1 1 - - - - -
    5 1 1 1 1 1 - - - -
    6 2 2 2 1 1 - - - -
    7 3 2 2 1 1 1 - - -
    8 2 2 2 2 2 1 - - -
    9 4 2 2 2 2 1 1 - -
    10 3 3 3 2 2 2 1 - -
    11 4 2 2 2 2 2 2 1 -
    12 3 3 3 2 2 2 2 2 -
    13 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2
    14 3 3 3 3 3 2 2 2 2
    15 5 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 2
    16 4 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3



    Progression for 3 non-caster level(s)
    Level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    1 1 - - - - - - - -
    2 1 1 - - - - - - -
    3 1 1 1 - - - - - -
    4 1 1 1 1 - - - - -
    5 4 2 1 1 - - - - -
    6 2 2 2 1 1 - - - -
    7 3 3 2 2 1 - - - -
    8 2 2 2 2 2 1 - - -
    9 3 3 2 2 2 2 - - -
    10 3 3 3 2 2 2 1 - -
    11 3 3 3 3 2 2 2 - -
    12 3 3 3 2 2 2 2 2 -
    13 5 4 3 3 3 2 2 2 -
    14 3 3 3 3 3 2 2 2 2
    15 5 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 2
    16 4 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3
    17 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 3



    Progression for 2 non-caster level(s)
    Level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    1 1 - - - - - - - -
    2 1 1 - - - - - - -
    3 1 1 1 - - - - - -
    4 3 2 1 - - - - - -
    5 4 2 1 1 - - - - -
    6 3 2 2 2 - - - - -
    7 3 3 2 2 1 - - - -
    8 3 3 3 2 2 - - - -
    9 3 3 2 2 2 2 - - -
    10 4 4 3 3 2 2 - - -
    11 3 3 3 3 2 2 2 - -
    12 4 3 3 3 3 3 2 - -
    13 5 4 3 3 3 2 2 2 -
    14 6 4 3 3 3 3 3 2 -
    15 5 3 3 3 3 3 3 2 2
    16 4 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3
    17 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 3
    18 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3



    Progression for 1 non-caster level(s)
    Level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    1 1 - - - - - - - -
    2 1 1 - - - - - - -
    3 2 2 - - - - - - -
    4 3 2 1 - - - - - -
    5 3 3 2 - - - - - -
    6 3 2 2 2 - - - - -
    7 5 3 3 2 - - - - -
    8 3 3 3 2 2 - - - -
    9 3 3 3 3 3 - - - -
    10 4 4 3 3 2 2 - - -
    11 4 4 3 3 3 3 - - -
    12 4 3 3 3 3 3 2 - -
    13 5 4 4 3 3 3 3 - -
    14 6 4 3 3 3 3 3 2 -
    15 6 4 4 4 3 3 3 3 -
    16 4 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3
    17 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 3
    18 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3
    19 5 5 5 5 4 4 4 4 4



    Progression for 0 non-caster level(s)
    Level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    1 1 - - - - - - - -
    2 3 - - - - - - - -
    3 2 2 - - - - - - -
    4 4 3 - - - - - - -
    5 3 3 2 - - - - - -
    6 4 4 3 - - - - - -
    7 5 3 3 2 - - - - -
    8 4 4 4 3 - - - - -
    9 3 3 3 3 3 - - - -
    10 4 4 4 4 3 - - - -
    11 4 4 3 3 3 3 - - -
    12 4 4 4 4 4 3 - - -
    13 5 4 4 3 3 3 3 - -
    14 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 - -
    15 6 4 4 4 3 3 3 3 -
    16 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3 -
    17 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 3 3
    18 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 3
    19 5 5 5 5 4 4 4 4 4
    20 7 5 5 5 5 5 5 4 4


    [/CODE]

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    Murtak
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    PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:11 pm    Post subject: Re: My spellcasting system (nameless as of yet) Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List


    And this is the ugly, non-commented PHP code. If anyone is interested in using and/or modifying this I can rework it to be a little easier on the eyes or more understandable. If someone actually wants to host it I can also write a HTML user interface for it.

    [CODE]
    FUNCTION returnSpellLevels($level){
    $spellLevels = 0;
    FOR($i = 1; $i <= $level; $i++){
    $spellLevels += $i;
    }
    RETURN $spellLevels;
    }

    FUNCTION returnNextSlot($slots, $availableSlots){
    $slotCounter = 10;
    $nextSlot = FALSE;
    FOREACH($slots AS $currentLevel => $currentSlots){
    IF(($currentSlots < $slotCounter) && ($availableSlots >= $currentLevel)){
    $nextSlot = $currentLevel;
    $slotCounter = $currentSlots;
    }
    }
    RETURN $nextSlot;
    }

    FUNCTION returnSlots($casterLevel, $nonCasterLevel){
    $totalLevels = returnSpellLevels($casterLevel);
    $maxLevel = min(9, ceil(($casterLevel + $nonCasterLevel) / 2));

    FOR($i = 1; $i <= $maxLevel; $i++){
    $slots[$i]= '0';
    }

    $loop = 'running';
    DO{
    $nextSlot = returnNextSlot($slots, $totalLevels);
    IF($nextSlot == FALSE){
    $loop = 'done';
    }ELSEIF($totalLevels < $nextSlot){
    $loop = 'done';
    }ELSE{
    $slots[$nextSlot]++;
    $totalLevels -= $nextSlot;
    }
    }WHILE($loop != 'done');

    FOREACH($slots AS $currentLevel => $currentNumber){
    IF($currentNumber == 0){
    $slots[$currentLevel]= '-';
    }
    }
    RETURN $slots;
    }


    FUNCTION displayPre($casterLevel, $nonCasterLevel){
    FOR($i = 1; $i <= $casterLevel; $i++){
    $levels[$i] = returnSlots($i, $nonCasterLevel);
    }

    echo '
    ';
    echo 'Progression for '.$nonCasterLevel.' non-caster level(s)'.chr(13);
    echo 'Level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9'.chr(13);
    FOREACH($levels AS $currentLevel => $currentSlots){
    IF($currentLevel < 10){
    echo $currentLevel.' ';
    }ELSE{
    echo $currentLevel.' ';
    }
    FOREACH($currentSlots AS $currentNumber){
    echo ' '.$currentNumber;
    }
    FOR($i = 0; $i < (9 - count($currentSlots)); $i++){
    echo ' -';
    }
    echo chr(13);
    }
    echo chr(13).chr(13).'
    ';
    }


    FOR($i = 19; $i >= 0; $i--){
    displayPre((20 - $i), $i);
    }

    ?>[/CODE]

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    PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:23 pm    Post subject: Re: My spellcasting system (nameless as of yet) Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    How do you lose spell slots at first level for the 7 non-caster level progression?

    Murtak wrote:

    [CODE]
    Progression for 7 non-caster level(s)
    Level 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    12 5 3 2 2 2 2 2 1 1
    13 3 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2
    [/CODE]
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    PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 5:33 pm    Post subject: Re: My spellcasting system (nameless as of yet) Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List


    At 12th level you do not have anough spell levels for a second 8th (or even a 3rd) level slot. The leftover points get put into first level slots.

    At 13th level these points (as well as those from gaining level 13) get put into high level slots instead.

    I used to have rule II to fix this, but then I decided that it is not an issue worth fixing. The one thing that still bugs me is that it is possible to lose out on a spell per day (not spell levels per day, but spells per day) in a few rare cases.

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    FrankTrollman
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    PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:04 pm    Post subject: Re: My spellcasting system (nameless as of yet) Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    All you have to do is get the order inclusion and have it set up for every level 1-20 and you're set.

    Now that you've done the first 20 (which represent taking some number of non-caster levels and then taking only caster levels from then on), you can do the rest of the literally millions of possibilities and put it in a graphical form, and then you're done.

    You'll have a system that is every bit as playable as Rolemaster or the General Agreement on Tarriffs and Trade.

    -Frank
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    PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:43 pm    Post subject: Re: My spellcasting system (nameless as of yet) Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List


    Actually what I posted above is all you need to play any combination of multiclassed clerics or wizards up to level 20.

    This is meant to be used for the wizard 5 / fighter 5 as well as the fighter 5 / wizard 5. And that is the reason I wrote up a script instead of a system to be used on pen and paper. And that too is the reason I posted the code instead of just the tables.

    But thanks for playing.

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    PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 12:04 am    Post subject: Re: My spellcasting system (nameless as of yet) Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    Couldn't the entire multiclassing caster problem be fairly simply resolved thusly:

    • Spell slots are gained based on character level. Every class gains spell slots at the Wizard rate. (Sorcerers would have class features that granted bonus slots; Sorcerers and Bards would have class features that allowed them to cast spontaneously).
    • Spells Known are based on caster class level.
    • Spell DCs are converted until 10+1/2HD+Stat, with your spellcasting class determining the stat.
    • The PHB metamagic feats come free with the first spellcasting level of any class; non-PHB Metamagic feats must still be taken as feats.[/list]

      The difference between "full casters", "half casters", and "quarter casters" should be in spells known:

      • Full casters should gain four spells known at each level, and the spells known should be of a spell level equal to or less than half of their class level (rounded up).
      • Half casters should gain three spells known at each level, and their spells known should be of a spell level equal to or less than half of their class level (rounded up) minus two.
      • Quarter casters should gain two spells known at each level, and their spells known should be of a level equal to or less than half of their class level (rounded up) minus four. [/list]


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    RandomCasualty
    Prince


    Joined: 07 Mar 2008
    Posts: 3511

    PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 5:22 am    Post subject: Re: My spellcasting system (nameless as of yet) Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    The main problem I can see from this system lies in the opening caster levels, when you're getting effectively nothing.

    A 15th level fighter starts taking wizard levels. At 16th level, he has 1 1st level slot. At 17th level, he has 1/1. At 18th, 1/1/1, etc. At 16th level, getting 1/1/1 from a single wizard level would probably still not be worth anything.

    Now, to me this doesn't sound all that useful. spending an entire level just to have one 1st level spell slot sounds extremely wasteful. Thats actually less than you get right now. This system allows you to do 50/50 splits pretty well, but it still doesn't help the 15th level guy who wants to start taking wizard levels.
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    Murtak
    Duke


    Joined: 07 Mar 2008
    Posts: 1579

    PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 5:54 pm    Post subject: Re: My spellcasting system (nameless as of yet) Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List


    RandomCasualty wrote:
    The main problem I can see from this system lies in the opening caster levels, when you're getting effectively nothing.

    A 15th level fighter starts taking wizard levels. At 16th level, he has 1 1st level slot. At 17th level, he has 1/1. At 18th, 1/1/1, etc. At 16th level, getting 1/1/1 from a single wizard level would probably still not be worth anything.

    It is a little better than that. With specialisation and bonus spells you will get 3 spells per spell level, atleast for the first few levels. Also I did not bother to implement the extra first level spell in my script.

    So you are looking at 4/3/3/2 .... rather than 1/1/1/1 ...

    Whether or not that is useful as useful for a 16th level fighter as 4 more fighter type levels will of course depend on what you use those slots for.
    I think True Strike x2, Obscuring Mist, Enlarge Person, Blur, Mirror Image, See Invisibility, Fly, Greater Magic Weapon, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Enervation and Solid Fog may make up for the loss of 2 BAB, some HPs and four levels worth of abilities.
    Your mileage may vary, especially if you are not content with buffs, movement spells, divinations and fogs.

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