Where it's never evil to kill orks and goblins

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

Moderator: Moderators

hyzmarca
Prince
Posts: 3909
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:07 pm

Post by hyzmarca »

Kaelik wrote:In the Third Book Jamie stops being a bad guy and starts being someone you like directly in proportion to the amount you see him stop being sexually attracted to his sister.
That's not because she's his sister, though. That's because she's a giant asshole.

If Cersei were less of an insane bitch the whole relationship would be a romantic Lancelot-Guinevere style forbidden true love thing. Heck, it's impossible to even feel bad about the adultery thing given that Robert is a raging abusive alcoholic berk.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that the major thesis of A Song of Ice and Fire is that the Middle Ages were horrible and the nobility are all horrible people.

I never saw the big deal with incest to be honest. If you've got two consenting adults, why should anyone care? I think we'd all be better off as a species if we'd stop trying to define what kinds of sex are okay and which ones aren't. I mean sure, I find the thought of two gay dudes banging each other to be disgusting, but if that's what they want to do behind closed doors, I don't see any reason to actively demonize them for it.
Deleterious recessive mutations. A regressive gene has a much higher chance of being passed on to a child if both parents have it instead of just one. And the child can only inherit the two genes necessary to express the trait if both parents have it.

If the parents are related, they have a much higher chance of possessing matching recessive genes.

Multi-generational inbreeding is known to allow some rather nasty genetic diseases to thrive. Outbreeding makes them much less likely, statistically.

But a single generation of inbreeding isn't that dangerous, statistically. And that danger can be mitigated by genetic screening.
Whipstitch wrote:Basically, if you can't handle being called a pervert from time to time then it's probably just best to stay out of the shock art game.
If you cant say fuck then you can't say fuck the government.

Ultimately shock art is political, or at least it should be. Ultimately the point isn't that things aren't offensive, but that they shouldn't be offensive. Getting pissed off at being called a pervert is part and parcel to that, as it is the ones who are offended who are in the wrong.

(There is, of course, the other side of the shock art coin, showing things that the artist believes are offensive and using them to set the audience against a target, but that's not relevant to the discussion as it has evolved.)
Last edited by hyzmarca on Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.
User avatar
fbmf
The Great Fence Builder
Posts: 2590
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by fbmf »

silva wrote:Yup, thats why I have Kaelik in my ignore list. ;)
Which, since you obviously click on his posts anyway, is pointless.

Game On,
fbmf
User avatar
Stahlseele
King
Posts: 5974
Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:51 pm
Location: Hamburg, Germany

Post by Stahlseele »

@hyzmarca
The inbreeding aspect only becomes a problem if they actually want to procreate with each other.
If it's just for the sex with birth control, it's a non issue.
And you can and do get the same problems even without inbreeding from time to time just due to sheer dumb bad luck. People don't have to be related to have gene-combinations that will mean problems for their offspring after all. It's just that the related parents have a higher chance of having such a combination, not the fact that they are the only ones having it.
Welcome, to IronHell.
Shrapnel wrote:
TFwiki wrote:Soon is the name of the region in the time-domain (familiar to all marketing departments, and to the moderators and staff of Fun Publications) which sees release of all BotCon news, club exclusives, and other fan desirables. Soon is when then will become now.

Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
User avatar
Dean
Duke
Posts: 2059
Joined: Mon May 12, 2008 3:14 am

Post by Dean »

I imagine that incest is reasonable to keep illegal and not just frowned upon specifically because such an enormous portion of it is molestation and rape. It's probably just better for society if we make it super clear that if anyone touches their sister we will come down on them.
DSMatticus wrote:Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. I am filled with an unfathomable hatred.
Cyberzombie
Knight-Baron
Posts: 742
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:12 am

Post by Cyberzombie »

deanruel87 wrote:I imagine that incest is reasonable to keep illegal and not just frowned upon specifically because such an enormous portion of it is molestation and rape. It's probably just better for society if we make it super clear that if anyone touches their sister we will come down on them.
But those are already crimes without bringing incest into it. It's not as if child molestation/rape is any less or more horrific depending on if the person doing it is related to them.
hyzmarca
Prince
Posts: 3909
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:07 pm

Post by hyzmarca »

Stahlseele wrote:@hyzmarca
The inbreeding aspect only becomes a problem if they actually want to procreate with each other.
If it's just for the sex with birth control, it's a non issue.
And you can and do get the same problems even without inbreeding from time to time just due to sheer dumb bad luck. People don't have to be related to have gene-combinations that will mean problems for their offspring after all. It's just that the related parents have a higher chance of having such a combination, not the fact that they are the only ones having it.
That's exactly what I said.
User avatar
phlapjackage
Knight-Baron
Posts: 661
Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 8:29 am

Post by phlapjackage »

I think if you view "family" like a corporation, the cultural taboos against incest make sense (in that context). Corporations typically frown upon romantic entanglements inside the company. This is partially because if the romance goes bad, it can severely negatively affect the company, as well as the employees who have to see each other every day. There's also the power dynamic, where managers aren't supposed to have relationships with lower-tier employees, because the relationship might not be totally voluntary and might feel slightly coerced (consciously or unconsciously) by the less-powerful party (father/daughter and mother/son).

I think it makes sense to view a family like a corporation because of the historical view of the family as something like a "dynasty" - it's built over the years into a force that works for the good of it's members. In olden days marriages weren't for love, they were for joining 2 powerful "companies", or maybe the husband chose a wife who could manage his "company" well. Romance was relegated to outside the company. Yeah sure babies were born, but again those were just to grow the company.

So it's not so much about the physiological problems that can result from incest, but the psychological / social.
Last edited by phlapjackage on Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
Koumei: and if I wanted that, I'd take some mescaline and run into the park after watching a documentary about wasps.
PhoneLobster: DM : Mr Monkey doesn't like it. Eldritch : Mr Monkey can do what he is god damn told.
MGuy: The point is to normalize 'my' point of view. How the fuck do you think civil rights occurred? You think things got this way because people sat down and fucking waited for public opinion to change?
User avatar
Midnight_v
Knight-Baron
Posts: 629
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 10:27 pm
Location: Texas

Post by Midnight_v »

:bored: Fuck you, hyzmarca and your stupid defense of incest. It doesn't even remotely matter sex with daddy is wrong or not. MOST people hate "Motherfuckers" and will go out of their way to put and end to that shit.
They'll say its fucking evil if you ask them btw. They'll make a few other arguments but in the end we just think generally think its evil.
Don't hate the world you see, create the world you want....
Dear Midnight, you have actually made me sad. I took a day off of posting yesterday because of actual sadness you made me feel in my heart for you.
...If only you'd have stopped forever...
hyzmarca
Prince
Posts: 3909
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:07 pm

Post by hyzmarca »

phlapjackage wrote:I think if you view "family" like a corporation, the cultural taboos against incest make sense (in that context). Corporations typically frown upon romantic entanglements inside the company. This is partially because if the romance goes bad, it can severely negatively affect the company, as well as the employees who have to see each other every day. There's also the power dynamic, where managers aren't supposed to have relationships with lower-tier employees, because the relationship might not be totally voluntary and might feel slightly coerced (consciously or unconsciously) by the less-powerful party (father/daughter and mother/son).

I think it makes sense to view a family like a corporation because of the historical view of the family as something like a "dynasty" - it's built over the years into a force that works for the good of it's members. In olden days marriages weren't for love, they were for joining 2 powerful "companies", or maybe the husband chose a wife who could manage his "company" well. Romance was relegated to outside the company. Yeah sure babies were born, but again those were just to grow the company.

So it's not so much about the physiological problems that can result from incest, but the psychological / social.
Marriage dynamics are different in different cultures. The Westermark Effect, on the other hand, is biological.
Stubbazubba
Knight-Baron
Posts: 737
Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 6:01 pm
Contact:

Post by Stubbazubba »

Cyberzombie wrote:
deanruel87 wrote:I imagine that incest is reasonable to keep illegal and not just frowned upon specifically because such an enormous portion of it is molestation and rape. It's probably just better for society if we make it super clear that if anyone touches their sister we will come down on them.
But those are already crimes without bringing incest into it. It's not as if child molestation/rape is any less or more horrific depending on if the person doing it is related to them.
Have you ever tried to prosecute a molestation or rape case? These things are almost impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt in the first place, and letting siblings or parents and adult children tip-toe around that line behind closed doors with no witnesses leads to serious issues because there is often no objective evidence whatsoever. If it's all illegal to prevent the possible abuse, it's much easier. It may not be ideal, but I'll take it.
Omegonthesane
Prince
Posts: 3680
Joined: Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:55 pm

Post by Omegonthesane »

Leress wrote:
Omegonthesane wrote: Angel Sanctuary cometh to mind.
That doesn't support your point at all.
I wasn't deliberately making a point, so I'm not overly concerned. Just citing the only work of media I could instantly remember other than Game of Thrones that involved incest on the part of nominally sympathetic characters.

Which Jaime is even if Cersei isn't.
Last edited by Omegonthesane on Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kaelik wrote:Because powerful men get away with terrible shit, and even the public domain ones get ignored, and then, when the floodgates open, it turns out there was a goddam flood behind it.

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath, Justin Bieber, shitmuffin
Kuri Näkk
Apprentice
Posts: 59
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:49 am

Post by Kuri Näkk »

hyzmarca wrote: Actually, I'm pretty sure that the major thesis of A Song of Ice and Fire is that the Middle Ages were horrible and the nobility are all horrible people.
I do not think so. I would rather say that Martin delights in ridiculing romantic views about middle ages.

The man clearly has problems with his own sexuality or at least had. He has been rather open about it. Nothing fancy to my knowledge. Just being shy, overweight and nerdy. I suppose that writing liberates him. Sexual frustration, rape etc are common in his fiction, whatever the setting. For instance, he has a short story about an obese man transforming into dick of an ape. Really.
Last edited by Kuri Näkk on Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Cyberzombie
Knight-Baron
Posts: 742
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:12 am

Post by Cyberzombie »

Stubbazubba wrote: Have you ever tried to prosecute a molestation or rape case? These things are almost impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt in the first place, and letting siblings or parents and adult children tip-toe around that line behind closed doors with no witnesses leads to serious issues because there is often no objective evidence whatsoever. If it's all illegal to prevent the possible abuse, it's much easier. It may not be ideal, but I'll take it.
I'm not understanding what point you're making here.

To prove statutory rape, you have to prove sex happened with a minor. To proving incest, you also have to prove sex happened. Showing that someone is underage is easy, proving that sex happened is the tough part. I don't see why incest is any easier to prove than statutory rape.
Last edited by Cyberzombie on Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sakuya Izayoi
Knight
Posts: 395
Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:02 am

Post by Sakuya Izayoi »

Cyberzombie wrote:
Stubbazubba wrote: Have you ever tried to prosecute a molestation or rape case? These things are almost impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt in the first place, and letting siblings or parents and adult children tip-toe around that line behind closed doors with no witnesses leads to serious issues because there is often no objective evidence whatsoever. If it's all illegal to prevent the possible abuse, it's much easier. It may not be ideal, but I'll take it.
I'm not understanding what point you're making here.

To prove statutory rape, you have to prove sex happened with a minor. To proving incest, you also have to prove sex happened. Showing that someone is underage is easy, proving that sex happened is the tough part. I don't see why incest is any easier to prove than statutory rape.
The point is that the rule of law is paramount, even when the law is difficult to enforce.
Grek
Prince
Posts: 3114
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:37 pm

Post by Grek »

It's no so much that incest is harder to prove than statutory rape, it's that people care a lot more about failures to prevent it. An 18 year old guy and this 16 year old girlfriend getting it on is considered much less bad than a 40 year old man getting it on with his 20 year old daughter.
Chamomile wrote:Grek is a national treasure.
User avatar
Kaelik
ArchDemon of Rage
Posts: 14757
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Kaelik »

Cyberzombie wrote:
Stubbazubba wrote: Have you ever tried to prosecute a molestation or rape case? These things are almost impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt in the first place, and letting siblings or parents and adult children tip-toe around that line behind closed doors with no witnesses leads to serious issues because there is often no objective evidence whatsoever. If it's all illegal to prevent the possible abuse, it's much easier. It may not be ideal, but I'll take it.
I'm not understanding what point you're making here.

To prove statutory rape, you have to prove sex happened with a minor. To proving incest, you also have to prove sex happened. Showing that someone is underage is easy, proving that sex happened is the tough part. I don't see why incest is any easier to prove than statutory rape.
Maybe you could learn to read? Because literally everything he is talking about is adults. So yeah, to prove non statutory rape you have to go through the entire dog and pony show of arguing about consent. Saying that incest should double down as an additional area of statutory liability because it is so likely to not be consensual that you don't want to argue about it is not a bad thing.

PS, you know statutory rape doesn't apply to minors right? So if someone's brother rapes them when they are 12 should they have to prove they didn't consent or not?
DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.

That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
Starmaker
Duke
Posts: 2402
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Redmonton
Contact:

Post by Starmaker »

Midnight_v wrote::bored: Fuck you, hyzmarca and your stupid defense of incest. It doesn't even remotely matter sex with daddy is wrong or not. MOST people hate "Motherfuckers" and will go out of their way to put and end to that shit.
They'll say its fucking evil if you ask them btw. They'll make a few other arguments but in the end we just think generally think its evil.
Most Russians say gays are evil perverts out to rape children.
User avatar
Midnight_v
Knight-Baron
Posts: 629
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 10:27 pm
Location: Texas

Post by Midnight_v »

Starmaker wrote:
Midnight_v wrote::bored: Fuck you, hyzmarca and your stupid defense of incest. It doesn't even remotely matter sex with daddy is wrong or not. MOST people hate "Motherfuckers" and will go out of their way to put and end to that shit.
They'll say its fucking evil if you ask them btw. They'll make a few other arguments but in the end we just think generally think its evil.
Most Russians say gays are evil perverts out to rape children.
What? Ah I get you. Sure, do continue then. Color me amazed that you guys are so casually cool with incest. I know there's a level of self-righteous insanity on the den, but I forget my #1 lesson here, that there is no morality. . .
Last edited by Midnight_v on Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Don't hate the world you see, create the world you want....
Dear Midnight, you have actually made me sad. I took a day off of posting yesterday because of actual sadness you made me feel in my heart for you.
...If only you'd have stopped forever...
User avatar
Longes
Prince
Posts: 2867
Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:02 pm

Post by Longes »

Starmaker wrote:
Midnight_v wrote::bored: Fuck you, hyzmarca and your stupid defense of incest. It doesn't even remotely matter sex with daddy is wrong or not. MOST people hate "Motherfuckers" and will go out of their way to put and end to that shit.
They'll say its fucking evil if you ask them btw. They'll make a few other arguments but in the end we just think generally think its evil.
Most Russians say gays are evil perverts out to rape children.
And then we feed them to our bears :toilet:
DSMatticus
King
Posts: 5271
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:32 am

Post by DSMatticus »

Midnight_v wrote:
Starmaker wrote:
Midnight_v wrote::bored: Fuck you, hyzmarca and your stupid defense of incest. It doesn't even remotely matter sex with daddy is wrong or not. MOST people hate "Motherfuckers" and will go out of their way to put and end to that shit.
They'll say its fucking evil if you ask them btw. They'll make a few other arguments but in the end we just think generally think its evil.
Most Russians say gays are evil perverts out to rape children.
What? Ah I get you. Sure, do continue then. Color me amazed that you guys are so casually cool with incest. I know there's a level of self-righteous insanity on the den, but I forget my #1 lesson here, that there is no morality. . .
Your "righteous indignation" is actually just stupid fuckery. Are you even reading this thread, or did you just decide to explode randomly and incoherently at the word incest? Seriously. Fucking read, you dumbass. And while you are learning what the actual opinions of the people you are flipping out at are, you can answer a hypothetical that might help you graduate from blind outrage at taboo to the legitimate understanding of the actual problems and issues with incest, which people here were already talking about before you decided to show up and herp a bunch of derp on everyone.

A woman is artificially inseminated with donor sperm, giving birth to a daughter. Another woman is artificially inseminated with the same donor's sperm, giving birth to a son. These two meet and, not knowing of their blood relation, get hitched. In part of planning to start a family, they have some routine genetic testing done to make sure their children aren't at risk for any genetic disorders. The good news is that their children are not in any danger. The bad news, as they learn, is that they are biological siblings. What is the moral obligation of the two siblings in this situation?
Cyberzombie
Knight-Baron
Posts: 742
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:12 am

Post by Cyberzombie »

Midnight_v wrote: What? Ah I get you. Sure, do continue then. Color me amazed that you guys are so casually cool with incest. I know there's a level of self-righteous insanity on the den, but I forget my #1 lesson here, that there is no morality. . .
I can understand being outraged at child abuse, but I just don't see the big deal about two consenting adults deciding to have sex. I just don't think any good comes of the government trying to make certain kinds of sex between consenting adults illegal because some people find it distasteful.
User avatar
Midnight_v
Knight-Baron
Posts: 629
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 10:27 pm
Location: Texas

Post by Midnight_v »

Outrage? Indignation?
I am not. Totally not reading your bullshit matticus. :mrgreen:
Tis a fruitless thing to entertain, because its sooo fare away from killing orcs and gobbo's that I can't force myself to give a shit. Its actually even hard to muster an insult for you, because this shit is totally fucking irrelevant.

Its just you cock-suckers waxing philosophically about stupid non-gaming shitfits about right and wrong... which there's non consistent answer for, beside well "Fuck you I'm right", and occasionally consequentialism.
Which this is totally a gaming site, so there should be some talk about good and evil in the sense of "How does this affect my game world" but you insist on bullshit so...
Nyah, Nyah, nyah
:nonono:
Dsmatticus: God is going to punish you, and your a bad person. For talking about stupid shit... on the internet. . . :shocked:


@ Cyberzombie: You're probably right, but to be honest I'm not even fucking outraged, by it anymore because governments totally are going to do that, and more importantly GET AWAY with doing it, because well thats been happening on earth for a while now. Governments interfer with that shit from abraham banning buggery, to prima nocte, to the supreme court saying you can't have 2 wives...I can even see how you might ROLL that somehow into and adventure about forbidden love and fighting to save it or whatever...but... they're not doing that. They're just ranting endlessly. So: Trolling.
Last edited by Midnight_v on Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Don't hate the world you see, create the world you want....
Dear Midnight, you have actually made me sad. I took a day off of posting yesterday because of actual sadness you made me feel in my heart for you.
...If only you'd have stopped forever...
User avatar
Whipstitch
Prince
Posts: 3660
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:23 pm

Post by Whipstitch »

Pretty sure you're the one actually trolling here. You rolled back into the conversation with a bunch of sentence fragments, smiley faces, gross generalizations and basically said you were disgusted with all of us (even though only a couple people dared venture that incest isn't gross) and have now resorted to the "I was never even mad bro" gambit. If this were facebook I'd be expecting my sister to roll in with a "Go home, you are drunk" gif any minute now.
bears fall, everyone dies
User avatar
Midnight_v
Knight-Baron
Posts: 629
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 10:27 pm
Location: Texas

Post by Midnight_v »

Code: Select all

Pretty sure you're the one actually trolling here
Hmm... I'll work on my technique. My apologies.
Last edited by Midnight_v on Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Don't hate the world you see, create the world you want....
Dear Midnight, you have actually made me sad. I took a day off of posting yesterday because of actual sadness you made me feel in my heart for you.
...If only you'd have stopped forever...
DSMatticus
King
Posts: 5271
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:32 am

Post by DSMatticus »

Whipstitch wrote:Pretty sure you're the one actually trolling here.
I have to ask what made you think saying this was a good idea. Or even accurate. It's not like midnight has a reputation for well-formatted, smiley-free posts that aren't stupid, but now he's playing the "lel mastertroll" defense in a cringe-inducingly awkward attempt to save face.
Cyberzombie wrote:I just don't see the big deal about two consenting adults deciding to have sex.
There are situations in which it is difficult to prove "yes" means "yes, because I want to," and not "yes, because I was afraid to say no." If your boss wants to have sex with you, it might be the case that you say yes because you want to, but it also might be the case that you say yes because the power in your work relationship is inequal and you are afraid that rejecting them will have consequences for your career. Similarly, when your rapist is close to you, it's very difficult to call them out as a rapist, because it involves massive upheaval in your own life. Women stay with abusive husbands, because divorce is scary all on its own and divorcing a man who is violent and unstable is scarier still.

Incest combines both of those problems. Family members are both close enough to you that accusing them of rape will irreparably damage your family and change your life forever, and family members frequently have power over you that might make you afraid to say no in the first place. And those are both still true once you're 18 - young adults are rarely fully independent of their family. If the default assumption is that incest is rape, then issues of consent vs coercion are completely sidestepped in favor of protecting potential victims. I suppose that has a "downside" that some number of "genuine" sibling romances get the axe, but that's pretty negligible.
Post Reply