How to make Shadowrun less bad

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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

I'm going to say it: I don't like mundane protagonists for these games. I mean, yes, the mundanity if not banality of protagonists is pretty much a fixture of classical cyberpunk but that's the part I hate most about the genre. I'm not saying that my protagonists have to be shining Mary Sue badasses like in D&D, I'm just saying that Spider Jersusalem would be a lot more tolerable if he was the protect of some insane cybernetic experiment or was possessed by bug spirits.

Part of the reason why I don't like mundane protagonists for cyberpunk is because I'm fucking sick and tired of people coming up with stealth nerfs for these characters. I think that hackers doing shit like mind controlling people through loudspeaker broadcast or creating holographic illusions with their laptop is fucking awesome... and yet I have to continually listen to people drone on and on about how their immersion is ruined if people aren't allowed to stop the hacking attempt merely by unplugging the server.

The other reason why I don't like mundane protagonists for cyberpunk is because the Vanilla Action Hero/unfazed everyman who rises to the challenge concept for these settings has been done to fucking death. My interest in preserving the hacker as an archetype rose instantly once Frank came up with ways to make the archetype relevant in close-range, infiltratey combat. My interest in the rigger went way up after people pointed out that the concept could be used for mechs. And yet... the proposed implementation of these concepts still left the Mundane Everyman wiggle room to slither into the game. If riggers don't need magic or magic-powered pseudoscience to make their archetype work past the opening phases of the game then that opens the door to make Char Aznar/Duke Togo clone a viable archetype and... EEUGH.

This might put some of my previous statements in a new light. I'll come straight out and admit it: my objection to the hacker and rigger being separate archetypes isn't because I don't think the game can support it mechanically or storywise, it's just that the Mundane Protagonist of a Technological Dystopia Who Rises To the Challenge archetype just so gets on my fucking nerves that I've been looking for any excuse to shoo them out of the game.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Whipstitch »

Dude, we know. I'm pretty sure you do that with every game.
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Lago PARANOIA
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Yes, but it super duper gets on my nerves for cyberpunk in a way that it doesn't for high fantasy or space opera or urban fantasy.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Cyberzombie »

I don't think Shadowrun is designed for super hero protagonists at all. More or less in Shadowrun, your characters are mortal. Even if you're a badass with wired reflexes 3 and a big ton of skill points or even if you're got a 12 magic rating, you can still get taken out by heavy weaponry. Assault cannons and sniper rifles with APDS are pretty much always going to be stuff you don't want to get hit with.

And maybe you get bad ass enough to defeat heavily armored vehicles or dragons, keep in mind that in modern settings, regular soldiers can do that too, so long as they've got rocket launchers or other heavy weaponry.

Shadowrun has always tried to stay out of the superhero genre. A big concern is that you're always worried about armies of faceless goons taking you down, which is why the game is designed with the idea that you're going to be doing raids with lots of preparation and legwork attached. You're supposed to be all about getting in, accomplishing your objective and getting out quickly, before reinforcements arrive. It's not about just blowing up the front door superhero style and being a full blown combat game. If you want that, you're really better off using Mutants and Masterminds or even d20 modern. Then you can have all your Raiden-style street samurais, magic brain-exploding hackers and Lina Inverse mages in a system that better supports them. I'm not saying the high powered stuff isn't cool, but it's just not very Shadowrun-like at all and the SR system itself sucks at doing superhero levels of power.
Last edited by Cyberzombie on Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by unnamednpc »

So basically, what Cyberzombie is saying is that it's not worth having this discussion with him because he is in the wrong thread, as this is the "Make Shadowrun less bad" thread and not the "Keep Shadowrun as it is, and if you change anything, then only to make it fit my own grognardy preferences" thread.[/i]
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Post by Chamomile »

unnamednpc wrote:I don't know. Hiro Protagonist had a strap-on minigun that turned a whole frigate's worth of pirates into red mist in one combat round, well before hitting any sort of genre - intrinsic level cap.
I think if your Sam gets a set of really juiced up cybernetics and a tactical computer that lets him dodge the Rigger's death-fleet's artillery and take out tanks and dragons with his vibro-katana and armor-piercing prototype flechette guns, that would be enough to keep a Samurai player happy through the late - game. Throw in Batman's detective vision for super-sleuthing and some thermo-cloaking shebang and call it a day.
Maybe even let them have a squad of super-loyal clone-troopers.
I'm not sure what exactly the threshold for "super saiyan" is for this discussion, but going by Frank's examples this isn't even close. The hacker, sorcerer, conjurer, and face all explicitly get powers that are on the scale of nations, in some cases because they actually get to command the resources of nations. While this super street sam you're talking about is really impressive by the standards of both the setting and modern day which the setting reasonably closely resembles, it isn't really anything on the same level as having nukes, natural disasters, or arbitrarily large robots on tap. This guy you're talking about can take out like a thousand guys with tanks and helicopter gunships but that is not the same as being able to fight a city and win.
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Post by Cyberzombie »

unnamednpc wrote:So basically, what Cyberzombie is saying is that it's not worth having this discussion with him because he is in the wrong thread, as this is the "Make Shadowrun less bad" thread and not the "Keep Shadowrun as it is, and if you change anything, then only to make it fit my own grognardy preferences" thread.[/i]
There's a difference between fixing an existing broken game and turning a game into something it's not. It'd be equivalent to saying I want to fix Rifts by removing all the supernatural creatures and ultra tech. At that point you're not fixing the game, you're creating a new one. Once you've lost the setting flavor, you can't even call it Shadowrun anymore.

I'm far from a grognard, but there are things you don't change. When someone wants to turn D&D from medieval warriors into space marines, I'm going to call them out and say they went too far. Shadowrun is a lot of things, but it's not nigh invulnerable tech ninjas dueling gundams in the middle of the city.

Now if you want to go and create a new magi-cyberpunk super heroes game about gundam pilots facing off against Raiden-ninjas in a Man of Steel-esque city destruction rampage, then that's fine. Just don't call that Shadowrun.
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Post by Username17 »

unnamednpc wrote:So basically, what Cyberzombie is saying is that it's not worth having this discussion with him because he is in the wrong thread, as this is the "Make Shadowrun less bad" thread and not the "Keep Shadowrun as it is, and if you change anything, then only to make it fit my own grognardy preferences" thread.[/i]
Basically yes. You'll note that Cyberzombie made some balance arguments last page about Riggers and Hackers which were provably false. I demonstrated a counterexample that fulfilled the "if" and not the "then" of his syllogism, and he didn't respond in any way. He just carried on as if no one had proved him wrong (with of all things: a pointer to fifth edition Shadowrun). Because the truth is that Cyberzombie doesn't give a flying fuck about balance and only cares about his grognardy preferences. Any and all balance arguments he makes are totally in bad faith.
kzt wrote:But equally, how does a mage, rigger or SS handle NPC security forces that track him by hacking cameras then call in bogus 911 calls to get a SWAT team to hit him again and again?
Invisibility, super speed, and overwhelming fire power? How does anyone survive when the enemy knows where you live? Mostly by being able to fight off attackers long enough to go somewhere else and go to ground. To be honest, compared to ritual sorcery or GPS bombs, dropping a dime on the cops is one of the least effective ways of assassinating an enemy in a known location.
Lago wrote:The other reason why I don't like mundane protagonists for cyberpunk is because the Vanilla Action Hero/unfazed everyman who rises to the challenge concept for these settings has been done to fucking death.
This is actually where I will draw the line to defend grognardy preferences. Arguing that things shouldn't be done because they are cliche is rather missing the point of a cooperative storytelling game. Things are cliche because a lot of people want them in the story. You are literally pulling the hipster card and saying that you want things out of the game because too many people want them in the game. You should ruminate on how dumb that is.

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Post by Mask_De_H »

Lago, we know and we don't care. Have your coming to Jesus moment somewhere else.

Anyway, I am intrigued by the idea of the stars already being right and magic just being something you can do. Given some of the stuff we've come up with off of D&D materials, there could be a very interesting post-scarcity environment with both alchemy and 3D printers around. Hell, the cyberpunk dystopia could come from wage mages being the means of production and a large group of the now-irrelevant workforce turning to petty crime and/or kept sedate and impotent with Trid Phantasms.
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Chamomile wrote: See, it's because K's belief in leaving generation of individual monsters to GMs makes him Chaotic, whereas Frank's belief in the easier usability of monsters pre-generated by game designers makes him Lawful, and clearly these philosophies are so irreconcilable as to be best represented as fundamentally opposed metaphysical forces.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

FrankTrollman wrote: This is actually where I will draw the line to defend grognardy preferences. Arguing that things shouldn't be done because they are cliche is rather missing the point of a cooperative storytelling game. Things are cliche because a lot of people want them in the story. You are literally pulling the hipster card and saying that you want things out of the game because too many people want them in the game. You should ruminate on how dumb that is.

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I have no problems with cliches. They're great for worldbuilding. However, I have a problem with that specific cliche. We all know the problems associated with mundane heroes -- the Captain Hobo problem (which really stands out in cyberpunk), the +30 Hide < Invisibility problem, GMs and players special pleading in-game and out-game rules in order for things to be more 'realistic', the problem where it's easier to thoughtlessly slot in Batou or Spike Spiegel than Mokoto or Harry Dresden, and so on.

What's more, Cyberpunk and Post-Cyberpunk (and especially Shadowrun's interpretation thereof) have enough phlebtonium'd archetypes in the game such if you're doing anything above Spider Jerusalem level you can easily come up with several distinct parties that can tell Johnny Mnemonic to go fuck himself.

So, given its problematic history and the wealth of source material that can fill in the games, why not just plain get rid of this archetype?
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by OgreBattle »

FrankTrollman wrote:
Now personally, I don't know that a cyborg ninja or adept ninja even conceptually has a super saiyan transformation available to them without going out of archetype and becoming a Hacker, Face, conjurer, or Rigger.
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Post by Korwin »

FrankTrollman wrote:in SR5, Riggers can't hack and also laugh openly at Hackers. The Rigger's equipment redundancy by itself leaves the Hacker a sorry loser in that system. The Rigger doesn't even have a Sleaze stat and cannot engage in most hacking actions, but it doesn't fucking matter because the hacking in that system isn't good enough for the Rigger to give a shit. The syllogism is empirically false, because there exists a demonstrable case in which P & ~Q.

Even if we made Hacking sufficiently good that the Hacker had the advantage in a Hacker vs. Rigger confrontation, that still wouldn't be enough to conclude that a Hacker was even worth serious consideration as a team member. You'd have to compare how the Hacker did against all the other matchups, including matchups against opposition that is restricted to NPC security forces like "a kennel full of hell hounds" and such.

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Dont understand this argument. We are in agreement that SR5 has bad rules, especially the matrix rules. Correct?
So, how is this an argument we should keep both as seperate archetypes?

How did you prove Cyberzombie (with SR5!) wrong? [Quote="FrankTrollmann]
He just carried on as if no one had proved him wrong (with of all things: a pointer to fifth edition Shadowrun). [/quote]
Yes the decker should be able to do something against non riggers.
But at the moment I get an - decker should hack brains, not machines - vibe from you.
Totally non intuitive.
Red_Rob wrote: I mean, I'm pretty sure the Mayans had a prophecy about what would happen if Frank and PL ever agreed on something. PL will argue with Frank that the sky is blue or grass is green, so when they both separately piss on your idea that is definitely something to think about.
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Post by Almaz »

Cyberzombie wrote:More or less in Shadowrun, your characters are mortal.
What's hilarious is he's posting stuff like this from the name Cyberzombie, which is pretty much the Shadowrun answer to "what if you load 6.0 Essence of cyberware on a person instead of 5.9?!" In a game which features giant cybered-up fantasy creatures who pretty much exist to take hits from anti-materiel weapons. And you can play one! Troll samurai are a thing! I can't exactly be arsed to look up the damage codes and calculate odds of survival, but I've seen trolls with minimal cyber walk away from taking a grenade point blank with the harshest interpretation I could offer of the "chunky salsa" rules. And it wasn't even some statistically bullshit roll, it was just "oh, well, that's a lot of Body."

I mean, they're not exactly doing so unfazed, but the lack of self-awareness in posting that is entertaining!
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Post by Username17 »

Korwin wrote:Dont understand this argument.
Cyberzombie's argument was:
Cyberzombie wrote:If riggers can't hack, then they'd end up losing badly to a hacker, who basically crashes their drone control interface so they can't issue commands, then spoofs a bunch of commands to send the drones to kill each other, run full speed into walls or turn on the rigger and his team and blow them away.

You'd want to pass on the metal gear if you can't count on the thing not to shoot you in the back.
Highlighted the brackets of the syllogisms. These are two arguments in the form of "If P, Then Q." If you can show a single instance in which it is verifiably true that P is true and Q is false, then the syllogism is wrong and the argument is disproved.

Now in SR5, P is true. Riggers can't hack and hackers can (potentially) take control of their metal gears. However, it is also true that SR5 hackers are not much of a threat for a whole bunch of reasons and Riggers respond to their nominal hacking vulnerability by simply not giving a shit. The Rigger therefore doesn't lose badly to the Hacker despite being unable to meaningfully act in the Hacker's wheelhouse. So in SR5, Q is false. So SR5 is a demonstrable case of P & ~Q, so Cyberzombie's argument is formally disproven.

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Post by Cyberzombie »

FrankTrollman wrote: Now in SR5, P is true. Riggers can't hack and hackers can (potentially) take control of their metal gears. However, it is also true that SR5 hackers are not much of a threat for a whole bunch of reasons and Riggers respond to their nominal hacking vulnerability by simply not giving a shit. The Rigger therefore doesn't lose badly to the Hacker despite being unable to meaningfully act in the Hacker's wheelhouse. So in SR5, Q is false. So SR5 is a demonstrable case of P & ~Q, so Cyberzombie's argument is formally disproven.
First, the SR5 example is stupid, because in a successful hack attempt the first thing the hacker should be doing is telling the drone to stop listening to the rigger's commands, so rebooting the drones is an option a rigger shouldn't even have if his drone has been hacked, unless he's either a hacker himself or plans on physically pressing the reset button while the drone is trying to shoot him dead. Or the hacker could skip the drones entirely and just hack the riggers commlink. There isn't much the rigger can do to him if the rigger has no hacking skills. Hell, if the guy is running VR of any kind, he's vulnerable to just getting black hammered.

Second, we can all agree hacking doesn't work right now, but we're talking about fixing Shadowrun, not discussing how the current editions are broken. In fact, the one thing we can all agree on is that hacking doesn't work in any version of SR. Hence, the reason I want to change things. I'm speaking about how things should work, not necessarily how they do now. So even if SR5 has some bullshit rule that prevents a hacker from cutting off the rigger's drone control, I don't care, because we all agree that the SR5 model sucks.

I really hope you're not suggesting a world where hackers can hack brains but can't hack an AI controlled robot. You don't even have to worry about the opt-out problem with drones, because you need the wireless on to communicate with them.
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Post by duo31 »

FrankTrollman wrote:Now personally, I don't know that a cyborg ninja or adept ninja even conceptually has a super saiyan transformation available to them without going out of archetype and becoming a Hacker, Face, conjurer, or Rigger.
The Cyborg Ninja become a Techno-Lich. He has the core meat (brain?)that becomes his Phylactery and he switches bodies like a Lich at an All You Can Eat Mind Jar Buffet. (Either Cyberzombie or Cyborg)

The Adept Ninja becomes functionally Immortal like Wolverine or Roland, but the rules don't exist to support that.



Edit: On further thought, this is a bad comparison, since if a Sam, hides their brain (phylactery) in a hole, and still runs around with a cybernetic body, then they are now riggers or atman.

Cyborgs sill exist, so there is still a path to Super Saian, the CCU just needs an eject/escape pod for if things go sideways.
Last edited by duo31 on Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Nath »

FrankTrollman wrote:Every character needs to be able to contribute in basically three areas:
  • Legwork
  • Covert Action
  • Combat Action
This list helped me pinpoint the fundamental problem I have about the hacker archetype. Except for the grognards, the Shadowrun TTRPG is no authority to define what the genre archetypes are. People gather around the table with their own preconception of what these archetypes are, and why they want to play them. Because they were established by the existing fictions, K. Dick, Gibson, Masamune Shirow, whatever.

The fictional hacker archetype is defined as a character who works only with computers, while avoiding dealing with other people physically. The hacker is not solely defined by his hacking skill. His lack of physical involvement is an integral part of the archetype definition (for instance, Ghost in the Shell Puppetmaster(s) is a "hacker" archetype, while Motoko Kusanagi is a "cold-blooded killer" archetype with hacking skills).

The trope may occasionally be subverted, but it's just that: a subversion. When a hacker character overcomes his inability at social or physical encounters in a movie or a novel, it is an entire subplot that won't be resolved until the end. Story-wise, to make a hacker archetype effective in combat is like making a trickster archetype character trustful: sure, as a writer, you're free to do that, but you can hardly call it an archetype any longer.

The hacker archetype cannot be made into a TTRPG character class that contribute in all three areas of legwork, covert action and combat. The alternative is to introduce an actually different archetype that is able to crack his way into a secured computer network. They call it "hacker" but it is actually more of a "tech-head" archetype, who use either drones (encroaching on the rigger's part) or some mind-bending technology. It's just using the same name for two different type of characters, one of which speaks to the audience psyche, while the other is the actual viable chargen build.

I, for myself, think the tech-head is too broad as a character class (especially if you want to make rigger a separate character class). On the other hand, I think guns should not be subject to role protection for the street samurai. The street samurai is defined by his body augmentations, that allow him to use guns or blades, or his bare hands, to kill people. But everyone can have wield gun (including the mooks, which are an archetype onto themselves).

So if I was to revamp the system, I would modify skillsofts to make it a "hacker" character class ability, which in this case could be more aptly called "coder" or "computer wizz" (I admit it's barely narrower than the tech-head label). Low-rating skillsofts could remain available to anyone, but high-level skillsoft (as up as 6, or why not even 8 ?) that can rival with specialists' skills would only be available to such characters.
The breakup would be like, streetsams have body augmentation to increase their attributes, roll more dice and get things done, adepts have powers to increase both attributes and skills and roll more dice, mages have Magical attribute and skill they can roll instead of their other attributes and skills to get things done, riggers use Autopilot and Autosoft instead, and "hackers" have skillsofts to roll more dice. That is, a character that do things with 0 and 1, as close as it can be to the hacker archetype.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

duo31 wrote:The Cyborg Ninja become a Techno-Lich. He has the core meat (brain?)that becomes his Phylactery and he switches bodies like a Lich at an All You Can Eat Mind Jar Buffet. (Either Cyberzombie or Cyborg)

The Adept Ninja becomes functionally Immortal like Wolverine or Roland, but the rules don't exist to support that.
Frankly, I think that the Cyborg Ninja should just start 'evolving' in crazy and scary ways like they were a Borg that got hit with every single Resident Evil virus at once. That way they don't just get hit with the obvious question of 'why don't you just have the rigger hook up another cyborg ninja or five?'

The Adept Ninja can just become a Fist of the North Star character.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Lokathor »

I can't see any particular reason that an Adept shouldn't be able to go literal super sayan on things. As they level up, they can eventually soak tank shells and punch buildings over and even just fly probably. It's all magic after all, spells can power up to do those same sorts of things.

The Street Samurai is seemingly the only one left without a way they can power up into the supers tier without becoming some other type of character. A cyber-zombie that's just a brain in a robot body is pretty similar to a Rigger jumped into a robot body, after all. Except the rigger can jump into another robot if they get shot up, and the cyber-zombie can't.
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Post by Longes »

Lokathor wrote:I can't see any particular reason that an Adept shouldn't be able to go literal super sayan on things. As they level up, they can eventually soak tank shells and punch buildings over and even just fly probably. It's all magic after all, spells can power up to do those same sorts of things.

The Street Samurai is seemingly the only one left without a way they can power up into the supers tier without becoming some other type of character. A cyber-zombie that's just a brain in a robot body is pretty similar to a Rigger jumped into a robot body, after all. Except the rigger can jump into another robot if they get shot up, and the cyber-zombie can't.
Part of the reason is because "Street Samurai" isn't really an archetype, the same way "Adept" isn't an archetype. You can a social adept or a combat adept, and you can be a social cyborg (well, sorta. False Front and stuff are crazy expensive) or a combat cyborg. I guess as a muggle you have to go for the breadth of skills, since you lack the ability to super specialize like magical people can. I guess another option would be a modular structure for implants, so you can set Tailored Pheromones while doing legwork, and orthoskin when going to war.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Lokathar wrote:The Street Samurai is seemingly the only one left without a way they can power up into the supers tier without becoming some other type of character. A cyber-zombie that's just a brain in a robot body is pretty similar to a Rigger jumped into a robot body, after all. Except the rigger can jump into another robot if they get shot up, and the cyber-zombie can't.
Well, the whole 'rigger by another name' assumption really only holds if you think of the mid-level Street Samurai as just a platform to mix-and-match bodyparts from a workshop. If after a certain point Street Samurai upgrades worked like the Borg or like Guyver or like Resident Evil super-zombies in which they were not specifically replicable, only generally replicable then it avoids the whole 'rigger in one of their drones' problem. If turning into RE's Nemesis or NG2's Four Devas isn't something you can reliably replicate in a lab then you have a reason for the Street Samurai to be on the team even when the rigger has like six or seven Iron Man drones.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Lokathor
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Post by Lokathor »

What do you mean "Worked like the Borg"? This is the second time you've said that. To me, the biggest thing about The Borg is that they are a collective consciousness with hordes of completely replaceable bio-drone warriors. They are the Star Trek version of a Rigger if ever there was.

So are you saying that a street sam should be able to get 'ware that provides super powers instead of just stat boosts? Essentially the same as an adept should be able to get adept powers that give super powers?

(PS: Pretend that I've never played Resident Evil while giving your explanation)
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Post by Username17 »

Lokathor wrote:I can't see any particular reason that an Adept shouldn't be able to go literal super sayan on things. As they level up, they can eventually soak tank shells and punch buildings over and even just fly probably. It's all magic after all, spells can power up to do those same sorts of things.
Structurally, there isn't any particular reason to think they couldn't. However, in the fiction, no Adept can do that, and by the rules you can't do that. You would be within the guidelines of what magic can do to change that, but in neither fluff nor rules is any Adept able to really become a genuine superhero. I don't have any problem with an Adept who could fly and bounce bullets off his chest, it just happens to not be a thing that Shadowrun has even made baby steps towards supporting.

The Street Samurai is seemingly the only one left without a way they can power up into the supers tier without becoming some other type of character. A cyber-zombie that's just a brain in a robot body is pretty similar to a Rigger jumped into a robot body, after all. Except the rigger can jump into another robot if they get shot up, and the cyber-zombie can't.
Honestly, if high end cyborgs were actual brains in jars that got transferred from robot body to robot body, I think a lot of players would be OK with that. If your late game apotheosis was to become a super hacker like The Major, I think a lot of people would be OK with that. And if your late game apotheosis was to become a tailored pheromones super-face, I think a lot of people would be OK with that too. Indeed, I don't actually think there's anything specifically wrong with simply telling Street Samurai that if they want to go Super Saiyan, they have to do it as a Rigger, Hacker, or Face. There just needs to be clearly marked paths to get from being a Street Samurai to high end advancement as one of those other things.
Nath wrote:This list helped me pinpoint the fundamental problem I have about the hacker archetype. Except for the grognards, the Shadowrun TTRPG is no authority to define what the genre archetypes are. People gather around the table with their own preconception of what these archetypes are, and why they want to play them. Because they were established by the existing fictions, K. Dick, Gibson, Masamune Shirow, whatever.

The fictional hacker archetype is defined as a character who works only with computers, while avoiding dealing with other people physically. The hacker is not solely defined by his hacking skill. His lack of physical involvement is an integral part of the archetype definition (for instance, Ghost in the Shell Puppetmaster(s) is a "hacker" archetype, while Motoko Kusanagi is a "cold-blooded killer" archetype with hacking skills).
When considering how to put Hackers into a game, you have to consider more than just people's archetypal expectations. Lets consider the Hacker the same way we would the Sorcerer. People envision the sorcerer mucking about with spell books and talismans, chanting chants, burning effigies, and blinding the local newt population. And he does do that stuff, but that's only ritual sorcery. For action scenes, the sorcerer needs something faster that "just happens." Because he's in a world with fucking bullets and helicopters and televisions and shit and it is not fucking acceptable to spend twenty minutes or even half a minute fucking around with reagents and recitations.

And people have, grudgingly in some cases, accepted this. The Sorcerers of Shadowrun should probably use ritual sorcery more than they do, but people are basically OK with the fact that mages in combat scenes look more like the Order of the Phoenix throwing stupefies around than like any actual traditional system of magic.

So it is with Hackers. Yes, Hackers should spend a certain amount of time in their basement with their sweet computer console using backdoors and stolen passwords and shit doing "ritual hacking," but when the shit hits the fan and the bullets start flying they need "spontaneous hacking" effects that are much faster and more direct.

One thing that I think Shadowrun could benefit from is to have people who can do rituals (whether they be magic rituals like ritual sorcery or enchanting, or tech rituals like remote hacking or biotech) but can't use those things in combat. I think there is a lot of legs to characters who can put a voodoo curse on someone or do computer hacking legwork but in actual firefights have to use a sub machine gun. Still, the game also benefits from characters who are Sorcerers and Hackers all the time. And that requires spells that you can cast in a split second. And it also requires "hacks" that you can do on people across the street from you in the same time frame.

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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Lokathar wrote:What do you mean "Worked like the Borg"? This is the second time you've said that. To me, the biggest thing about The Borg is that they are a collective consciousness with hordes of completely replaceable bio-drone warriors. They are the Star Trek version of a Rigger if ever there was.

So are you saying that a street sam should be able to get 'ware that provides super powers instead of just stat boosts? Essentially the same as an adept should be able to get adept powers that give super powers?

(PS: Pretend that I've never played Resident Evil while giving your explanation)
Borg Evolution: ST Borgs have the power to adapt to adversarial stimuli. For example, if you shoot them or their shit with an exotic laser gun, the first through shots go through and then suddenly don't work because their personal forcefield 'adapts' to it. If this happens enough times, the adapting agent is pretty noticeably superior to what they started out with. If you're familiar with the Doomsday character from the comic books, it works like this.

Resident Evil Superzombies: Or, hell, pretty much any medium that uses superzombies. When certain people are exposed to whatever mutagenic agent exists in a setting, some people become run-of-the-mill mook zombies while other people transform into slavering abominations with weird-ass special abilities and weaknesses. It can work like Left for Dead in which superzombies (special infected) are a tiny proportion of the transmorgifying subjects or like House of the Dead where the top-tier superzombies are wildly varying and unique. The point is that whether or not you get a superzombie and what kind of superzombie you get is random.

The point is that whichever explanation you use, if you make it so that it's impossible or at least prohibitive for even a megacorp to make their super-soldier an assembly-line project -- unlike with rigger vehicles or cyber/bioware -- then Street Samurai have an advancement avenue that don't require them to become riggers or bitches of riggers. You can flavor it so that the advancement is mostly 'mechanical' using bullshit science since like the Borg, you can steadily warp into a twisted hulk of meat like a superzombie, or even appear mostly the same as before like a post-Sephiroth jRPG final boss.
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Lokathor »

But they lose individual drones all the time. Like the shot that the collective adapts to blows up one drone and then the next drone is immune to that kind of shot. The Street Samurai isn't playing as the collective, they're playing as just one guy. So if they get shot and die, then they're just dead.

And in the case of the "super-zombies" route, what is it that's powering up the samurai that's both non-magical and also non-duplicable by a megacorp? You could totally go with "you get powers from this serum, but only if you have an edge score", I guess. Or something?
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