The Gaming Den Forum Index The Gaming Den
Welcome to the Gaming Den.
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Google
 Search WWW   Search tgdmb.com 
Feat Blocks

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Gaming Den Forum Index -> It's My Own Invention...
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Lago_AM3P
Duke


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 1276

PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 1:04 am    Post subject: Feat Blocks Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Frank probably hit the nail right on the head with Final Fantasy d20 feats. There is absolutely no reason why a feat should give you one and only one benefit--hell, there's a feat in the core PHB that gives two rather important benefits in one.

Instead of making singular feats super-powerful, I'd rather have feats be a package of smaller abilities. Power attack, even the very powerful 3.5E version, should and does not define a character by having this feat. But a 'feat' that was actually a package of 3.0E power attack, cleave, improved bull rush, and improved sunder would, as would a 'feat' that was a package of combat expertise, combat reflexes, spring attack, and weapon finesse.

Wizards should get a metamagic feat package of extend spell, quicken spell, silent spell, and still spell. Rogues should get a feat package of skill mastery, improved evasion, opportunist, and crippling strike. Soforth.

It'd sure as hell make balancing things against primary spellcasters easier. If someone can tell me what combination of feats a barbarian/fighter/ranger/pious templar/Hammer of Mordadain is supposed to have that makes him competitive against a wizard, under the current system, then I'll be damn surprised.

People don't want a single feat to be as good as a package of three 7th level spells, so we'll give them a package of feats that are as good as 5 6th level spells. So says I.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
FrankTrollman
Serious Badass


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 27292

PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 9:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Feat Blocks Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
If someone can tell me what combination of feats a barbarian/fighter/ranger/pious templar/Hammer of Mordadain is supposed to have that makes him competitive against a wizard, under the current system, then I'll be damn surprised.


If you're talking Hammers of Moradin, you're talking 3.5, where ironically it's easier than ever to compete with the Wizard - provided the Wizard didn't take Evocation as a barred school.

DCs are lower, and caster levels are higher. It's harder for the Wizard to buff the party, and easier for the wizard to buff himself.

So really, in order to compete against "the wizard" you just have to find a wizard who is willing to compete on anyone else's terms - in which case the 3.5 Wizard is 10 pounds of suck in a five pound bag.

If that's your situation, all you really have to do is be in a position where you do more damage than Polar Ray by 15th level. That's not hard, because my grandmother does more damage than Polar Ray. The Barbarian really just has to take a level of Exotic Weapon Master and take the thing where you get double strength bonus when fighting two handed with a dwarven war axe. Then you just walk around doing more damage than any wizard could ever dream of.

Unless of course the wizard is willing to combine Polymorph and teleport ambushes, of course, in which case there is nothing whatever that any fighter type in any build can take to keep up. And you'll probably notice that I didn't even mention a collection of feats, because feats suck. The only meaningful combos in there are class features, because class features are the only things that are currently allowed to not suck my butt.

Quote:
People don't want a single feat to be as good as a package of three 7th level spells, so we'll give them a package of feats that are as good as 5 6th level spells.

I don't pretend to understand the logic of people not wanting that, but if feats gave 5 separate abilities they might be able to be balanced while still giving each individual benefit small enough that people were basically OK with it.

-Frank
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lago_AM3P
Duke


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 1276

PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 1:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Feat Blocks Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Spring Attack- As per the PHB.

Enhanced Mobility- You do not draw AoOs from spellcasting, moving, or performing move-equivalent actions such as drinking potions, standing up from prone, etc.

Sprint- When taking the run action, you can run twice your normal run distance. Unlike most multiplication in D&D, this is multiplied last and separate (for example, a barbarian with a magical item that doubles his run speed finds his run speed quadrupled by this feat, not tripled). You also gain a bonus equal to your character level on constitution checks to keep running.

Pounce- As per the MM.

Slip Step- You may move through an opponent's space without making a tumble check. This ability does not work on creatures where it would be impossible to move through in the first place.

Enhanced Acrobatics- In lieu of a full round's worth of actions, you may perform three move-equivalent actions.

And this still isn't good enough as limited wish. Ah, well.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
FrankTrollman
Serious Badass


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 27292

PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 3:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Feat Blocks Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

What is all that supposed to do together? Pounce only works on a charge action, Spring Attack only works on a Standard Action attack. Neither can be done with a Move Action.

So you have the choice of either moving 3 times, or moving twice in a straight line and taking a full attack, or taking part of a single move, making a single attack, and then making the rest of your single move - and any of this movement can be through an opponent's square unless you are attempting to get the full attack in which case it can't (thanks to the 3.5 draconian charge rules).

I suppose all of that together could be a feat - it's sufficiently non-stacking that noone in their right mind could have a problem with it (except maybe for pounce, but then the charge rules are all screwed up anyway).

-Frank
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RandomCasualty
Prince


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 3511

PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Feat Blocks Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I really don't see the point of comparing feats to spells. For one they're so different, you don't get much out of the comparison.

Divine power is a 4th level spell, it takes you an action to use it. It only lasts for 1 combat. Next it takes a spell slot of a given level. I just don't see how you compare power attack to that, or weapon focus, or anything else for that matter.

It really is apples and oranges. And you really can't balance them on a case by case basis. There's no way I can make weapon spec balanced by fireball, because the mechanics are totally different.

The best judge for a feat is always the "would I take this feat?" test. If the answer is that you wouldn't want it, then you power up the feat. If the answer is that it's a must take, then you power it down.

Really, trying to compare feats and spells and try to achieve some equivalency is like trying to figure out how many kilograms there are in a meter. It just doesn't make any sense.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
FrankTrollman
Serious Badass


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 27292

PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Feat Blocks Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
Divine power is a 4th level spell, it takes you an action to use it. It only lasts for 1 combat. Next it takes a spell slot of a given level. I just don't see how you compare power attack to that, or weapon focus, or anything else for that matter.


Because the action doesn't have to take place in the actual combat, it can take place at some other time. And with the proper equipment or abilities that Divine Power can last all day anyhow.

Feats take actions to use, sometimes it's a free action, sometimes it's not. Chink in the Armor, for instance, lets you take an action to give you a bonus to-hit on your next attack. Sounds a lot like True Strike, doesn't it? So why does it suck so much more butt?

Divine Power can be used like Chink in the Armor, but it gives a bonus to all of your actions for the entire combat instead of just one attack. And if you have a quickening rod or a persistence rod, or any of a number of abilties, the Divine Power has simply the same usage as Iron Will - it's just on whenever you happen to need or want it.

---

I sincerely don't understand why you think that feats and spells are so different as to not be comparable, and that feat-based defenses would make feat-based characters obsolete. I mean, it really seems like you need to take a step back and look at feats from a purely mechanistic point of view.

It's just an ability that gives a bonus and has a triggering condition. That's it. This thing where you are holding feats to a radically different standard than other abilties has got to fvcking stop if we are to have meaningful conversations.

-Frank
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RandomCasualty
Prince


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 3511

PostPosted: Fri Jul 09, 2004 11:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Feat Blocks Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

If you have feats that take actions to use and do certain stuff without a save, then yeah maybe you can compare them to spells. But even this is a slippery slope, because then you're constantly wondering what level of spell to compare them to. And this is a vast minority of feats, and you can't do it for all feats, so what's the point? I mean no spell is like power attack, or cleave, or mobility or karmic strike. And for a reference point to exist it has to be universal. Simply having one or two feats, crappy feats at that, that can be compared to spells doesn't make a good balance mechanism.

You want a balance mechanism you can apply to all feats. And the best way to do that is to ask the "would you take this feat?" question, because that's what balance in this case is all about. You want stuff people are going to be willing to take, but aren't must take feats either.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lago_AM3P
Duke


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 1276

PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Feat Blocks Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
I suppose all of that together could be a feat - it's sufficiently non-stacking that noone in their right mind could have a problem with it (except maybe for pounce, but then the charge rules are all screwed up anyway).


It's not supposed to be anything that combines together, unlike elusive target. It's just to be a collection of ability blocks that make one character noticably faster and more mobile than his peers.

This is actually what I think feats should do, even if that entire collection is barely worth 3.5E power attack. They should be character-defining, much like a wizard getting access to fireball, cloudkill, and web and using them in concert to roast and poison trapped enemies alive defines him as an evil trap-setting bastard. Only the wizard's definition of character is much easier to come by.

This is why I only play clerics and wizards anymore, even if I come across an opportunity to play something with just as much raw power (exotic weapon master / frenzied berserker); a cleric can define himself as an extremely accomplished warrior with a totally kick-ass sword with just three spells (divine power, divine favor, and greater magic weapon), and then have the rest of his spells enhancing his character HOWEVER HE WANTS. He can take church inquisitor levels and slap on the knowledge domain and totally be fricking Sherlock Holmes. You have a character more complex than a fighter can ever hope to be, and he still hasn't burned through most of his character-defining spells!


Taking 12 levels of fighter just so you can define your fighter as tricksy (by taking combat expertise, spring attack, weapon finesse, improved disarm) is fuggin' retarded, even if we get past the issue that fighters can't contribute to the party past a certain level. You should be able to define your fighter as tricksy and rogues by character level ONE, which is not happening when your fighter is stuck with the totally unimpressive feats of dodge and mobility and doesn't even get to weave through combat.

I don't support any nerfing at all of spells until we fix feats, first. I've already seen the extent to which spells can flesh out a character, and I am extremely unimpressed by nerfers attempts to inflict their stupid-ass dystopian vision of a 5th level barbarians almost being totally the same as every other fucking 5th level barbarian in the game.

Fuck that shit.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
FrankTrollman
Serious Badass


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 27292

PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Feat Blocks Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List


Random wrote:
I mean no spell is like power attack, or cleave, or mobility or karmic strike.


Uh... so fireshield is not like Karmic Strike? That stupid thing that lets you do short distance dimension doors as a MEA isn't like Mobility? For that matter, polymorph is not like Power Attack?

In what way? I mean, they are substantially superior, but other than that, how are they different?

Lago wrote:

I don't support any nerfing at all of spells until we fix feats, first. I've already seen the extent to which spells can flesh out a character, and I am extremely unimpressed by nerfers attempts to inflict their stupid-ass dystopian vision of a 5th level barbarians almost being totally the same as every other fvcking 5th level barbarian in the game.


Pretty much. Right now spellcasters have character schticks and a power level. Disregarding infinite power loops like Simulacrum, that power level is generally fairly comprehensible.

Fighters have a much lower power level and are not really allowed character schticks. So trying to set everyone's power level to the current Fighter is pointless - if we were to actually do that noone would have a character schtick and we'd all be sad.

-Frank
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Lago_AM3P
Duke


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 1276

PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 9:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Feat Blocks Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
You want a balance mechanism you can apply to all feats. And the best way to do that is to ask the "would you take this feat?" question, because that's what balance in this case is all about. You want stuff people are going to be willing to take, but aren't must take feats either.


I'm actually very surprised at people's resistance to compare spells to feats. It's actually one of the easiest design choices to do in the game.

We KNOW the character-defining and plot-enhancing spells that people cast at each level, we know how they change the character of the campaign, and we also know how fast they gain these spells.

It's not all that hard, either. Here's how it'd look like:

Character level 1-2- Spellcasters gain the ability to bring their friends back from the brink of death, stop multiple enemies in their tracks, identify hidden powers of equipment, and enhance their movement modes.

Character level 3-4: Spellcasters gain all of the above, but stronger, and also gain the ability to change various physical aspects, spells related to subterfuge, ways to resist energy, and ways to block the paths of their enemies.

Character level 4-5: In addition to all of the above, spellcasters gain the ability to communicate with a lot of creatures, take down magical defenses, remove the status afflictions of their friends, and frickin' fly.

What is so frickin' hard about making feats match that? The mere variety of spells reaches over 100 pages in the player's handbook and tends to be one of the largest sections in splatbooks, so I'm not buying any argument that this would be complicated.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RandomCasualty
Prince


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 3511

PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Feat Blocks Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Lago_AM3P wrote:

I don't support any nerfing at all of spells until we fix feats, first. I've already seen the extent to which spells can flesh out a character, and I am extremely unimpressed by nerfers attempts to inflict their stupid-ass dystopian vision of a 5th level barbarians almost being totally the same as every other fvcking 5th level barbarian in the game.


I'm just the opposite, I say you balance everything internally first before you start, especially if you're going to make statements like "a feat should be equal to three level 6 spells" If spells aren't balanced you don't even know wtf a level 6 really is, or what it's supposed to do. Is it wind walk, mass inflict moderate wounds, heal, harm, antimagic field, summon mosnter VI, greater heroism or what?

Until you balance the spell list for each level you have no clue what power level you're talking about when you say "6th level spell", so trying to set a feat equal to X number of spells is really a pointless exercise.

Especially when you've got spells out there like polymorph which screw with the system in other ways, like making physical based race LA totally useless after a certain level. Spells like that need to go, regardless of what you do to feats. Using them as a balance points for feats only means you screw up the system even more. Teleport ambushes fall in this catagory too. They just can't exist.

Buff spells that last all day just can't and shouldn't exist at all. It's why clerics and druids own so much, because they don't pay anything for those buffs, it's more like a class ability than a spell.

Fixing buff spells and polymorph effects should be the very first thing you do, because you're weighing everything against casters, especially clerics and druids. You want to set your scale to zero before you actually start weighing anything on it. Otherwise any data you collect is going to be useless.

Quote:

Uh... so fireshield is not like Karmic Strike? That stupid thing that lets you do short distance dimension doors as a MEA isn't like Mobility? For that matter, polymorph is not like Power Attack?

In what way? I mean, they are substantially superior, but other than that, how are they different?

No, not at all actually. Fireshield doesnt' scale based on the damage you do, it's just a fixed amount and a pretty low one at that. Karmic strike on the other hand is based on the damage you yourself can do. your weapon spec and weapon focus feats help your karmic strike feat, but nothing is going to help your fireshield aside from maximizing it or something, but that requires additional cost.

Polymorph is just a broken concept. It's a free stat increase for nothing. Power attack, you lose accuracy for damage.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
FrankTrollman
Serious Badass


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 27292

PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 11:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Feat Blocks Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
Buff spells that last all day just can't and shouldn't exist at all.


So Weapon Focus should not exist? That's pretty confusing. A Buff that lasts all damn day is actually the easiest to balance thing in the whole world. It's just trading a spell slot for a bonus. It's like if you didn't have a spell slot, and had a bonus instead.

It's like your character class came with a class feature "Your skin is totally iron-like and shiny" or whatever. It can be balanced in those terms, it's pretty easy to deal with.

---

What's really hard is a Buff with any duration at all that is shorter than that. See, a buff that lasts "a minute" is just like a class feature if you only have one fight a day and it begins with your party jumping them.

But it's much weaker if you have one fight per day and they are ambushing you - because then its activation costs you an entire round of combat and isn't even up for the first volley of arrows. And it's even weaker than that if you happen to have two combats in a day or more - there are combats you are in where the ability doesn't do anything. How ass is that?

--

All-day buffs are fine, they are just a different special effect for being tougher. There's no particular difference between having mindblank and a class feature that makes you unlocatable with divinations and immune to mind influencing effects - it's just a special effect that you have to conduct a neurotic ritual every morning or the gods will find you.

Short duration buffs are inherently broken.

-Frank
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RandomCasualty
Prince


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 3511

PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 4:38 am    Post subject: Re: Feat Blocks Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:
A Buff that lasts all damn day is actually the easiest to balance thing in the whole world. It's just trading a spell slot for a bonus. It's like if you didn't have a spell slot, and had a bonus instead.

Yeah, until you consider that spell slots depreciate as you gain levels. Paying a 3rd level slot as a 5th level wizard is a pretty high cost to you. Paying it as a 17th level is nothing. You're paying something that is nearly worthless to you now for a buff. And with every all day buff you have that stacks you only compound the problem. It's beacuse of that concept that clerics are so uber. Pay nothing, turn a normal sword into a +5 sword. Pay nothing, cast spikes and gain a +10 to damage.

Quote:

It's like your character class came with a class feature "Your skin is totally iron-like and shiny" or whatever. It can be balanced in those terms, it's pretty easy to deal with.

Yeah, other than the fact that you can have any number of them. A class feature is fixed and set, but your wizard can know an infinite number of all day buffs. And all of them might be able to be on at once.

Quote:

But it's much weaker if you have one fight per day and they are ambushing you - because then its activation costs you an entire round of combat and isn't even up for the first volley of arrows. And it's even weaker than that if you happen to have two combats in a day or more - there are combats you are in where the ability doesn't do anything. How ass is that?

It's situational balance, which is a good thing. Short term buffs are better if you gain surprise, that's ok. Sneak attack is like that too.

To balance spells, one spell of a given level has to be inferior to another of a given level at somethings and superior at others. Saying "well if we get surprised, divine power won't be as good as flame strike" is a good thing, it adds more tactics to the game and more choices. All day buffs on the other hand are simply a matter of "well lets see I want to melee people, so I'll cast spikes at the beginning of the day no matter what."

That's lame.

Quote:
All-day buffs are fine, they are just a different special effect for being tougher. There's no particular difference between having mindblank and a class feature that makes you unlocatable with divinations and immune to mind influencing effects - it's just a special effect that you have to conduct a neurotic ritual every morning or the gods will find you.

Ya there's a huge difference. Namely that you can swap out that mindblank for any number of other buffs or a spell, or whatever. And you have no idea what new buffs are going to get published in future books that you'll be able to swap it out for.

The only meaningful cost for a buff spell is the action you spend casting it. Spell slots value are entirely based on your level, and so we have to consider that they are eventually going to have no value at all when a 3rd level slot just doesnt' mean anything.

I dont' really have a problem with a cleric being as good a fighter as a fighter in an ambush situation, because that should be a minority of the time, especially given that clerics wear heavy armor. So if he wants to try hiding in the shadows lying in wait, then let him. As a DM you really don't care if he does that, the only thing you're concerned about is teleport ambush.

Well, teleport ambush is another aspect of the game that just has to be removed, because you just can't balance that. No ability can compensate for it. It just can't happen at all. In fact, you don't even really need teleportation at all in the game either.

No Frank, all day buffs are impossible to balance, because their only cost isn't a cost at all at high levels.

The only way you can possibly allow them is a mechanic like "pay one slot of the highest level of spells you can cast to gain the following class feature for today."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
FrankTrollman
Serious Badass


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 27292

PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 3:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Feat Blocks Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
Yeah, until you consider that spell slots depreciate as you gain levels.


What do you mean "until"?

Wizards get to use their top spells to advance the plot and act in combat, and the rest of their spells are converted into buffs. Thus they get some use out of all of their character levels.

Shouldn't they get use out of all of their character levels? And don't start with the "they got use out of their levels by allowing them to qualify for levels that actually matter" rant, because that's crap.

If you are a 16th level character, that means that you have 16 different levels, and they should all matter. That means that the paradigm of all-day buffs is fine.

-Frank
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RandomCasualty
Prince


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 3511

PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:43 am    Post subject: Re: Feat Blocks Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:

Shouldn't they get use out of all of their character levels? And don't start with the "they got use out of their levels by allowing them to qualify for levels that actually matter" rant, because that's crap.


It's not crap, it's the entire caster paradigm. Caster's abilities don't stack on top of each other. It doesn't matter how many lightning bolts you have, you don't burn them all in the same round. In any given situation you're allowed to choose only a few of your total abilities. Having 10 lightning bolts at ready only means you have more ammo, it doesnt' make your existing bolts any stronger.

And like it or not, lower level spells do and should become obsolete. Magic missiles aren't supposed to kill trolls in one round, fireballs aren't supposed to beat ancient white dragons and so on.

All day buffs break the paradigm because if you allow them, there's no reason not to use them. Imagine trading in some of your garbage slots for real bonuses? Only a moron wouldn't make that trade.

And this essentially brings your full spell arsenal to bear in one battle, because by having spells active beforehand, you are actually gaining the beneift of beinga ble to cast more spells each round. As we saw with 3.0 haste, that wasn't a good thing. Also since buffs never become obsolete, having them last all day makes low level slots too good.

With every all day buff you hand out, you are essentially giving out a low level spell that can be cast as a free action an infinite number of times that takes up one spell slot. Seriously... they're way broke.

Remember 3.0 and how everyone walked around with empowered fox's cunnings and bull's strength instead of using the magic items? Because the slots were so much cheaper.

If you want all day buffs, they gotta suck and suck hard... suck to the point where no one would use them. Like a +1 enhancement bonus or even a half a bonus. And they can't stack with each other at all.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Oberoni
Knight


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 386

PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:12 am    Post subject: Re: Feat Blocks Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Soooo, you're proposing that low-level slots should be useless, or what? Help me out here.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RandomCasualty
Prince


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 3511

PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:25 am    Post subject: Re: Feat Blocks Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Oberoni wrote:
Soooo, you're proposing that low-level slots should be useless, or what? Help me out here.


Basically yeah.

When you're a fighter and you have a normal dagger, a masterwork longsword, and a +5 longsword, you dont' ask the DM to make your normal dagger do something extra beyond what your +5 weapon does. You just accept that you've outgrown it and that you don't really need it anymore.

Occasionally you may use it for noncombat tasks, but in combat, it shouldn't really be doing anything, at least not to supplement your normal attacks. It's a backup and that's it.

Basically your 2nd level spells are stuff like knock, detect thoughts, see inviisiblity, etc. There are plenty of stuff they can do, just not grant meaningful bonuses in high level combats.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
FrankTrollman
Serious Badass


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 27292

PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Feat Blocks Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
When you're a fighter and you have a normal dagger, a masterwork longsword, and a +5 longsword, you dont' ask the DM to make your normal dagger do something extra beyond what your +5 weapon does. You just accept that you've outgrown it and that you don't really need it anymore.


But the dagger isn't a class feature. Weapon Focus is. And while Weapon focus sucks ass, it still adds to your character at higher level. Heck, you can take that masterwork longsword and sell it towards getting a magic shield. Or whatever.

The previous magic items you used aren't even part of your character, only the class features are. The stuff like Base Attack Bonus, Rage, and Bonus Feats. And the paradigm is that all of those things accumulate and add.

So what's the fvcking problem with wizards getting to use their spell slots - their only class features - from previous levels and using them for something which accumulates and adds?

-Frank
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RandomCasualty
Prince


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 3511

PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Feat Blocks Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:

So what's the fvcking problem with wizards getting to use their spell slots - their only class features - from previous levels and using them for something which accumulates and adds?


Then you'd have to nerf each individual spell, and rewrite the whole spell system, because it isn't designed for that. It isn't designed for spells like a 1st level "lightning bolt enhancer" that lasts all day and adds a +1d6 to each lightning spell you cast. Because then you just create tons of those lightning enhancers and soon you're throwing 50 dice lightning bolts.

Spells aren't supposed to support each other, like this. Having the ability to focus all your energy into one area is bad... really bad, and that's what all day buffs let you do. They let you concentrate all or a majority of your slots into doing something, usually totally ripping off another class paradigm like the fighter.

And everytime a new book comes out, you cringe, because you have no idea what new buff is going to be produced in the new book, and if they last all day, there's no way to prevent this constant power creep. Doesn't matter how powerful your fighters are, under this paradigm clerics will always end up topping them eventually, because they get stronger with every book that is produced.

Buffs that last all day need to be a straight class feature. It's the only way to balance them. Because you simply can't allow new books to produce more of them, and you can't allow the caster to choose how many of them he wants from day to day. It's a losing proposition.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
FrankTrollman
Serious Badass


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 27292

PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Feat Blocks Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
And everytime a new book comes out, you cringe, because you have no idea what new buff is going to be produced in the new book, and if they last all day, there's no way to prevent this constant power creep.


Sure there is. You standardize the class so that they actually have enough all-day buffs to use all of their slots that they aren't using.

The only reason power creep even happens is because for some whacked out reason there are not enough all-day buffs, and people end up with useless spell slots. Then they have to wait for more buffs to be printed just so that their spell slots can mean something.

That and Andy Collins can't balance a wad of hamburger on a counter. But that's a different problem.

Quote:
Then you'd have to nerf each individual spell, and rewrite the whole spell system, because it isn't designed for that.


Having to rewrite the whole spell system simply does not suprise or bother me. I mean, the current spell system contains:

Awaken
Planar Binding
Polymorph (and friends)
Shapechange
Simulacrum
Shades

Having to rewrite the items/wealth system does not surprise or bother me. I mean, the current game system includes:

Fabricate
Plane shift
Imortal Player Characters

So raising the alarm because "you'd have to rewrite the (item pricing / spells) system" isn't much of an alarm. We know we have to rewrite those systems because the ones we currently have contain infinite power loops. So a rewrite is inevitable. The only question therefore, is what you would rewrite it into.

Now, if you can show me that something would require abandoning a genre trope of the high-magic fantasy genre which D&D is supposed to represent, then you've got something. But if all you can muster is the fact that you'd have to put a crate engine into a subsystem that we already know is nonfunctional - your argument lacks substance.

-Frank
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RandomCasualty
Prince


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 3511

PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Feat Blocks Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:

Sure there is. You standardize the class so that they actually have enough all-day buffs to use all of their slots that they aren't using.


And how do you ever expect any fighting class to compete with the cleric who channels ALL his spell slots at high levels into increasing his strength, BaB and combat damage?

The spell system isn't designed for that anymore than its designed for the wizard who wants to load up on direct damage spells and fire them all off in the same round against the same monster. It's why 3.0 haste was so broken because it started to break that paradigm, even in a minor way.

You aren't supposed to be able to bring your full force to bear in any given combat as a spellcaster, and that's why all day buffs don't work, because they let you do just that.

Part of a slot system is the assumption that you cant' blow your whole wad on one battle, because you'd be ridiculously overpowered.

And that's just what happens with all day buffs. If you had enough to use all your spellslots, then you'd end up wtih clerics with more attack, AC and damage than the average lottery jackpot.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
FrankTrollman
Serious Badass


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 27292

PostPosted: Fri Jul 16, 2004 12:32 am    Post subject: Re: Feat Blocks Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
And how do you ever expect any fighting class to compete with the cleric who channels ALL his spell slots at high levels into increasing his strength, BaB and combat damage?


By making Feats good enough, duh!

Playing whack-a-mole with anything good enough that people want to do it is retarded, letting everything be good enough that you can't imagine not having it is balanced.

-Frank
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RandomCasualty
Prince


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 3511

PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Feat Blocks Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:

By making Feats good enough, duh!

Playing whack-a-mole with anything good enough that people want to do it is retarded, letting everything be good enough that you can't imagine not having it is balanced.


So basically your solution is to let fighters take a +5 bonus to attack weapon focus like 10 times, so they get a +50 bonus to attack and damage to match the cleric? Even if he could, the cleric has more spell slots than the fighter has feats, so he still wins. And what about the wizard using direct damage spells, you're going to hand him the ability to burn all his spells in one round too?

You're just pointlessly inflating PCs. And after your done with your enormous penis design paradigm, where PCs can kill great wyrms in one round at level 10, you'll have to go back and upgrade all the monsters, unless you want the game to actually be a cakewalk for the PCs. Why not just design an entirely new game, where you can hand out +100 bonuses like nothing and character attack ratings are higher than the net worth of Microsoft.

Yeah you could do that...

Or how about you just take what's already there, and nerf the broken crap?

Fixing the problem isn't that hard. You either get rid of all day buffs entirely or simply say that you can have only one all day buff on at a time. Either way you make some effort to control inflation. As economics will tell you, inflation is a really bad thing, and you want to try to keep it down as best as possible.

Simply making the numbers bigger doesn't actually do anything but make the game an arms race where the d20 ceases to actually mean anything, and calculations take forever, and the cleric STILL has more spell slots than the fighter has feats. So you really haven't solved anything but given everyone really big numbers in an effort to appease them.

A +20 versus a DC 30 is exactly the same as a +200 versus a DC of 210. Big numbers don't do anything for the game other than complicate it needlessly.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Gaming Den Forum Index -> It's My Own Invention... All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group