What's D&D/PF like if you take out full casters?

[Ice9]

Since those creatures fly at least 60ft with perfect maneuverability, your 40ft fly speed that can be dispelled for 20d6 fall damage is absolutely worthless.

The 13K was a Winged Mask, which gives Flight (as per the spell, so 60'), at will. So - I don't know what you or Frank are on about. And I don't see how "able to be dispelled" is a situation unique to a party of non-casters - also, Fly specifically drops you slowly when dispelled, after one round of which you could start flying again.

[Koumei]

Fine, so after you wipe someone else's jizz off your lips (to explain how you got that specific item), simply decide on a +2 item and a +3 item to cross off your list of "gear I have".

Presumably you're keeping your magic weapon and armour, so you're probably losing your +3 Cape of Saving Throws and +2 Boots of Constitution. Because you want to keep your Strength and Dexterity boosters. So what happens next is the first time you're called upon to make a Will Save, you instantly lose the game, but hey, you're flying!

[erik]

So what happens next is the first time you're called upon to make a Will Save, you instantly lose the game, but hey, you're flying!

Ah, except vs dominate person. Don't forget as we learned against 3 aboleths that we can expect to always have prot vs evil on. So at the start of every encounter someone busts out the wand of prot vs evil and uses the next 4 rounds to cover the party. Making it effectively a 3 person party for all combats.

[ishy]

But what if it happens to be a neutral aboleth in pathfinder? Then protection from evil won't work anymore!

[erik]

But what if it happens to be a neutral aboleth in pathfinder? Then protection from evil won't work anymore!

=-p

It's actually the rider about being protected against mental control that comes with prot vs. evil. It even works vs. good aligned dominators.

[ishy]

Not in pathfinder -

pathfinder faq[/url]]Protection From Evil: Does the "protection against possession and mental control" aspect work against non-evil controlling spells and effects?

No. The spell says "This second effect only functions against spells and effects created by evil creatures or objects." So if a chaotic neutral enemy casts charm person on you, protection from evil doesn't have any effect because neither the spell nor the caster is evil.

—Pathfinder Design Team, 03/01/13

[erik]

Ahhh, the minute pointless changes for the sake of change. It's truly fucking 3.5 all over again.

[Kaelik]

Since those creatures fly at least 60ft with perfect maneuverability, your 40ft fly speed that can be dispelled for 20d6 fall damage is absolutely worthless.

The 13K was a Winged Mask, which gives Flight (as per the spell, so 60'), at will. So - I don't know what you or Frank are on about. And I don't see how "able to be dispelled" is a situation unique to a party of non-casters - also, Fly specifically drops you slowly when dispelled, after one round of which you could start flying again.

Well 1) Since the winged fucking mask doesn't exist anywhere on the Pathfinder SRD that has eight flying items but no winged mask...

2) level 10 Wizard has CL 10 (or higher) fly. Winged mask has unidentifiable CL because it doesn't exist. But you can look in your big book of shit Ice9 made up and tell me how it's CL is 5.

And how does dispel magic work again? Caster Level check? So something that fails 70% of the time against the Wizard (who doesn't even need to fly to target the Dragon with spells) still has a 55% chance of working on on the flight spell cast from an item.

Now if the Winged Mask literally allows you to cast fly at will, then that isn't particularly useful, because at will, but how am I supposed to know because you are now citing to items that don't fucking exist.

Oh course, I wonder why they would make an item that gives 60ft fly speed with perfect maneuverability at will for 13,000gp when they also have Lesser Wings of flying which cost 22,000gp and give you 30ft fly speed with poor maneuverability and 54,000gp 60ft (average) Wings of Flying.

I mean Don't get me wrong, people have existed that couldn't figure out that if it was at will you just use it every five rounds when you aren't in combat so that you are at several minutes when combat starts, but the odds that every single person who works at Pathfinder is that stupid, and they also think one round at the beginning of combat is worth more than 43,000gp, and the put the one item that demonstrates this in some obscure book so obscure that the guy running d20psrd.org never noticed it... Well, I think more likely that some dude forgot that he made up a custom item of flying for his game that is more powerful than all the actual ones.

[Lokathor]

I was able to find out the following just by googling it:

Winged Mask: The edges of this full-face mask are made to resemble feathers or wings. The wearer can fly at will, but glows with white light whenever this ability is used. The mask can only carry the wearer and 50 lbs. of other material. If grappled or weighted down in mid-flight, the wearer is borne to the ground under the effects of a feather fall.

Caster Level: 5th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, feather fall, fly, light; Market Price: 36,000 gp; Weight: 1 lb.

And since pathfinder is "100% backwards compatible" and all that shit, then it counts as being a pathfinder available item too.

[Kaelik]

I was able to find out the following just by googling it:

Winged Mask: The edges of this full-face mask are made to resemble feathers or wings. The wearer can fly at will, but glows with white light whenever this ability is used. The mask can only carry the wearer and 50 lbs. of other material. If grappled or weighted down in mid-flight, the wearer is borne to the ground under the effects of a feather fall.

Caster Level: 5th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, feather fall, fly, light; Market Price: 36,000 gp; Weight: 1 lb.

And since pathfinder is "100% backwards compatible" and all that shit, then it counts as being a pathfinder available item too.

So then the Backwards compatible Dragons can just use feats from Draconomicon and meta-breath feats and spells from SpC instead right? Right? Right? And no DM will ever get mad when you ask for a setting specific item from a completely different game that is better than the 54,000gp item for 13,000gp. Right?

But real talk. I walk back my criticisms of Ice9, since he was probably just not talking about Pathfinder, in which case I refer you to said feats and spells. And since my fly criticisms were based primarily on pathfinder I am perfectly content to rely on the 50% chance of Glabrezu and Greater Teleport at will, or the Summon Undead, or the 14d4 breath weapon and fast fly speed and swim.

[Lokathor]

Pathfinder made its own pile of intractable shit when it tried to claim 100% backwards compatibility.

Anyway, I think this question can't be so clearly answered because the factor that keeps being left sitting on the side is "it depends on how much DM Pity you're getting". Remember that people totally think that their SRD fighters and monks can compete equally up to any level with all challenges, caster or non. Because they don't know any better, because they can't tell when the DM is softballing them, because they've never in their life had a non-softball time of it. OR if they did, they just assume that that DM was being some asshole. So as much as those encounters exist at CR 10, and there's also the Giant Crab at CR 3 that will 100% TPK any level 3 party, people will still get along if the DM is going easy on them.

Without casters in your party the DM has to go easier on you, but the game can still function at all if it has to.

[ishy]

I was able to find out the following just by googling it:

Winged Mask: The edges of this full-face mask are made to resemble feathers or wings. The wearer can fly at will, but glows with white light whenever this ability is used. The mask can only carry the wearer and 50 lbs. of other material. If grappled or weighted down in mid-flight, the wearer is borne to the ground under the effects of a feather fall.

Caster Level: 5th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, feather fall, fly, light; Market Price: 36,000 gp; Weight: 1 lb.

And since pathfinder is "100% backwards compatible" and all that shit, then it counts as being a pathfinder available item too.

That says 36k, not 13k though? And only 50 lbs. is a pain, since even basic full plate is already 50 lb

[Dean]

One of my things to think about is how, supposedly, Pathfinder is totally backwards compatible with 3.5. And 3.5 made a big deal about being totally backwards compatible with 3.0.

So apparently no one should have any problems with me playing in a Pathfinder game as a Pathfinder Lunar Naga who's a 3.5 Ur-priest and uses the 3.0 Initiate of Mystra feat. Since those haven't been re-written and they are all apparently still 100% legit that is totally a character that people will let me play. Right? Some 13th level character with 9th level spells, persistenting spells and making everyone but me fight in an anti-magic field? Mixing and matching every edition is no problem right???

[Lago PARANOIA]

You're trying to snark, but that ship sailed sometime in 2010. Pathfinder fans have collective amnesia over 'backwards compatibility' and trying to get something from 3rd Edition D&D over to Pathfinder is like trying to get something from 1E D&D to 2E D&D.

[Kaelik]

That says 36k, not 13k though? And only 50 lbs. is a pain, since even basic full plate is already 50 lb

You are right, that item costs 36,000gp and doesn't have a listed fly speed, so everything is still faster than you and you spent 36,000gp on it which is more than half your WBL.

[Lokathor]

That says 36k, not 13k though? And only 50 lbs. is a pain, since even basic full plate is already 50 lb

It does indeed. I didn't check Magic of Faerun itself, that's the text as it was cited here: http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6573.0

So apparently no one should have any problems with me playing in a Pathfinder game as a Pathfinder Lunar Naga who's a 3.5 Ur-priest and uses the 3.0 Initiate of Mystra feat.

I would personally have problems with you playing any of those individually, I don't even begin to know why you'd think no one would ever have problems with them put all together. You'd have to have the most permissive DM ever.

It sounds dumb to bring up again, particularly on TGD, but remember that though it is legal under the rules it doesn't mean it'll actually ever see play (eg: Chain Binding Effriti / The Wish Economy is not a thing that most games will ever use as a concept), particularly when the DM is the kind of person who's DMing for Pathfinder instead of Tome.

[Cyberzombie]

One of my things to think about is how, supposedly, Pathfinder is totally backwards compatible with 3.5. And 3.5 made a big deal about being totally backwards compatible with 3.0.

Compatibility and allowed material are different things. While PF is at least (mostly) compatible with 3.5 material, that doesn't mean your average DM will allow it.

I have yet to actually find a PF game that allowed 3E stuff. Generally it's all pathfinder.

[Dogbert]

The game doesn't become "unplayable" per se if you ask me, but the GM better be ready to lowball all encounters once players enter the midgame... also, forget about monsters with SoD so your players don't (rightfully) cry foul.

And forget about high-level plots too, as already mentioned earlier in the thread, we're talking about the B-team. These guys will never have the agency of true high rollers regardless of level.

[TiaC]

Cheapest all-day flight is this graft.

Feathered Wings: Feathered wings resemble those of a vrock or erinyes: large and birdlike, though often bearing claws at the top joint. The grafted creature can fly at a speed equal to twice its normal land speed, with average maneuverability. When not flying, the grafted creature can use the wings to buffet and disorient its opponents. Each round, in addition to its normal attacks, it can make a Bluff check (opposed by its opponent's Sense Motive check). If this check is successful, the grafted creature's attacks in that round gain a +2 circumstance bonus.
Prerequisites: Graft Flesh, fly, creator must be a fiend; Market Price: 10,000 gp.

It will try to turn you evil, force a save against wisdom damage and give you social penalties against non-evil people.

[OgreBattle]

"Well if a GOOD person was mind controlling you, you're obviously doing something EVIL!"

[cthulhu]

Have tried precisely this (knocking out tier 1/2 characters), assuming you make the obvious 'you need to be this tall to ride' adjustments it works fine, and remember that the fighter and barbarian still aren't viable by themselves and need huge buffs.

[erik]

the Giant Crab at CR 3 that will 100% TPK any level 3 party

unless...




[edit: updated picture to have something for the archer to shoot at... and because I just found the crab picture and it suggests a sophisticated, "En garde bitches."

[OgreBattle]

the Giant Crab at CR 3 that will 100% TPK any level 3 party

unless...

What if he was riding a giant crab

[Ghremdal]

So what happens next is the first time you're called upon to make a Will Save, you instantly lose the game, but hey, you're flying!

Ah, except vs dominate person. Don't forget as we learned against 3 aboleths that we can expect to always have prot vs evil on. So at the start of every encounter someone busts out the wand of prot vs evil and uses the next 4 rounds to cover the party. Making it effectively a 3 person party for all combats.

Or everyone pops out a potion of protection from evil when needed. Same thing with fly. Or invisible creatures.

You only need to fly when the flying critter has a greater effective damage output then the party. A line of acid doesn't cut it.

Anyway the discussion was not about a party of non casters, but about a party without full casters (so Cleric, Druid, Sorceror, Wizard). Stuff like Magus and Inquisitor are in.

I'm not arguing that a party of non casters are effective at that level, because they are not. I am arguing that a party with partial casters is still able to handle most if not all level appropriate challenges.

[Ravengm]

the Giant Crab at CR 3 that will 100% TPK any level 3 party

unless...

What if he was riding a giant crab

What if he was a giant crab?