I'm talking about how you could modify rules to prevent it. So quite simply, falling objects don't hit adventurers as a rule. Period.
Except that you don't have to just plain drop. You can just grab a hefty rock that you could throw, dive and release.
Will'o'wisps? You mean the kind that have a melee touch attack and that's it?
Imps? 1/day they can cast suggestion as a SLA, that's their only ranged attack.
Mephits have breath weapons that are 10 or 15 ft cones, meaning that a decent jump check or a polearm can enable you to reach one, as can thrown weapons.
Chimeras, ok that's one more. So you've got manticiores, chimeras and dragons. That's seriously it.
I'm used to will-o'-the-wisps being alot like lantern archons, my bad on that. Imps and mephits very much do have ranged attacks, because of that thing called
hands, much like harpies & sprites (of various types), another one you conveniently forgot about.
And since you will only consider the direct evidence we shove in your face, I'll include a (*) for creatures that resonate in mythology and aren't just weird things made to fit the archetype (though the fact there's an archetype to match says something). Don't forget the hands thing.
From the SRD: Arrowhawk, gargoyle*, succubus, genies*, ghost* (those with TK and those with bows), certain half-fiends, ogre mage * (oni and miscellaneous eastern demons), ravid (stay out of reach while the environment attacks is equivalent to ranged attacks), vampires* (D&D vamps can still use dominate while in cloud form, and other types of vampires in myth can fly in human form, and spider climbing w/shifting works too), ythark
Even in your appreciation for 4E, we have the spined devil. A level 6 flying monster with a ranged attack. So obviously they're still making monsters do things drastically before the PCs (which was the point of this thread I believe).
And, like it or not, it is an established archetype for there to be archers on flying mounts. It's not a fact that they are stupid, it's your opinion, and one I disagree with. *I* would rather see the stupid swordsman be removed rather than the archer with flight, since those two cannot work together (though a smart swordsman can).
Wrong. You're dex denied, but not flat-footed...
Alright, you got me on the running part. I suppose the ranged+speed doesn't pan out when they start their fight adjacent to each other, except for the fact that the swordsman has but once chance to make that sunder attempt (we can't assume he has the feat, because that takes even more effort to have than a tower shield) since it's an opposed attack roll.
Ceilings aren't always going to be low.
You speak of the vaulted ceilings as being more common than the 10' tall ones, and not dependent. Even then, we're going to have climbers & people standing in doorways partway up the wall on another level, all using ranged attacks; screwing the stupid swordsman as readily as a flier.
I was the one who brought up hiding behind trees and such...
I call bull.
virgileso wrote:Now, for when the bear gives up and goes behind cover or into his cave...
Now, I had also mentioned before the idea of "hiding under a rock". I just realized that you're possibly reading the most literal interpretation of that phrase. I mean for that technique to cover the entire range of using cover/concealment to prevent an archer from shooting at you so he has to get close to find/get you.
I would then include samples of how to go about said "hide under a rock", but you've been arguing over every damn nit-picky thing, trying to find holes with the purpose that somehow only flight is capable of doing this and no other form of keeping distance from the swordsman.
How the fuck are you going to hide carrying a tower shield?
By not wearing it when you aren't using it? It's just an extra weight in your backpack that way. If you can't hide, put on the shield.
That's why I've been 'covering my ears', because I can't hear it when you muffle it with arguing.
Well, the archetype evolves, not goes away. High level still has melee characters, it's just that they fly and teleport.
This seems like a contradiction in your general attitude throughout this thread. When we have the archetype evolve to include new abilities & it's still the archetype, then that ability isn't something that breaks the archetype; thus having flight enter the scene at an earlier level wouldn't harm your 'archetype'.
