Why caps?

[MrWaeseL]

I don't understand why damage dealing spells have caps, because

- Damage spells are the suck (this has been discussed before)
- There isn't a cap on duration
- Who cares what the max damage of a spell is, since it's all about what you can do now? If the cap is at 25d6 and you don't play epic, the cap is meaningless to you.

So, I think caps should just go away. Even throwing 6 20d6 fireballs at level 20 isn't unblalancing.

[Boulie_98]

Damage spells might be the crap, but they're still really really popular. Removing the cap from Fireball would have a big effect on games out there since a lotta wizards and sorcerers will then go 'Ooh! I'll get Fireball for level 3, and Empowered Fireball for level 5, and Maximized Fireball for level 6! I'm so powerful!'

Barring this, I can see the merits of your idea.

[Draco_Argentum]

Boulie is right, removing caps will make people post more really funny "phj34r /\/\y 1337 p0\/\/3r5" threads. Sounds like a good deal to me.

[MrWaeseL]

By the way, there is a thread about this thing (branching off from a discussion about cometfall) on the WOTC boards as well...they're all vehemently opposed, as far as I have read.

[Draco_Argentum]

Yeah, saw it right after I posted here the first time.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Psionics doesn't have any caps. And reall, dice caps are why direct damage sucks right now. Well, that's why it really really sucks, it might simply suck after removing them.

[User3]

As I understand it, psionics allows you to blow all your power points on one big blast, thus no caps(As I could not find a rule saying that a psionicist can only spend a certain number of points per turn).

The mage, however, is always blowing one 3rd level slot. the reasoning is that a third level spell should do a range of damage, and if you want more, you need to invest in a bigger spell.

I'm not sayihng the reasoning is valid, but there it is.

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Pre-Epic people often get the 25d5 damages due to "+ caster level" items and effects. I mean, an Ioun Stone with that effect is 30K, Karma Beads are like 70K, and Death Knell is a 2nd level spell and can be put on a wand. Ever see a +50 to caster level?

[MrWaeseL]

1086621849[/unixtime]]Pre-Epic people often get the 25d5 damages due to "+ caster level" items and effects. I mean, an Ioun Stone with that effect is 30K, Karma Beads are like 70K, and Death Knell is a 2nd level spell and can be put on a wand. Ever see a +50 to caster level?

You're right; I forgot about those. Oh, and yes. Poor cows...

[Oberoni]

1086621849[/unixtime]]As I understand it, psionics allows you to blow all your power points on one big blast, thus no caps(As I could not find a rule saying that a psionicist can only spend a certain number of points per turn).

From the SRD:

Power Point Limit: Some powers allow you to spend more than their base cost to achieve an improved effect, or augment the power. The maximum number of points you can spend on a power (for any reason) is equal to your manifester level.

So you cannot exceed your manifester level in points spent on any power at any time. This is the only cap on the number of dice you can chuck, and it's a pretty good one.

[Username17]

The idea is to force people to use higher level spells when they get to higher level. Consider that many damaging spells have no saving throw, and thus the only thing they get from being higher level directly is the ability to penetrate bigger globes of invulnerability (a series of spells which I have not seen cast since 3rd edition came out).

So they hit you with damage caps to try to make you continuously upgrade your damaging attack spells in the same way that they put hit die caps and spell level dependent save DCs on the save or dies.

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Now, while this does in fact lead to people continuously using higher and higher spell slots to hit people with - it is also a crappy thing to do to people. The most visible effect, after all, is that organic sorcerers are really unsatisifed when they realize that they have to keep using up spells known on the latest and greatest version of the same damn spell to keep up, and all their previous spells known on the subject are completely wasted (and the 3.5 trade in option is not enough to cover that).

The second most visible effect of this is that partial casters seem to have a bunch of loose change in their cup while playing dodge ball. Rangers and Paladins and Hex Blades all get spells which are already out of date when they first show up. By the time you get one of those precious 2nd level attack spells it is completely obsolete and you might as well just hit people with a sword.

And the third most visible effect is that multicasters get it in the crotch with a golf club. When you aren't continuously sacrificing levels to spellcasting - you aren't advancing keeping up your spells. That means that your spells are becoming dated and unsatisfactory and aren't even being replaced.

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The basic problem here is that there are not 10 levels worth of spells for offensive magic to do. At first level you get burning hands, and it fills an area with fire damage. Except for making BH obsolete by having higher caps, better scaling, larger area and more range - how is Fireballl any different? The basic description "you do fire damage to an area" is the same. The basic effect "not quite enough fire damage gets handed out to be especially worth using against an opponent of your level" is the same in both cases.

The one could naturally turn into the other as you went up in level and noone would notice any game mechanical problems. But the desire is there to fill out 10 whole levels of spells. And the theory is that you need to have new offensive spells at each level. And since there aren't really any new attack spell ideas, the choice instead is to arbitrarily prevent old spells from keeping up to force you to buy the same spell over and over again.

"New! Improved! The same god damn spell you got two levels ago without the arbitrary restriction keeping it from working at this level!"

Planned obsolescence. Forcing you to spend money on new computer hardware for 20 years. Forcing you to continuously spend higher level spell slots on the same stupid ass spells for 30.

-Username17

[User3]

I like caps in general on spells. People SHOULD have to use higher level spells as they grow in power. Now, it'd be ok to allow sorcerers to extend the caps of their damage spells by paying a higher level slot, but they should always be paying that higher level slot. Making damage spells weak but cheap in terms of spell slots isn't a fix.

The reason direct damage sucks is not because of caps, it's because of how the spells scale. Every spell shouldn't scale at d6 per level. High level spells need to scale at 2d4 per level and so on. Having everything on the d6 standard is stupid. That's the real problem.

1d6/level is fine for 2nd edition where the monsters don't have con bonuses, but when you're giving them con bonuses that increase as their CRs go up, the spells damage needs to take that into consideration.

[User3]

Fireball is a crap attack spell, but a fine artillary piece spell. Its the wizard equivalent to a long bow. Need a bridge destroyed, then Fireball. Have an enemy who has no ranged attacks, then Fireball.

Scorching Ray, while not a great damaging spell, scales due to the fact that it has no save. At 12d6 at 9th level to a single enemy(with three sucessful ranged touch attacks, almost a given, and the chance of a crit), and the fact that metamagic might even make it worth it at high levels(Empower is 18d6 at 4th level, and Energy Admixture is 24d6 at 6th level, and 32d6 for both at 8th level, with Maximize as an extra 36 points of damage on average for 3 spell levels, making it a fine 'tween spell level addition for 5th and 7th slots).

[Username17]

I like caps in general on spells. People SHOULD have to use higher level spells as they grow in power.

... because only in this way can we ensure that multicasters and partial casters don't grow in power.

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I think it's time we reevaluated whether we even need spell levels. You don't get levels of stabbing people in the face, you just get the ability to stab more times and get larger bonuses with the stabbing. What exactly does handing out all those extra spell slots of new spell levels (to specialized casters only) and then demanding that they use the biggest and baddest spell slots if they don't to suck do for us?

It makes people who don't buy into the next spell level instantaneously inferior, but does it do anything good at all?

-Username17

[Josh_Kablack]

The reasoning goes back to the 1st to 2nd edition AD&D conversion. Brian's 1st edition mage "Mini-Gatt" only used 2 spells - Magic Missile and Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer (for Magic Missile, Magic Missile, Magic Missile) in 1st ed AD&D there was no level cap, damage spells were awesome, and to the best of my recollection, Magic Missile worked the same as it does now (if my memory is faulty, it was better) in that you got 1 missle for every additional 2 levels, so if you ventured into the rarely visited realms of say 15th level games, you had a spell that did 8d4+8, dividable between up to 8 targets and didn't allow a save. Now, Fireball would do 15d6 at that level, which was much better, unless your enemies made their save, in which case Magic Missile was better, and as levels got higher you could expect enemies to make their save more and more easily. So eventually Magic Missile would surpass Fireball against everything but tight formations, and Magic Missile was only first level.

[User3]

1086628431[/unixtime]]
I think it's time we reevaluated whether we even need spell levels. You don't get levels of stabbing people in the face, you just get the ability to stab more times and get larger bonuses with the stabbing. What exactly does handing out all those extra spell slots of new spell levels (to specialized casters only) and then demanding that they use the biggest and baddest spell slots if they don't to suck do for us?

Sure, if you want to rewrite the entire system, then go for it. But working under the current system, allowing casters to do lots of crap with low level slots and not requiring high level slots is a bad idea. It's nothing more than a powerup for classes that already don't need more power.

[MrWaeseL]

1086636430[/unixtime]]But working under the current system, allowing casters to do lots of crap with low level slots and not requiring high level slots is a bad idea. It's nothing more than a powerup for classes that already don't need more power.

It's also powering up class combinations that do need more power.

[Username17]

Magic Missile worked the same as it does now

But people had less hit points, attacks did less damage and save DCs were unchanging while save bonuses kept improving - so in that environment 3.5 damage guaranteed per two levels (round up) was totally different.

If you cast it twice you were killing creatures of your own level - that just isn't close to true with the later incarnations of the rules.

-Username17

[Josh_Kablack]

1086645766[/unixtime]]

Magic Missile worked the same as it does now

But people had less hit points, attacks did less damage and save DCs were unchanging while save bonuses kept improving - so in that environment 3.5 damage guaranteed per two levels (round up) was totally different.

Which is why I mentioned that damage spells were awesome in previous editions. Since Fireball ownzorred spellcasting in previous editions, any spell which eventually bypassed it was probably unbalanced.

[User3]

1086640713[/unixtime]]
It's also powering up class combinations that do need more power.

Not really.

It's another bandaid fix attempt to make multiclass casters work better, but it's not fixing the root of the problem. A fighter/mage can already swing a sword and kill someone. He really doesn't even care much about throwing fireballs. It'd be nice if they were fairly effective, but he's already got buffs and his sword. Why he learned to cast spells is more for the utility spells, like fly, passwall, and dimension door, whcih he isn't getting any faster by removing the cap.

Most of the time when I want a fighter mage, I don't really care much about the combat spells he's casting... because he's got a sword. Conceptually you gotta think Elric here. He doesn't use his magic much in combat, he just hacks stuff up with Stormbringer. His magic is for all the out of combat stuff where his sword won't help him much, like divinations. And this is where multiclass characters fail miserably.

The only way to make multiclass casters work well is to introduce something like the magical aspect casters from Shadowrun, where they can cast as well as a full wizard but only in a limited area of expertise. Maybe allow them to cast a single school of magic as though they were a full wizard of their character level.

Fighter/mages really don't need save or dies and direct damage. They're going to be way more interested in fly, charm monster and dimension door anyway.

[Draco_Argentum]

RC, you'd prefer VCL over caster level = character level.

If I could find the link I'd post it.