The Rogue role in the Iconic-4 Party

[Wrenfield]

In my neck of the woods lately, as well as on a number of online forums I peruse .... has been a recent backlash on the role of the Rogue in a archetypical 4-character party. And I mean a significant backlash.

I rarely see players interested in taking advantages of prodigious skill ranks of the Rogue ... or in the nuances needed to make the most of them. I see a lot of Rogue-surrogate builds that are happy getting an average of 4 ranks/level, perhaps augmented with Nymph's Kiss and whatnot, and fulfilling the bare bones combat skill needs of the Rogue. And in the process, calling themselves the "Skill Monkey" of the group.

I see a lot of kvetching over Rogues sneak-attack being impotent vs. undead, elementals, plants, oozes, etc. This is only compounded by the ascending popularity of the that armor/shield enhancement that either partially or wholely negates sneak attacks. Depending upon the campaign, these monster types usually comprise usually 15-50% in a typical environment.

I see whining that the Rogue "Traps" ability is overrated. And is better served by brute-forcing your party through traps instead of taking the time-consuming method of Roguish searching-&-disabling.

I see a lot of alternative Rogue builds that take 1 level of Rogue *for* the Rogue Traps ability, the Skill Knowledge feat (from UA) attached to either Disable Device or Search, and a Rogue-surrogate class that provides more frontline, archery, or spellcasting muscle for the remaining 19 levels.

**

Do I believe any of the crap above? Hell no. I love Rogues. I find them to be a notch above the medium on the power scale (Druids, Clerics, & Wizards are on the steps above them). And I find skills to be as crucial to D&D success as is high level spells and hardcore fighter-type firepower.

So how about you folks ... are you seeing the same thing in your local meta-environment? I have access to a number of unique/separate gaming groups, most of which are competent or accomplished min/maxers and mechanics experts.

How would you respond on the contrary to these people to show that Rogues can indeed, wield True Ultimate Power?

[User3]

To me rogues are what a balanced class should be like, for the most part. They have a clearly defined role, and you can take 20 levels of rogue and not feel like a total chump.

As for bruteforcing traps... I dunno. Don't see too much of that. An encounter with a nasty trap can lead to TPK. But yes, the sheer number of monsters, class abilities, and items that grant partial or total resistance to being SAed is disheartening.

[User3]

i'm often surprised that no one sings the praises of Use Magic Device. As a Rogue with Skill Mastery, you avoid the biggest danger(stuff going bang in your face) and you have the skill points to really make those big checks. Magical Aptitude and Skill focus(Use Magic Device) combined with a good Cha means that you make an excellent summoner. Planar Bind powerful spellcasting Outsiders, and have them cranking out more scrolls, wands, and other magic devices for you to use to boost your combat effectiveness.

With those feats, a 10th level rogue with a modified 20 Cha(base 14 and a +6 item) can activate scrolls as a 13th level caster(wizard or cleric, who cares!) every time, without fail. Uber summoners who put an 18 into Cha and put level ability points into it can have activate scrolls as a 15th level caster. And all that Cha is great for convincing demons that you are the great and powerful Oz, and that your will should be obeyed.

Basically, you can become as powerful as a cleric, wizard, and a fighter with a little guts and UMD.

The Sorcerous Rogue lives! ATs are for wussies!

[Draco_Argentum]

I've seen a couple claims that rogues are overpowered at WotC recently. Along with the normal SA is too limited bit. (Which I agree with.) Other than that I haven't noticed a backlash.

[Josh_Kablack]

My list of gripes about the rogue:

1. The x4 Skill Points at first character level makes order of taking a rogue level too important for multiclass builds.

2. The Trapfinding ability should be available as a feat and not solely as a class ability.

3. The wording on the option of taking a bonus feat in place of a special ability should be tightened up to confirm or deny Franks literalist interpretation of it

4. The rules for traps as a whole suck hardcore. This forces DMs to wing it oldscholl in creating and adjucating traps and consequentially makes the relative value of Trapfinding, Trapsense,Search, and Disable Device all vary wildly in different campaigns.

5. Slippery Mind is too weak in general.

Note that there are exactly 2 of those which are directly parts of the class, and those two are minor gripes.

[User3]

Traps are also way too expensive. The whole "and then Rambo rigs a few traps in the forest involving falling logs" impossible. The "Crossbow/Rope/Door" trap is like 2000 gp. Dumb.

[Josh_Kablack]

The minimum cost for a mechanical trap is CR x 100 gp. The minimum CR for a mechanical trap is 1. (Both DMG 75) The DC for crafting a CR 1 mechanical trap is 20 (DMG 76). This uses the Craft skill rules, so if your Craft Trapmaking tjeck x 20 (the DC) equals 1000, you can make a CR trap in merely one week. If it equals 10,000 you can make it in a mere day. Now explain to me why someone with a Craft Skill of +40 (or maybe +490) cares about a CR 1 trap. The rules are written in such a way as to make Craft(trapmaking) worthless and encourage all traps to be made via Snare, Glyph of Warding. Fire Trap, Fabricate and so forth.

But the suck does not stop there, no sireebob, the base DC for magic traps is the level of the spell used. So it's a fair encounter for a level 9 group to run into a Gate trap that summons a Balor. Oh and since the spell level determines the base DC, traps never get any deadlier after about CR 9, they just trigger more easily and auto-reset. So characters above 17th level don't actual get xp for dealing with traps.

To recap, the 3.5 trap rules require either magic or a character of nearly 20th level to craft the most basic CR 1 trap in a week of dedicated work, imply that a 9th level party can handle a 9th level spell as a fair encounter and imply that characters above 17th level shouldn't ever encounter traps. And those are just the parts I'm clear about, much of the trap-creation system is too ambigious for me to understand in attempts to use it.

Now somebody explain to me why anybody thought it was a good idea to reprint these from Lute & Loot...?

[Username17]

Now somebody explain to me why anybody thought it was a good idea to reprint these from Lute & Loot...?

OK, it goes like this: Some people think they see "balance" when there's a really obvious idea for winning and people aren't doing it.

So in this case, the obvious use for traps is to set them up in the Dungeon. After all, monsters can apparently wander over traps without setting them off, so obviously PCs should be able to set up tripwires and crossbow traps in front of the party wizard that will jank over any creature who tries to charge the back ranks.

And with the Song and Silence rules, people aren't doing that. It seems like the kind of thing that a munchkin would just naturally do all the time, and they aren't doing it. So it seems like it must be balanced somehow.

Actually people aren't using it because it's completely incomprehensible and totally retarded. But according to their self tests for balance - checking the min/max board on WotC to see if people are drooling over it - it makes the cut.

It's a stupid method of looking for balance, since it's a highly insular group who go through fads and don't seem all that bright, and it doesn't help you find totally underpowered or simply impossibly clumsy rules.

-Username17

[Lago_AM3P]

It's a stupid method of looking for balance, since it's a highly insular group who go through fads and don't seem all that bright, and it doesn't help you find totally underpowered or simply impossibly clumsy rules.

Oh, Frank, you've stolen my heart, you naughty, brusque, meticulous Cinderella you.

[The_Hanged_Man]

Do they really look to the WotC min-maxxers for rules and balance analysis? For the luv of gawd.

[Username17]

1086223422[/unixtime]]Do they really look to the WotC min-maxxers for rules and balance analysis? For the luv of gawd.

I have seen in print more than once that WotC designers frequent the min/max board to attempt to find the biggest problems of game balance.

Which is how they decided that their biggest game breakers in 3rd edition were Haste, Harm, Hold Person, and Polymorph. And not, for example, Awaken, Simulacrum, Gate, (Lesser) Planar Binding, and Polymorph.

-Username17

[MrWaeseL]

Wow, this almost makes it our duty to go to the min/max board and spam it from head to toe with polymorph threads

[Draco_Argentum]

1086247376[/unixtime]]Haste, Harm, Hold Person, and Polymorph. And not, for example, Awaken, Simulacrum, Gate, (Lesser) Planar Binding, and Polymorph.

Bold mine.

Unfortunately polymorph is on the "we fixed this" list. Oddly enough I don't think putting simulacrum etc of that list will actually help anyone.

[Essence]

The second Polymorph referrs to PAO, not PS or PO.

[Draco_Argentum]

Which means that the WotC min/maxers didn't think PO was broken?

[User3]

I've only seen Snow Savant and Lago proclaim that PAO is broken on the min max board.

Everyone else poo-poos it as beeing a "nice" spell.

[Username17]

I've only seen Snow Savant and Lago proclaim that PAO is broken on the min max board.

Everyone else poo-poos it as beeing a "nice" spell.

:hurk:

-Username17

[Draco_Argentum]

Since both of them already don't suck that really dosen't improve my thoughts about the WotC min/max board.

[Lago_AM3P]

POA is the most broken spell ever written.

There are spells that are more powerful, like shapechange and ice assassin, but at least you know what you GET when you use them.

I can seriously name like 10 separate ways this spell will destroy your game. I am honestly surprised that this spell hasn't gone the way of the Maho Tsukai for dishonorable powergaming.

[Username17]

I am honestly surprised that this spell hasn't gone the way of the Maho Tsukai for dishonorable powergaming.

Around these parts it mostly has. I mean, usually a shapeshifter build ends with "And then I could PAO for even more power, but what's the friggin point?"

When you are growing Pigeons into fully functional Rocs, or using the 3.5 version and multicasting it to make absolutely any change you can imagine permanent, why even bother? The algebra required to make the game explode with this spell doesn't even come close to being worth writing down, since the most you are going to get is people nodding their heads sagely and agreeing that the spell has to go.

-Username17