Mutants and Masterminds d20 2nd Edition Thoughts

[virgil]

Yeah, Skill Mastery only gives you automatic Take 10 power with skills, which is why I put that in Oberoni land where it would be allowed to synergize with Quickness so you can build things.

Of course, a continuous Create Object AP works too.

[Lago_AM3P]

Holy shit, stun is crazy-go-nuts powerful.

If you fail one check you're pretty much screwed, especially if the person has Duration extras tacked on it.

I can't believe I haven't noticed this before.

[Lago_AM3P]

Just a little help.

I'm trying to make a Darkness controller that combines Shikamaru's tricks with some of Raven's.

I want to have 20-22 ranks of Darkness Control while trying to combine Snare, Dazzle (at least visual, all senses if possible) Stun, Create Object, Strike (with the NA array I discussed earlier), and blast.

The thing is, I'm having trouble organizing all of these while ensuring sufficient points go to whatever--I also want to keep the stat block as small as possible so that it won't look suspicious.

I'm trying to do an attack/damage tradeoff at a ratio of 8/12 if that helps any.

[virgil]

Darkness Control 24
Power Feat: Accurate 4, Affect Incorporeal, Alternate Power 6
AP: Snare 12
* Power Feat: Accurate 4, Affect Incorporeal
* Extra: Blocks Sense (sight), Transparent
AP: Stun 12
* Power Feat: Accurate 4, Affect Incorporeal
* Extra: Ranged
AP: Blast 12
* Enhanced Feat: Precise Shot 2, All-Out Attack, Power Attack
* Power Feat: Accurate 4, Affect Incorporeal
* Extra: Penetrating 8, Vampiric
AP: Strike 12, Nullify (all) 12
* Power Feat: Accurate 4, Affect Incorporeal
* Extra: Aura (Nullify)
* Flaw: Touch Range (Nullify)
AP: Create Object 12, Teleport 4
* Power Feat: Accurate 4, Affect Incorporeal
* Power Feat: Change Direction, Change Velocity, Easy
* Extra: Duration (Create), Accurate (Teleport)
* Flaw: Medium (Teleport)
Total PP: 58

Compact Form
Darkness Control 24 (Accurate 4, Affect Incorporeal, AP 6): Snare 12 (Block Sight, Transparent), Stun 12 (Ranged), Blast 12 (Precise 2, All-Out Attack, Power Attack, Penetrating 8, Vampiric), Strike/Nullify 12 (Aura Nullify only), Create Object 12 (Continuous) & Teleport 4 (Accurate, Medium, Change Direction/Velocity): 58pp

Concealment 10
* Describe this as such: When nobody is directly looking at you, you fade and blend into the background. Once they do notice you and pay attention, it's like looking into a strobe light, their senses assaulted and after-images are left behind; usually making them wince. Therefore, even if they do find you with any of their senses, you'll enjoy a 20% miss chance because of your blurry presence.
Enhanced Skill: Stealth 4 (15 ranks)
Power Feat: Hide in Plain Sight
Flaw: Partial
Total PP: 15

That's the easiest to arrangement I can think of to get the basics of what you want, and this should give you total offensive & stealth capability, decent defense, and sufficient travel; all this for the low price of only 73pp.

If you use a similar trade-off towards Defense/Toughness (+8/+12 respectively), make all of your other saves +10, throw in Evasion, Luck Control 3, Super-Senses 5, Uncanny Dodge, & 11pp towards Notice/Sense Motive/Concentration (15 ranks each). That's another 85pp and this makes you damn solid in terms of defense. Round off your mobility with Super-Movement 2 (Permeate 1, Air-Walking 1).

All that leaves you with about 18pp to spend on whatever you please for 'concept', which goes a long way.

As an aside, I really must remind you that Nullify (Power Resistance) does nothing against super-senses. Besides, you can still use your HiPS trick against anyone as you'll have concealment (just not total) against ALL senses.

[Lago_AM3P]

As an aside, I really must remind you that Nullify (Power Resistance) does nothing against super-senses.

Why not? Can't it counter other super powers as a reaction?

I could see the argument for a free action, but as soon as someone tries to see you with their supernatural sense why wouldn't you be able to make an opposed power check?

Also, what's with affects incorporeal? Has it been a huge problem to the point where it's less efficient to just Extra Effort it? It seems like a less useful and necessary power feat as opposed to, say, indirect and subtle.

(Also, I have 38 pp left to spend from your build. What would you recommend picking up?)

[virgil]

Nullify (Power Resistance) reduces the range of Nullify to Personal and only affects powers used on you. Super-Senses also has a range of personal, and is used on the viewer, not the viewee.

As for Affects Incorporeal, that's just a habit I picked up; especially since Extra Effort only lasts for the duration of the power or the encounter (whichever is shorter), which means only for one attack since they're all instant.

You need to remember for the Subtle thing, it's a Notice DC 20 for the first rank (or automatically for a certain exotic sense, DM call). Indirect only works from a fixed point for the first rank, so you need to take it twice or thrice to get the modifiability you want for easy surprise attacks.

[Captain_Bleach]

I recently joined the Atomic Think Tank.

It seems odd in that an author's response to some of my characters would be "too powerful," but virgileso says "too weak." I don't know who to believe...
Frankly, I'm getting tired of all this number-crunching. I think that I'll just play Grimm or something.

[Prak]

Believe Virgileso, simply because this board seems to cultivate an understanding of what really goes on in games.

[virgil]

Part of it was that you upgraded the stats for several of your NPCs after I told what their PL was. The time I saw The Nerd (for example), he was a PL 7, but your first version on the Atomic Think Tank has 5 higher Toughness save and a 3 higher Defense.

It's not that Dunlow has a different opinion than I, as I would give the same opinion over there.

You do need to keep in mind that the 'effective' power of your NPCs is going to vary depending on the players. While some random fire-user villain might be mechanically PL 10, he's situationally more powerful against Origami Man, and situationally much weaker against Asbestos Man (to use obvious examples, but it can get more subtle with differences in tactics).

[Captain_Bleach]

I'll keep it in mind. I hate excessive use of numbers! I try to change one small thing, then I end up with more changes than I can count! My latest problem is that a PC of mine spent nearly half his Power Points on Mind Control, mostly to be used for juvenile delinquency, mostly making people say "penis" out loud in public. I either make NPCs with Immunity to Mental effects, and he's useless, or he Mind Controls them with a DC 23 Will Save and ends the battle.
Now don't get me wrong, I don't suck at math (or maybe I just believe myself to be so), I have one part of me that focuses on number-crunching, and another that focuses on creative storytelling. I cannot do both at once while in the middle of a game.

[virgil]

Mind Controllers are always trouble, and one-trick ponies are just as much trouble; so one-trick mind-control ponies are annoying and I'd disallow them, personally. There remains some hope...

First of all, the save DCs for non-Toughness attacks are DC 10+rank, not 15+rank. Because there's no attack roll for Mind Control (Perception range), you can't trade-off and are stuck at maximum rank 8; meaning the Will save is DC 18.

Second, you can have multiple opponents fight the party. Have the leader be effectively immune (either through very high Will save, or flat-out immune), but leave minions vulnerable so he can still do stuff.

Third, pay attention to the duration he set his Mind Control. If he didn't upgrade it, he's effectively out of the fight while he maintains control on a single victim, and he'll be needing to make Concentration checks if he's ever hit.

Fourth, obviously self-destructive commands won't be followed (generally means jumping off cliffs, shooting oneself, etc), and commands strongly against their nature allow another save with a bonus to break out.

[Captain_Bleach]

He just uses his powers for self-gratification. I'm going to have to revise his character, both mechanically and ideologically (stress on the ideology part). If he doesn't, am I in the right to out-and-out make his PC an NPC villain who became drunk on power? I think that its plausible, because absolute power in almost anyone's hands can change them into a twisted mockery of themselves.

[virgil]

Meh, it might seem a bit harsh from his PoV if you take away his character and then use it as a villain. You are in the right to require him to alter his character to something more appropriate for your game (be it mechanically or personality).

[Captain_Bleach]

Also, I don't want the characters to devolve into angsty Iron Age heroes... without good plausibility. All but one of the heroes are teenagers from mid-upper class homes who did not know poverty or violence to develop such a world-view, so their behavior and zeal towards revenge on gang members and violent criminals seem out of place. Maybe I should make a "prequel" adventure in which the characters decide to take up the role of vigilantes.

[Lago_AM3P]

All right, how does body armor and shields work with the protection power/defense bonuses?

Furthermore, what's the best arrangement for pumping up the trifecta of toughness? ([impervious] toughness, concentration, recovery check bonus, and fortitude) in terms of cost-savings?

Finally, does cover/superior position/those little bonuses count towards campaign limit bonuses? That would be really dumb if it did.

[virgil]

Equipment-based protection overlaps with their respective powers, rather than stacks.

It's a fairly obvious efficiency. Every 2pp in Constitution gives you bonuses that would normally cost you 3.25pp if you bought them seperately. Even when you go past a Constitution modifier of +9 and higher bonuses to your recovery check mean nothing, it's still a 2.25pp purchase efficiency, so you're never paying more. Now, once you hit a Con mod of PL+5, you'll actually hit the wall because there aren't any trade-offs to make Fortitude higher; that's when you start buying the protection power, assuming you're allowed to have that high a trade-off.

Besides Constitution, I don't think any other ability score is technically worth buying on its own unless you're doing your best to get your skill bonus as high as possible; since ability bonuses and skill ranks are the ones that are capped instead of final skill bonuses (making the effective skill bonus maximum be 10+PL*2).

As for situational modifiers and PL caps, the RAW are kind of muddled about explicitly stating such, but it's understood by pretty much anybody that they allow one to exceed PL caps unless specifically stated. I'll look around to see if I can find any other sources to verify this officially, but for the interests of actually having a game where tactics matter, I'd assume situational modifiers ignore PL limits.

Of course, there does remain the concern with Aid Another & Combined Attack, because that can make things get stupid once you plan on its existance through duplication/minions/summons. It's house-rule territory to try and limit Combined Attack, but it's something to be aware of.

[Lago_AM3P]

Okay, here's another thing.

Say you have a dynamic alternate power that has a lot of points per rank on it. It shares power points with a power that has few points per rank in it.

So you use extra effort to raise the DAP that has a lot of points per rank and try to shift the points back to the smaller power. What happens?

[Lago_AM3P]

Furthermore, why the hell would you pick shapeshift when you could pick transform or morph?

It seems a lot more cost-efficient and is even mentioned in the description.

[Lago_AM3P]

I mean, you could in out-of-combat funnel all of your power points to skills and stat bonuses and in combat cannibalize your stats into something you really want.

I fail to see a drawback here. The description of transform even seems to want you to do that.


While we're on the subject, why don't more people channel power points into Nemesis? With the right modifiers and the proper attention given to fundamental powers (such as protection, mind shielding, movement powers, etc.) it could be really powerful and fun.

[Captain_Bleach]

Do you expect M&M shapeshifting to be more clear and concise than D&D shapeshifting (the dreaded Polymorph)? It seems that the d20 system is cursed to have oddball shapechanging rules.

[Lago_AM3P]

Do you expect M&M shapeshifting to be more clear and concise than D&D shapeshifting (the dreaded Polymorph)? It seems that the d20 system is cursed to have oddball shapechanging rules.

The M&M shapeshifting rules are very explicit and easy to understand what you get from it.

It's just that when any power that alters your form, except for shapeshift (ironically), you tend to get huge benefits for no reason from it.

[Captain_Bleach]

Getting benefits for nor reason is not what I assume to be clear and concise, but to each his own. At least it beats the hell out of Polymorph or the True20 "get the mind of an animal if you stay too long as one" Shapeshift power.

[Lago_AM3P]

Getting benefits for nor reason is not what I assume to be clear and concise, but to each his own. At least it beats the hell out of Polymorph or the True20 "get the mind of an animal if you stay too long as one" Shapeshift power.

It's not really benefits for no reason as much as that you're (supposedly) paying a premium for versatility.

Instead of using shapeshift/metamorph/whatever, you could just take stuff as a bunch of alternate powers.

The 'problem' is that it's easier to justify a bunch of new powers off of the seat of your pants with shapeshift/magic/technology then it is with alternate powers, even though there's little game mechanical reason why they shouldn't be different.

It's like how people will let a wizard with invisibility sneak down a well-lit, featureless hallway with an alert guard in it but not an epic-level rogue.

[Captain_Bleach]

If you think Shapeshift is hard to justify, then you should check out "Variable Power" from the Mastermind's Manual (which is based off of Shapeshift). Basically, you get 5 power points per rank that you can allocate to various powers per use, with a "Sustained" duration. The flavor text is for comic book characters that can seemingly do anything (like a genie), so it has better fluff for justifying odd builds.

[Korwin]

Since this thread is very usefull, I use it for my question.
What the difference between Artificer and Ritualist?

The Ritualist user need only one skill.
The Artificer need two.

Is it because the Artificer can use the Device discount?