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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

shadzar wrote:can you find anything post Dragon 280 (i think this is where 3rd edition content started) that explains the spell in any way shape or form? if not, you must GO BACK in editions to see what it was created to do.
No retard, you never go back in editions to find out what it means. You compare the actual rules now, and you determine what it does solely from that. The part you are not getting is that the rules for spellbooks have changed since 2e.

If something appears to be a spell page, then it is in fact a spell page, because spell pages are just information, and nothing more.

If something appears to be a page from Moby Dick, it is a page, because words are words, and the same goes for spell pages.
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Post by shadzar »

yes dumbass, cause even 3.x assumed people played other editions first and foremost and understood what was in them that was NEVER reprinted in newer book. the game assumes you know something about it. only 4th edition bastardized every aspect of the game to where anything prior had no connection. 3rd was built off of 2nd where the spell came from. (initially Dragon #67 p 54 was MUCH harsher)

show me where in the rules of 3.x that states what you claim Kealik.

i have read many thread from back to 2003 about the "secret page trick" of filling a spell book with level 1 spells and then using Secret Page to put even a level 7 spell on only one page in the book, but this is some Munchkin bullshit and abuse.

the spell was created to disguise, cloak, hide the contents of a page in a spellbook, not cheat the fucking spellbook system. it would be MORE powerful than 3rd level in order for the "trick" to be viable.
Play the game, not the rules.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

"To record an arcane spell in written form, a character uses complex notation that describes the magical forces involved in the spell."

So what is a page on a spellbook? The PHB tells us, it is a description of the magical forces. If you have a description of the magical forces, then you in fact do have a description of the magical forces. There is no magic in the description.
shadzar wrote:yes dumbass, cause even 3.x assumed people played other editions first and foremost and understood what was in them that was NEVER reprinted in newer book. the game assumes you know something about it.
No, it doesn't. You keep saying this, but there is no reason to believe that. Can you point to even a single part of the rules for 3e that incorporates rules printed in different editions? No, because it doesn't exist.

But you know what it does say in the PHB?
PHB wrote: This Player’s Handbook has all the rules players need to create characters, select equipment, and engage in combat with a variety of supernatural and mythical foes.

The Dungeon Master’s Guide, available separately, provides the DM with advice, guidelines, and everything he or she needs to create challenges, adventures, and full-fledged D&D campaigns, including sections on prestige classes, magic items, and character rewards.

The Monster Manual, available separately, contains material that players and DMs alike will find useful. With hundreds of monsters to populate all levels of dungeons, this tome also includes monster creation rules, information on playing monsters as characters, details on monster tactics, and powered-up versions of standard creatures.

Together, these three volumes comprise the rules for the Dungeons & Dragons game.
shadzar wrote:i have read many thread from back to 2003 about the "secret page trick" of filling a spell book with level 1 spells and then using Secret Page to put even a level 7 spell on only one page in the book, but this is some Munchkin bullshit and abuse.
No one cares what you read in 2003, can you try to read what people are saying right now? Because you moron, absolutely no one has said you can use Secret Page to fit an entire 7th level spell on one page (unless you are a Geometer, which is a prestige class that specifically does allow you to fit a 7th level spell on a single page).
shadzar wrote:it would be MORE powerful than 3rd level in order for the "trick" to be viable.
A level 5 spell gives infinite wealth, I'm sure that a level 3 spell giving you possibly up to 1000gp in spells is well within the fucking guidelines of a 3rd level spell.
Last edited by Kaelik on Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.

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Post by shadzar »

This Player’s Handbook has all the rules players need to create characters, select equipment,
hmmm.. WBL exists in 3.5 right?

DMG page 284 contains Table 7-32

what page in the PHB is this same table to allow people to properly "create characters and select equipment" at levels higher than 1 under WBL?

oops! guess the PHB doesn't actually have ALL the rules to create characters and select equipment huh?

yet you believe the exact content of that which you quote, except when it comes to a spell clearly stating that it only changes the looks, you want to be a Munchkin and interpret the rules in your Munchkinese, rather than the English language in which it was written?

selective reading comprehension, or just a bunch of damn Munchkin rules lawyers trying to cheat the system?

+1 to the reasons i hate 3.x and those players it brought to D&D.

i will give you another chance to learn English properly.
from back to 2003
this means from now, back to 2003. the [now] would be a sic to it, but understood. it doesn't mean the same thing as you read it to mean "i read threads back in 2003".

a lesson on computers for your stupid ass. Google, is a search engine. With it you can find a topic. The internet contains things older than those written today. With google you can search forums from decades ago to see the content and discussions had on them....ergo i saw mentioned sometime in or after 2003 that this "secret page trick" was detailed in places more than wizards.com forums.

please fire your language tutor and get a new one, or go back to kindergarden so you can learn the basics of using english and then finish high school so you have some reading comprehension. then you won't fail to read forum posts, or the text of a spell such as Secret Page.
Last edited by shadzar on Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Play the game, not the rules.
Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.
Lewis Black wrote:If the people of New Zealand want to be part of our world, I believe they should hop off their islands, and push 'em closer.
good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

Kaelik wrote:You keep saying this, but there is no reason to believe that. Can you point to even a single part of the rules for 3e that incorporates rules printed in different editions? No, because it doesn't exist.
shadzar wrote:DMG page 284 contains Table 7-32
Nope, pg 284 of the DMG and Table 7-32 doesn't say anything about using 2e rules in 3e. So I guess you are just full of shit and completely wrong, and the rules for 3e don't use 2e rules at all, or assume that people read them and know them.
shadzar wrote:except when it comes to a spell clearly stating that it only changes the looks, you want to be a Munchkin and interpret the rules in your Munchkinese, rather than the English language in which it was written?
Again, you retard. The spell Secret Page only changes the looks. But since what makes a spell page is 100% looks and zero percent anything else, if you change it to look like a Secret Page it is a Secret Page.

Just like what makes a page of Moby Dick is 100% looks and zero percent anything else.
DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.

That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Post by Koumei »

Kaelik wrote:Just like what makes a page of Moby Dick is 100% looks and zero percent anything else.
Except in 2E you'll find that Moby Dick pages actually contain the essence of what a whale is, and the ink is made of the ocean.

And Shadzalinger doesn't realise that any edition newer than 2E actually exists.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

Koumei wrote:
Kaelik wrote:Just like what makes a page of Moby Dick is 100% looks and zero percent anything else.
Except in 2E you'll find that Moby Dick pages actually contain the essence of what a whale is, and the ink is made of the ocean.

And Shadzalinger doesn't realise that any edition newer than 2E actually exists.
Yes, which is why I keep telling him that 3e rules for spellbooks are different, and he is confusing 2e rules.

At which point he claims that the 3e rulebook incorporates 2e rules that they don't own copyright to because.... giant frog.
DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.

That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Post by downzorz »

How all-encompassing can a game get before it gets nonfunctional?
Things like GURPS are big, clunky systems that require dozens of hours of prep work because any particular game requires houseruling up the wazoo, but can (in theory) be used to replicate anything. Clearly this isn't the ideal.
On the other end of the scale you have things like Bakuhatsu High which emulates a very specific setting. Enough so that if you were to change the setting you would probably change a solid chunk of rules.

So how flexible can a game get with setting before it becomes too clunky to do anything well? D&D sort of falls in the middle of the road here (at least in the settings they attempt to emulate; what they succeed in doing is significantly different). Can one effectively make a RPG that covers all the medieval/iron age style lore and still throws in a smattering of things from other cultures? I'm sure there aren't hard-and-fast rules, but I wanted some people's opinions. Is a working version of GURPS even possible? (scope-wise, clearly GURPS has other issues that need to be resolved, but what doesn't)
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Post by zugschef »

If a warmage scribes a scroll of ice storm and a wizard copies this scroll into his spellbook, does the wizard prepare ice storm as a 3rd or 4th level spell?
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Post by shadzar »

a caster scribes a spell at the level indicated in the PHB for their class.
Play the game, not the rules.
Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.
Lewis Black wrote:If the people of New Zealand want to be part of our world, I believe they should hop off their islands, and push 'em closer.
good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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Post by Orion »

I believe I remember what Shadzar was referring to when he said that people used Secret Page to put a level 7 spell on a single page of a book. Obviously you can't do that with one casting of Secret Page. The argument was that you could cast Secret Page 7 times on the same sheet of paper, store part of the spell on each, and scroll through them like a Kindle without needing more than one physical surface to write on.
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Post by hyzmarca »

Could an excessively friendly Rogue use sneak attack to make surprise hugs?
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Post by Grek »

Only if their hugs do at least one damage and the Rogue otherwise meets the requirements for a sneak attack.
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Post by zugschef »

Orion wrote:I believe I remember what Shadzar was referring to when he said that people used Secret Page to put a level 7 spell on a single page of a book. Obviously you can't do that with one casting of Secret Page. The argument was that you could cast Secret Page 7 times on the same sheet of paper, store part of the spell on each, and scroll through them like a Kindle without needing more than one physical surface to write on.
You mean that he consults earlier editions of DnD? That's true but still doesn't answer my question which level the warmage's scroll of ice storm has for the wizard.

This subject brings me to another confusing point in the rules: scrolls can contain multiple spells, namely up to 1d3 on a minor and 1d6 on a major scroll. A major scroll can contain up to 6 level 9 spells but a minor scroll only up to 3 level 3 spells, yet they take up one page per level in a spellbook. Also no matter what level the spell is, a scroll containing one spell is about "8 ½ inches wide and 11 inches long" and "a scroll holding more than one spell has the same width (about 8 ½ inches) but is an extra foot or so long for each extra spell." But as soon as a wizard copies (yes, they use the word copy) the scroll into his spellbook, a level 2+ spell magically takes up several pages. DAFUQ?!

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm
Last edited by zugschef on Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by vagrant »

Magic.
Then, once you have absorbed the lesson, that your so-called "friends" are nothing but meat sacks flopping around in the fashion of an outgassing corpse, pile all of your dice and pencils and graph-paper in the corner and SET THEM ON FIRE. Weep meaningless tears.

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Post by Prak »

Apprentice: "Master, why in the nine hells does a ninth level spell take up one standard page of space in a scroll, but nine of them when scribed into a book?"

Master: "We do not question these things, for that way lies madness and the loss of one's ability to manipulate magic. Mostly through the madness."
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Post by hyzmarca »

Layers.

A scroll is basically a magical PCB. Like most modern PCBs, it's actually a sandwich of many layers, each containing its own magical circuitry, with insulating materials between them to prevent shorts. High-level material components are likely to be affixed using a ball grid array to save space.

But a spellbook page is not a circuit board. It's a circuit diagram designed by be read with the naked eye. It's naturally going to be larger, and you can't layer it.

This is also why scribing a scroll ruins it and why it takes so long. In order to scribe the scroll properly you have to delaminate it so that you can examine the magical circuits on the inside.
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Post by zugschef »

hyzmarca wrote:A scroll is basically a magical PCB.
Scrolls are carcinogenic?!?
Last edited by zugschef on Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Prak
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Post by Prak »

Has anyone figured out the pricing scheme for constructs? Since a homonculus is about all my character can make right now, I'd like to be able to make a bigger, stronger one, and need to know what that'll cost if I'm going to float it by my gm.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
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FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by hyzmarca »

zugschef wrote:
hyzmarca wrote:A scroll is basically a magical PCB.
Scrolls are cancerinogen?!?
Printed Circuit Board.

But it's quite possible that scrolls contain carcinogens. There haven't been any studies about the link between scrolls and cancer.
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Post by name_here »

Traditional-style scrolls are actually very, very long when you unroll them. The equivalent of nine pages in a single one is not at all implausible.
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Post by Nachtigallerator »

hyzmarca wrote: But it's quite possible that scrolls contain carcinogens. There haven't been any studies about the link between scrolls and cancer.
Collins and Cordell, lead authors of Libris Mortis, established a definite link between scrolls of necrotic cyst and a benign, fluid-containing tumor in their studies. One hundred per cent of experienced scroll users had a single, slightly painful tumor, and a highly statistically significant percentage of level 1 commoners targetted with the spell on the scroll developed similar cysts. Of course, you may say that I choose an extreme example, but still. This is further proof that the cancer risk from magic exposure is very real, and I urge you to think twice before having detection or even, god forbid, sending spells cast in your vicinity or living close to a magic item manufactorer.
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Post by Prak »

name_here wrote:Traditional-style scrolls are actually very, very long when you unroll them. The equivalent of nine pages in a single one is not at all implausible.
zugschef wrote:a scroll containing one spell is about "8 ½ inches wide and 11 inches long" and "a scroll holding more than one spell has the same width (about 8 ½ inches) but is an extra foot or so long for each extra spell."
emphasis added
Last edited by Prak on Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by shadzar »

s/he cant read Prak, dont waste your time.
Play the game, not the rules.
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good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
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Post by ...You Lost Me »

cancerinogen made me laugh and spill my rice.
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