The Problem with RPGs (Long Rant)

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rapanui
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The Problem with RPGs (Long Rant)

Post by rapanui »

(The following is a rant that summarizes the conclusions I have reaching about RPGing in general after a decade at it. While I have not played D&D in many years, I did play in a V:TM game some time ago, and currently run a FATE survival horror game on the web. If someone can spot a major flaw in my reasoning, or false assumption, I'd love to hear it. I am also worried that you have all heard this before, so if I'm just preaching a tired song to the choir, go ahead and say so.)

The Problem with RPGs

RPGs were originally derived from wargaming, an activity that can be compared in its ultimate goals to most sports, as its main component is skill testing. In the case of wargaming, it is a test of tactics, numerical reasoning, and rules memorization. People who are skilled at those tasks are skilled at wargaming.

RPGs also take a great deal from acting. Acting is not usually considered a game, but when children act, it is considered to be the game of pretending, so we’ll take it to be a game for purposes of this discussion. The main component is human fulfillment and philosophical content.

There, the main problem of the RPG is exposed: can the need for human fulfillment and philosophical content be reconciled with the desire to test for tactical skill?

The problem becomes most apparent when we consider that the Player Characters are supposed to be protagonists of a narrative. In acting, and writing, protagonists do not die unless the author deems there to be some relevance to the human element or philosophical content he is addressing. It would be difficult for George Orwell’s 1984 to be taken seriously if instead of reaching its intended conclusion, the protagonist Winston Smith died about half way through because he lost initiative against a gang of ruffians. Obviously, a good narrative doesn’t take kindly to dice meddling in important affairs, such as protagonist survival.

The reverse is also true. In the middle of a wargame, a player cannot simply fail to remove a piece from the board exclaiming that the piece is vital to his narrative.

Nerd 1: “No, Space Marine B cannot die from your artillery fire because he hasn’t delivered his letter to his brother yet.”
Nerd 2: “Uh. What?”
Nerd 1: “This guy’s name is John Tipper, and it’s important to the narrative that he survives.”
Nerd 2: “I move for disqualification based on lunacy.”

In the above case, Nerd 1 and Nerd 2 are trying to determine who is more skilled at a tactical game. Nerd 1’s pleading to save a character makes no sense in the context, as the game may hinge of whether the piece is on the board or not.

RPGs are effectively a wargame where narrative is supposed to count. Here, Nerd 2 might be the GM, and he might be expected to fudge the roll and continue the narrative in order to keep the game going and his players happy. But rules on these matters in RPG books are usually vague and amount to basically “don’t piss your players off” which contrasts heavily with the large number of supposedly relevant rules the players are supposed to understand and use. Why use rules when you’re simply trying to do some group storytelling?

One way to see this is simply to accept the RPG as a cleverly arranged conspiracy between all the people at the table. The unspoken sentiment is “we’re doing some group storytelling here, but we’ll disguise it as a tactical test so that we can feel like we are winning at something when our character does something cool”. That’s fine, but if that’s the case, then the rules are overly complicated in the vast majority of circumstances.

The biggest problem with the above however, is that since it is an unspoken rule, there are people who don’t actually get it, or who operate on the fallacious belief that the game is a true skill test. This is why there are disagreements between roleplayers (actors and narrative makers) and roll-players (min/maxxers, powergamers, and rules lawyers). They do not come to a meeting of the minds where the purpose of the game is concerned. The final point is this: the rules are to blame for this failure, as they present themselves as a legitimate skill-test while in truth being nothing of the sort.

In recent years, several systems with varying success have come to grapple with the problem. For me, FUDGE is noteworthy (and the more fleshed out derivative, FATE as well): a system which immediately acknowledges the idea that the players are supposed to drive the narrative. Hard rules are replaced by guidelines for gameplay, and players are given points by which they can not only change dice rolls, but also wrest control of the narrative from the GM. (This rant is not an endorsement or advertisement for FUDGE-derived systems. Many people,myself included, feel these systems are lacking something.)

I believe that this is one legitimate way of addressing the problem. There are other ways, however.

1. Make it a skill-test with some other variable keeping track of success, rather than character death. Maybe players can have a score that they subtract points from every time their character dies and the competition is to see who can keep it the highest during the campaign.

2. Introduce “Saving” into the pen and paper world. It’s already done in computer games. The idea would that before every dangerous encounter, the GM records a faithful record of the game status, and if the any characters die, or fail to achieve their goal, the game is restarted from the save point. A written record can be kept of how many places the team failed.

Obviously, these solutions have their problems too. Solution one may make situations that should be tense and nail-biting into boring encounters simply because there is never any danger. Solution two bogs the game down with recording the game state before every altercation or trap.

Conclusion: good rules cannot be built unless the basic purpose of the game is addressed explicitly.


OK, show me an I'm an idiot. :confused:
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Re: The Problem with RPGs (Long Rant)

Post by Fwib »

Space Marine B dies, but the letter survives, to be delivered to the brother posthumously. Problem solved?
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Re: The Problem with RPGs (Long Rant)

Post by PhoneLobster »

wrote:There are other ways, however.

I point to my social combat as an implementation of another alternative.

The skills test determines who takes charge of elements of the narrative.

Like playing Paper Rock Scissors to determine who tells the next line in the story.

But actually I probably just disagree with the premise that role playing boils down to two simple irreconcilable forces.

Its a very shallow view of the matter that fails to explain the apparent harmonious coexistence of these forces during the entire history of the gaming genre.

Fwib's short response pretty much explains why. Fluff is endlessly adaptable. It is only an opposing force if you INSIST on making it one.
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Re: The Problem with RPGs (Long Rant)

Post by Draco_Argentum »

You can tell a story no matter how the dice land, you can't tell The Story unless the dice land within a subset of the possible outcomes.

An RPG with a random element will always have some component of creating the story after the fact. If you want to tell a specific story remove the random and write it. You may or may not be able to do that with more than just you at the table.
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Re: The Problem with RPGs (Long Rant)

Post by SphereOfFeetMan »

rapanui wrote:There, the main problem of the RPG is exposed: can the need for human fulfillment and philosophical content be reconciled with the desire to test for tactical skill?


Yes. Your personal assumptions about what is "human fulfillment and philosophical content" and what is "the desire to test for tactical skill" are incompatible. That does not have to be the case.
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Re: The Problem with RPGs (Long Rant)

Post by SunTzuWarmaster »

I admit to only skimming the rant. When I DM, the players do not always win. I tell them this upfront, and I expect them to understand that the world is a harsh place. That being said, then the space marine that needs to deliver a letter to his brother is brought to below 0 hp because he was not defended by the PCs, you had better believe that he is going to die if he hits -10. Retreat should always be a legitimate tactical option in the face of a superior enemy.

That being said, it is the GMs job to provide legitimate challenges and see what the players come up with. I have provided what I thought were impossible challenges to players only to have them succeed and what I thought were easy challenges to players only to have them fail. Failure is not always represented as character death. Sometimes characters get captured and are provided with a new legitimate test (escape the ropes, KO the guards, run for the hills). Sometimes characters fall in a pit and are faced with a new challenge (get out of pit). Sometimes characters fall into a pit and die and the other players are faced with a new legitimate task (rescue player, heal him, get him back to top of pit). Sometimes characters fail a legitimate challenge without consequences (your spellcraft check could not determine that it is a teleportation device, activate blindly?). Sometimes the characters fail to defend the NPC and are met with a new legitimate challenge (NPC X is at -8 hp, heal him before he hits -10 while holding of the Babaus).

Yes, the DM plays with kid gloves to an extent to craft a good story. If the sun falls out of the sky and kills everyone, thats a bad story. If the characters realize the sun is falling from the sky try to stop it, fail, and Plane Shift to Heaven to escape incoming death and have to negotiate their passage out with corresponding angels/extraplanars, that is a good story. The characters could have stopped the sun from falling by restoring Pelor from his fallen status by tracking down the religious zealots who are draining him with their DarkSun god, or whatever, and had a good story there too.

1 - RPGs are full of skill tests, but the result for failure is not always death. Part of an RPG is that nobody is winning, and keeping track of a winner is very, very bad. When a player dies, it is usually a failure of the entire group and punishing a single player for this is bad. Additionally, it discourages "team play" where Player A defends Player B so that Player B can cast a spell. If you get -1 for dying and +1 for living, Player A will be winning when he lets player B die. That sucks.

2 - You have to be freaking kidding me. Let's play a system where our actions have no consequences AND we get to time travel in the storyline. Yea, good fix.

Also, death is not the end of a player character. I once played in a campaign that had a TPK in session 3. With no one to resurrect us, we fought our way through hell and across the river Styx to eventually become extraplanar pirates/entrepreneurs intent on purchasing our freedom without sacrificing our souls in the progress. If you want to tell a good story, you can present a good story full of legitimate challenges.

Your game may have varying degrees of tactical tests, varying degrees of story tests, and varying degrees of skill/problem-solving tests, but the fact that there are tests (rollplaying) in addition to progressing storyline (roleplaying) is not a bug, it is a feature.
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Re: The Problem with RPGs (Long Rant)

Post by K »

Also, RPGs seem to always assume that players must "win."

I've always been of the opinion that characters should just be assumed to be immortal (and in a world of Raise Dead, a real afterlife, and meddlesome gods, this is reasonable).

My opinion is that advancement should be based entirely on winning objective goals, and it should be OK to lose. I mean, prevent the orc attack and you go from level 2 to 3, but if you fail you stay at level 2.

The story should be dynamic with the actual dice rolls not being important. It should split off at the "did we kill that beholder general" point where in one story path you do and one where you don't. In the one where you don't this means that the plot where the beholder tries to invade the kingdom moves forward, and in the one where you do the beholder's organization goes rogue and a different story about the beholder's leaderless army starts looting ancient crypts and releasing an ancient evil begins.

The problem with the tactical wargame is that it ends at the field. Once a battle is done, there are no consequences. In an RPG, people assume "losing" means the end of a character, so they can't imagine a fun game where they lose. DMs often fudge to make players win just to keep the story a win for them, and that tends to ruin it for me. On the flipside, good tactical players are often bigger challenges that kill weaker players.

Ideally, every adventure, successful or not, means a meaningful change that players can relate to and emotionally invest in.
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Re: The Problem with RPGs (Long Rant)

Post by JonSetanta »

That's no rant, that's a well-thought essay.
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Re: The Problem with RPGs (Long Rant)

Post by RandomCasualty »

Basically you run combat as a minigame where the winner gets some advantage in the RPG world. Now, there's really no reason why combat has to die.

Well, the real question is that I'm not sure why death has to have any relevance in the combat system. Being dead is really a narrative concern, not one that has any bearing on the actual wargame.

I personally just like the Final Fantasy system, where people die in the narrative, they don't die in the combat minigame. You can let one of those Jenova spawn or Shinra soldiers shoot up Aeris as much as you want, but in the end, she only really dies when Sephiroth kills her. You also lose Aeris if you get TPKed, but that's another separate case. And that's what I feel plot immunity should be like in RPGs.

People are so obsessed with saying that PCs die or whatever in combat when they go to -10 or when some condition happens. Well why not just get rid of that. Minor characters die when brought down. Story characters don't, at least not unless they die at special points. I feel most RPGs are too realistic when it comes to that. We're not trying to simulate real life, we want to simulate cinematics and that shit doesn't happen in cinematic battles.

Other than that, don't have a fixed plotline. It's generally considered bad DMing to have some predefined thing that must happen. If you intended the space marine's letter to get through, then that space marine should have done it off camera. The DM controls everything that happens when the PCs aren't looking, so it's really not hard to make something happen, so long as you're not making something happen to the PCs.
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Re: The Problem with RPGs (Long Rant)

Post by rapanui »

Fwib said:
"Space Marine B dies, but the letter survives, to be delivered to the brother posthumously. Problem solved?"

No, that misses the point. The point is that Nerd 1 wants the character to survive for the sake of the narrative (it doesn't have to be a letter, maybe Nerd 1 just invested a lot of time into that particular marine's backstory), while Nerd 2 wants the character to die for the sake of the skill test. This doesn't actually happen during a wargame because there's a pre-existing agreement that the individual pieces do not have any narrative relevance (despite the rather detailed background to some wargames, suck as WH 40k). It happens all the time in RPGs.


PhoneLobster said:
"Its a very shallow view of the matter that fails to explain the apparent harmonious coexistence of these forces during the entire history of the gaming genre."

I tried to explain the apparent 'harmonious coexistance' by positing that in many game tables, there's a silent conspiracy to throw away the rules when necessary for the narrative.

I agree that maybe it is a little shallow, but that's just my attempt to boil things down to the bare essentials.

Draco Argentum said:
"If you want to tell a specific story remove the random and write it."

Every player at the table sits down to tell a story, the story of his or her character. They may not have a 'specific' story in mind, but getting turned to stone on a bad save may not be exactly what they had in mind for their heroic character.

SphereofFeetMan said:
"Yes. Your personal assumptions about what is "human fulfillment and philosophical content" and what is "the desire to test for tactical skill" are incompatible. That does not have to be the case."

OK, please expound on that a bit. If you disagree with my premises, I'd like to hear where I've gone wrong. Already some of you seem to think I've oversimplified the problem.

SunTzuWarmaster:

"When I DM, the players do not always win. I tell them this upfront, and I expect them to understand that the world is a harsh place."

That's good, but I think you're the exception rather than the rule. Furthermore, when you run a game by the book, Like say, any d20 game, the characters are pretty much guaranteed to die at some point in the narrative simply because they are exposed to a high amount of 'chance matters' survival checks (save or dies, attack rolls from monsters, traps, etc).

"You have to be freaking kidding me. Let's play a system where our actions have no consequences AND we get to time travel in the storyline. Yea, good fix.You have to be freaking kidding me. Let's play a system where our actions have no consequences AND we get to time travel in the storyline. Yea, good fix."

Why wouldn't actions have consequence? Many important choices the players make would be permanent, such as choosing whether to save the Lord of the River or the Archmage's brother instead. What it would prevent is for one battle that goes badly from spoiling the whole narrative. Instead, the group notes down the loss, restarts and tries again. This also has the benefit of allowing noobish groups to learn the tactical implications of the ruleset they are using. I agree though that this is probably not an attractive solution to most people, but I much prefer it to random character death which doesn't matter (either by resurrection or by deus ex machina).

Which brings us to:

"Also, death is not the end of a player character."

That's a campaign-specific consideration. In many games, death = the end. I'm not talking solely about fantasy roleplaying.

K said:

"I've always been of the opinion that characters should just be assumed to be immortal (and in a world of Raise Dead, a real afterlife, and meddlesome gods, this is reasonable). "

Again, that's a campaign-specific consideration, but in principle, I agree with what you are saying. Ideally, the game allows for player failure to continue the narrative in an alternate direction. I have no problems with that. My main problem is that most rules assume PC mortality, unlike your style of play, which assumes PC immortality.

sigma999 said:
" That's no rant, that's a well-thought essay."

Kind of. Anything I post late at night when I'm exhausted immediately gets the 'rant' label, because I may not have posted it when I was in a more lucid state of mind. At any rate, thanks for the 'well-thought out' part.
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Re: The Problem with RPGs (Long Rant)

Post by rapanui »

RandomCasualty:

That's a pretty good fix... going the "FF way" where characters are simply 'taken out' in combat but do not permanently die in the combat minigame. The only problem I can see with that scenario is that TPKs still end the narrative, and that it takes some of the bite out of the threat of death. However, I don't think there's any way around the second consideration if you want to create a system that prevent random death and maintains narrative, so, yeah, it's probably an excellent solution.
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Re: The Problem with RPGs (Long Rant)

Post by SunTzuWarmaster »

"2. Introduce “Saving” into the pen and paper world. It’s already done in computer games. The idea would that before every dangerous encounter, the GM records a faithful record of the game status, and if the any characters die, or fail to achieve their goal, the game is restarted from the save point. A written record can be kept of how many places the team failed."

This is a world where actions have no consequences. You can strap dynamite to yourself and try to bluff your way past the guard. Oh, didn't work? Go back to the save point. Let's see, have we tried killing the guards? Oh, that pisses off the king, back to the save point. Hmm, sneaking in another way? Oh, that didn't work, back to the save point.

If you EVER go back to the save point, the actions that you took had no consequence. Also, you get to try to solve the same problem again with more information (a different problem). I don't see how this "saves the story" instead of creating a suspension of disbelief and lack of action consequence.
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Re: The Problem with RPGs (Long Rant)

Post by rapanui »

Well, I was thinking more about 'saving' before climactic showdowns where rolls could go awry, but I see your point. A few solutions could be:

- restrict the number of saves
- restrict the places that one can save
- make a save 'overwrite' a previous save, so that the PCs can't establish a series of checkpoints

I'll grant it still lends itself to abuse though, and is probably unnecessary if you've got a system like the one RC proposed.

To clarify, I've never actually used anything like it my games. Mostly I just do the "the PCs are immortal" assumption, which is pretty much the de facto system when a you use the Fate system (thanks to the Fate points).
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Re: The Problem with RPGs (Long Rant)

Post by SphereOfFeetMan »

rapanui:

Draco Argentum and RC hit a lot of good points, so I’ll try to explicate your assumptions. In regard to the narrative you are defining it like a book. To put it another way, you are trying to tell a predetermined story by forcing the rules, the random elements (dice), and even the role-playing to accommodate to your narrative wishes. You then are ignoring (fudging) the rules, and then calling them insufficient.

Others, myself included, don’t like trying to tell a predetermined story, and subsequently be forced to ignore the rules/dice/roleplaying. The alternative is to have a rules set you find acceptable, and to let tactical skill, the dice, and roleplaying create the story together as you go along. The ups and downs of the dice in different situations creates new stories, and forces new tactical challenges and role-playing. In this play-style the desire for “human fulfillment and philosophical content…test for tactical skill” is met.

Now you are probably thinking of your example of “getting turned to stone on a bad save may not be exactly what they had in mind for their heroic character.” That is a valid concern. There are two responses to this situation. Firstly, it might actually be what they had in mind for their heroic character. Sacrifice, to die heroically, is not a horrible outcome in many instances to many players. That brings us to what is probably your main concern, a random unheroic death. This is a case where, as I stated earlier, you need a rules set you find personally acceptable. RC’s solution is one.

This touches on one of Frank’s essays where he states that different games, different stories, require different rules.

K wrote:Ideally, every adventure, successful or not, means a meaningful change that players can relate to and emotionally invest in.


This is important. In addition to my point about a predetermined story, it sounds as if you personally haven’t found or used rules that help you tell the story that you want.

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Re: The Problem with RPGs (Long Rant)

Post by rapanui »

Sphere said:
"In regard to the narrative you are defining it like a book. To put it another way, you are trying to tell a predetermined story by forcing the rules, the random elements (dice), and even the role-playing to accommodate to your narrative wishes. You then are ignoring (fudging) the rules, and then calling them insufficient."


I never fudge the rules. Others do. All the time. That was part of my problem back when I DMed D&D: I ran the rules like a computer. Failed your save? Too bad. The books sucker you into thinking you can run the game this way.

And that's my main point. The vast number of rules presented in an RPG are completely unnecessary as most groups ALREADY disregard them completely when it is convenient to do so.

Also, I'm not trying to force any narrative. If anything, when I run a game, I try as much as possible to let the PCs dictate the narrative through their actions and choices.

Sphere said:
"it sounds as if you personally haven’t found or used rules that help you tell the story that you want."

No, I'm happy with the ruleset I'm using for the game I'm running right now, mostly because I have pretty much told the players: I'm not going to kill you. You have FATE points to save your characters from death when you want, and you can also use them to change the narrative. Basically, aside from a few rolls to add excitement to the game, there is virtually no tactical skill testing going on. I draw battle maps, sure, and there are circumstantial modifiers to attack and defense rolls, but at no point are the protagonists actually going to be devoured by zombies. And this has been stated ahead of time so that all the players are on the same page.

The entire purpose of the rant is to address an underlying flaw in most rules systems: they do not properly address the purpose of the game. Note how everyone in this thread has a different conception of how an RPG is ideally supposed to be run. These disagreements come from the inherent ambiguity of what the hell the game is supposed to be about.

Story or tactics? Chance or logic? All of the above depending on situation? How do you adjudicate that?
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Re: The Problem with RPGs (Long Rant)

Post by rapanui »

To make this discussion easier, I will try and boil it down to bullet point form.

1. In a war game, pieces (characters) do not matter beyond being there to achieve victory. This is skill-testing.

2. In a book or novel, there is no skill testing, and characters fates matter to the point where authors do not use dice to write their books. Dadaist poetry aside.

3. An RPG tries to combine elements of narrative-creation with wargaming.

4. RPGs thus have complex rules like wargames do, including rules that imply protagonist death a certain percentage of the time.

5. Therefore there is an inherent contradiction in most RPGs (like say, D&D) between constructing a narrative and skill-testing tactical ability.


Main objections seem to be:
- Skill-testing doesn't have to involve protagonist death.

This is probably the strongest objection, but most RPG systems do not embrace this solution. We'll call it the RC-FF solution.

- RPGs are not about telling a predetermined story.

I'll call this the Sphere objection, and it's true. However, while no set story needs to be told, there are certain player expectations that are brought to the table about what their characters will do before the end of the campaign. Survival is one of the most basic ones, and even when a player intends for their character to die, they usually don't intend for it to be from a random roll.


Is this more or less what it's boiling down to right now? Or am I missing something?
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Re: The Problem with RPGs (Long Rant)

Post by SphereOfFeetMan »

rapanui:

I don’t seem to be getting my point across…How should I put this?


rapanui wrote:The books sucker you into thinking you can run the game this way.


My point is you can.


rapanui wrote:And that's my main point. The vast number of rules presented in an RPG are completely unnecessary as most groups ALREADY disregard them completely when it is convenient to do so.


I have no idea if “most groups” disregard a “vast number of rules.” From personal experience, I don’t find this to be the case.

rapanui wrote:Basically, aside from a few rolls to add excitement to the game, there is virtually no tactical skill testing going on. I draw battle maps, sure, and there are circumstantial modifiers to attack and defense rolls, but at no point are the protagonists actually going to be devoured by zombies. And this has been stated ahead of time so that all the players are on the same page.

The entire purpose of the rant is to address an underlying flaw in most rules systems: they do not properly address the purpose of the game.


I don’t know what you mean by this.


rapanui wrote:Story or tactics? Chance or logic?


Both. Both.
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Re: The Problem with RPGs (Long Rant)

Post by Crissa »

Protip:

Don't write the narrative until the dice have fallen.

-Crissa

PS: Sphere of feet dude, please don't use font-specific codes on a forum. It's kinda rude. As such, I can't read your punctuation, because I have no way of knowing what font you're using.

Try making your text UTF-8 compatible before uploading. Or I'll start replying to you in Shift-JIS.
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Re: The Problem with RPGs (Long Rant)

Post by SphereOfFeetMan »

rapanui:

rapanui wrote:5. Therefore there is an inherent contradiction in most RPGs (like say, D&D) between constructing a narrative and skill-testing tactical ability.


Not necessarily. Some groups tell stories were character death is a part of the story.

rapanui wrote:there are certain player expectations that are brought to the table about what their characters will do before the end of the campaign. Survival is one of the most basic ones


Not true for everyone.

rapanui wrote:and even when a player intends for their character to die, they usually don't intend for it to be from a random roll


Since all rolls are random, I take it you mean an arbitrary, insignificant roll. If the rules of the game you use don't cause what you consider to be insignificant deaths, then it isn't a problem.
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Re: The Problem with RPGs (Long Rant)

Post by CatharzGodfoot »

If you're unwilling to play in a game where sad things happen, by all means make and RPG where they don't (or give up RPGs entirely). If you abhor any randomness or chance of things going against your plans, write stories instead of cooperatively story telling.

There are a lot of things I like about P&P role playing games. One is the uncertainty. Uncertainty is the spice of life, and of gaming too. It holds a vital role in helping to settle plot line disputes between players. If you know that Aeris is going to die ahead of time, it's annoying rather than a tragic (hence "Aeris dies").

One of the problems with being a writer is that you can't enjoy your story as a reader; it all seems deterministic. In an RPG, the randomness is enforced and you can listen and tell the story at the same time. Things are more predetermined for the DM, but as a DM you can still be surprised.

Major characters in stories sometimes come to bad ends without completing their goals. Usually this furthers the story.
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Re: The Problem with RPGs (Long Rant)

Post by rapanui »

Sphere said:

"My point is you can."

No, you cannot. Besides the amazing amount of stupidly broken shit (and I've been disregarding that for the duration of this argument) running the game by the book would result in a narrative that goes something like this:

Players 1 to 4 generate characters. Every few game sessions, one of the players fails a saving throw and has to replace his character. A little less often, but still fairly often, the entire party gets killed while facing a challenge that according to the rules is level appropriate (but actually isn't).

This crap breaks the narrative up into small chunks of disposable characters slowly kinda getting somewhere, but few or no character are able to survive from start to finish of the campaign. That's not a narrative of any kind, that's just plain stupid. It's not heroic storytelling, it's just wargaming with some BS pretense in the background.

"I have no idea if “most groups” disregard a “vast number of rules.” From personal experience, I don’t find this to be the case."

They do. I see it all the time. GMs often rule off-the-cuff in order to keep the game running and cool shit happening. I am not making this comment based on an isolated incident, just go and read the WotC forum about campaign stories and the like. (If you want your eyes to bleed that is.)

"I don’t know what you mean by this."

Why are you RPGing? Is it for the sake of your character, or the sake of showing off how awesome you are at coming up with good plans and tactics? Both? You cannot have both. The latter implies a broken choppy narrative punctuated by character death. The former implies that skill-testing takes a back seat.

Crissa said:
"Protip: Don't write the narrative until the dice have fallen."

I don't (I don't know how I can emphasize this any further)! But a narrative that consists of character A died on failed saving throw. Replaced by character B. B died, resurrected, died again. Resurrected, died again, retired by player, replaced by C. C devoured by Bhargest, replaced by D... ect.

That's just not a good narrative in any sense.

Sphere said:

"Not necessarily. Some groups tell stories were character death is a part of the story."

SOME groups, sure. I'd wager that's the exception rather than the rule. In general, I don't think people roll up their characters to be monster fodder.

"Not true for everyone."

True for most people. Part of developing a character is allowing that character to live to see new situations.

"Since all rolls are random, I take it you mean an arbitrary, insignificant roll."

Correct, that's what I meant.

"If the rules of the game you use don't cause what you consider to be insignificant deaths, then it isn't a problem."

Again, most games use rules that do encourage insignificant deaths. D&D is a prime (but certainly not unique) example, with level-appropriate encounters (that are supposed to tax the party 25%) often resulting in multiple fatalities. At high level, rocket launcher tag pretty much guarantees your death is not epic, but kinda just part of your daily routine. Die get rezzed. Die get rezzed. Die get rezzed.


CatharzGodfoot said:
"If you're unwilling to play in a game where sad things happen, by all means make and RPG where they don't (or give up RPGs entirely). If you abhor any randomness or chance of things going against your plans, write stories instead of cooperatively story telling."

First of all, I usually GM, so I'm not the one that has to worry about 'sad things happening'. Part of my point is that RPGs ARE NOT cooperative storytelling, mainly because they present a facade of skill-testing, where cooperative storytelling is put in the background. Or, sometimes they are cooperative story-telling but when the group implicitly or explicitly agrees to fudge the rules for the sake of the narrative. That's why there's a GM screen: so that the GM doesn't have to show the player the rolls that would auto-kill one of their characters.

Again: my main point is that there is sometimes a disagreement amongst players when they sit down to game. I'm not saying YOUR game is flawed, or that the way Sphere games is flawed. I'm saying that occasionally 4 nerds sit down to game with completely separate expectations about what is going to happen.

Nerd 1 and 2 think the main gist is to make sure their characters rock the house and kill stuff efficiently, Nerd 3 and 4 think it's going to be mostly about storytelling and that the GM will save their characters ass solely to promote the narrative. That's where stealth-nerfing comes from, that's where the Oberoni fallacy comes from.


Sorry if I'm starting to sound defensive, but I'm kinda getting the feeling here that you guys think I'm insulting the way you game. That's not the case. I'm simply making general points about the deeper root problems where most RPG issues come from.




EDIT: Off-topic a bit... I'm not using the proper quote function because I like "quick reply" form at the bottom. However, if it will make the thread more readable I can use it from now on.
Jacob_Orlove
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Re: The Problem with RPGs (Long Rant)

Post by Jacob_Orlove »

So, you run a game where the characters die often, and then complain when the characters die often? :confused:
rapanui
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Re: The Problem with RPGs (Long Rant)

Post by rapanui »

*smack forehead*

Rapa-Nui wrote several posts ago:
"No, I'm happy with the ruleset I'm using for the game I'm running right now, mostly because I have pretty much told the players: I'm not going to kill you. You have FATE points to save your characters from death when you want, and you can also use them to change the narrative. Basically, aside from a few rolls to add excitement to the game, there is virtually no tactical skill testing going on. I draw battle maps, sure, and there are circumstantial modifiers to attack and defense rolls, but at no point are the protagonists actually going to be devoured by zombies. And this has been stated ahead of time so that all the players are on the same page."

*smacks forehead again*
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Crissa
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Re: The Problem with RPGs (Long Rant)

Post by Crissa »

Wow, you don't like a narrative where the character dies.

But what good is a narrative if the character had no chance of dying in the first place?

That's not a game. There's a game involved. And games involve sometimes losing.

Then again, you're also complaining that Wedge died at some point in the storyline. Well, he did, it sucks, but his story ended there. Did the campaign against the Empire fail because he died? No. Did the campaign get forwarded because of his life? Read the frickin' comics.

If you want stories where no one dies, don't play a game to get those stories.

-Crissa
Jacob_Orlove
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Re: The Problem with RPGs (Long Rant)

Post by Jacob_Orlove »

Rapanui, I know that you're fine with your current game, but that's not the game we're talking about. You're complaining about your experiences with previous RPGs that you have played, and those are the ones I was referring to.

For reference:
rapanui at [unixtime wrote:1202089412[/unixtime]]First of all, I usually GM


and


I don't (I don't know how I can emphasize this any further)! But a narrative that consists of character A died on failed saving throw. Replaced by character B. B died, resurrected, died again. Resurrected, died again, retired by player, replaced by C. C devoured by Bhargest, replaced by D... ect.

That's just not a good narrative in any sense.


If the players *in your game* are dying left and right, it's possible that the problem is not the fundamental structure of RPGs in general.
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