Five Senses

[The_Hanged_Man]

Huh. I read him exactly the opposite, he's saying Dog Fu is it. You can attack w/ natural weapons, but not iteratively.

[Username17]

Huh. I read him exactly the opposite, he's saying Dog Fu is it. You can attack w/ natural weapons, but not iteratively.

For some of it, he is. But he also says that you can use the Octopus' normal attack modes - which is Octopus Fu.

But he also says that you can use the Wolf's natural weapons at your normal attack routine - which is Dog Fu.

And so on and so on and round and round. We can have this argument all frickin day because this has been an unaswered question for over four years.

-Username17

[The_Hanged_Man]

But he says you can't "combine" them. IF that doesn't mean you can't use natural attacks iteratively, what does it mean?

[Username17]

1084942899[/unixtime]]But he says you can't "combine" them. IF that doesn't mean you can't use natural attacks iteratively, what does it mean?

It could just as easily mean, for example, that you can't use iterative attacks on your Lizard Bite while still claiming secondary natural attacks from your claws.

And if you are arguing for Dog Fu - that's exactly what it does mean.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

1084942079[/unixtime]]
But he also says that you can use the Wolf's natural weapons at your normal attack routine - which is Dog Fu.

I never saw any evidence of this in 3.5 at all.

Where are you getting that from?

[Username17]

Physical qualities also include natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth).

So you get the natural weapons and can use them.

You can make attacks that are "normal" for you or normal for your assumed form, but you can't combine them.

So you can use them with your original attack routine.

It's totally defensible either way. And Custserv has ruled it both ways when asked specifically because different pieces of text support different conclusions when looked at from different points of view.

-Username17

[Username17]

Part 3 is out!

Joy.

The subject also temporarily gains the augmented subtype for its original type. The subject loses any subtypes it has in favor of the assumed form's subtypes. For example, a human turned into a troll gains the giant type and the augmented humanoid subtype.

As I feared. Indeed, you are still subject to charm person when you wildshape, it's just that you can cast nature's favor on yourself as well. How is this an improvement on the old rules?

You get the following:

-- Proficient with the form's natural weapons. If generally humanoid in form, proficient with all simple weapons and any weapon the form is described as using.

What? You get weapon proficiencies? What the hell for?

You get the following:

-- Immunity to acid, cold, and petrification. (Immunity is a natural ability.)
...
You don't get the following:

-- Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision. (Extraordinary special quality.)

-- Resistance to electricity 10 and fire 10. (Extraordinary special quality.)

OK, Immunity is an extraordinary special quality as well. What the fuck? Is he completely pulling things out of his ass? Why the hell should you get Immunity to Cold and not Fire Resistance 10? Immunity to Cold is just Cold Resistance: Infinity, it's the same thing only bigger. This isn't even a game balance decision, it's just crazy - you get the bigger version but not the smaller version.

You don't get the following:

-- Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal). (You usually keep your Intelligence score when changing forms; the baleful polymorph spell can be an exception.)

Skip confirms - transforming into an Animal gives you the animal type, not the Magical Beast type as the rules actually state. And thus, all the druid cheese is officially legal - from Awaken to Nature's Craziness. All of it. All the time.

You get the following:

-- All goblinoids speak Goblin. (You don't suddenly speak Goblin just by changing form.)

This one stands on its own as perhaps the most confusing statement ever made about Polymorph. Which is saying a lot. I can't extract anything of meaning out of this statement.

-- Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, or by character class. If a humanoid does not have a class and wears armor, it is proficient with that type of armor and all lighter types. Humanoids not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Humanoids are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. (You don't forget what you know, but a change to humanoid form doesn't get you any armor proficiency that's not listed here.)

Interesting note: Alter Self or Polymorph into a Gnoll gives you proficiency with Light Armor, Shield, and the Battle Axe. Alter Self into a Dwarf gives you medium armor proficiency, shield proficiency, and EWP: dwarven waraxe. Not bad at all. Also note that chain polymorphing explicitly allows you to collect weapon proficiencies - since you don't forget your weapon and armor proficiencies when taking a new form but can gain new ones.

Nonsensical, but opens up some really strange min/max possibilities.

You get the following:

-- These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane (hence the subtype's name). (Natural ability, not that you're likely to need it.)

Weird note: you can ressurect any outsider with an 8th level spell. Transform your dead Efreet into a dead tiefling, they gain the native subtype which grants them the ability to be raised after they are dead - now raise them, and dispel the PAO. The raise effect is instantaneous and can't turn off just because it wouldn't have been legal.

Anyone else think that allowing Polymorph effects to grant abilities that only function after you are dead is a terrible plan?

You get the following:

-- Blind, with immunity to gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions, and other attack forms that rely on sight. (Natural ability.)
...
You don't get the following:

-- Blindsight (Extraordinary special quality.)

That's funny as shit. What happened to those five senses?

You can't become a swarm by changing form.

Interesting, and much more balanced than the alternative. But on what grounds? There's no justification for this rules change, just like there's no justification given for any of these other rules changes.

Unlike previous versions of the D&D game, the subject's hit points change according to his new Constitution score.

This actually is a clarification, as it is what the 3.5 rules say.

If the subject has a prestige class that depends on an unusable feat, the subject cannot use any features of the class but retains any Hit Dice, base attack, and base save bonuses from the class and also retains weapon and armor proficiencies from the class.

Excuse me? That's a 3rd edition rule - it's not in the 3.5 DMG, and I don't know why he would go out and attempt to put it back in the middle of a discussion of Polymorph. Skip's attempts at stealth revisions annoy the crap out of me.

As noted in Part One, extraordinary special attacks or qualities from class levels are primarily a function of the mind.
...
Also as noted in Part One, extraordinary special attacks and qualities are assumed to be largely a function of the body.
...
As noted in Part One, extraordinary special attacks derive largely from the physical body, while extraordinary special qualities prove more subtle.

Why does the bullshitometer go all crazy when this man talks?

The subject cannot take the form of any creature with a template, just as with the alter self spell.

Note that unlike the previous or subsequent statement, this is not actually from the spell description, this is from Skip's ass. The template restriction is given no more weight than the restriction that you can't become more than one size larger. So obviously Skip must be saying that those restrictions carry over, right?

The assumed form's size can be anything from Fine to Colossal.

Guess not.

In general, a change from one form that has a humanoid shape to another form that has a humanoid shape leaves all equipment in place and functioning. The subject's equipment changes to match the assumed form. It becomes the appropriate size for the assumed form and it fits the assumed form. The spellcaster can change minor details in your equipment, such as color, surface texture, and decoration.

Wow, the 3rd edition rules keep rolling in. Good news everyone, you can go back to transforming into Firbolgs with all of your equipment carrying over, because Skip said so!

Some items can fit on just about any kind of body. For example, a ring fits just about any form that has digits of some kind (the limit of two rings applies no matter how many hands or similar appendages a creature has). Likewise, a necklace fits on just about any form that has a neck.

Good news, druids. You actually get to keep all of your equipment when transforming into wolves and bears. No more dropping crap into a pile!

I can hardly wait for part IV, in which he will start talking about Shapechange and Polymorph Any Object. Since his rants have led us this far into crazy town, why not go the whole damn way?

-Username17

[User3]

I like how Incorporeal creatures become real boys when Polymorphed(Transdimensional spell).

[RandomCasualty]

Skip is a moron.

Apparently if you transform into an ooze or vermin, you don't gain immunity to mind affecting effects, but if you turn into a plant you do.

Alignment: Always neutral. (You usually keep your alignment when changing forms; the baleful polymorph spell can be an exception.)

Apparently, baleful polymorphing a paladin into an animal now causes him to require atonement.

Also, polymorphing into a giant makes you proficient with armor and weapons... weird.

Extraplanar Subtype

You gain this subtype when changing form only when the form you assume would have it. The subtype has no traits, but certain spells and other magical effects work in special ways against extraplanar creatures.

This seems to imply that you gain the home plane of whatever you polymorph into.

[Crissa]

...You guys were supposed to make sense of that man's writing.

This is so totally not fair. I really have no idea what he's saying.

-Crissa

[Username17]

On the unbearable sadness of hit dice:

Skip Williams says that all references to hit dice refer to "racial hit dice" - which is interesting, as it means that noone can transform into anything because you probably don't have any racial hit dice. Taking a more lenient view of his statements and only interpretting them to be saying that "hit dice" means "racial hit dice" only when he specifically says it does and "total hit dice" the rest of the time, we are left with the following interesting implications:

* The Hound Archon Paladin from the 3.5 Monster Manual is a valid choice for Polymorph, and a Lesser Tiefling can be transformed into it. Look at all the special attacks and natural abilitiies it has!

* When you transform into a creature which has an ability with a save DC, that DC is recalculated by racial hit dice - and since you don't actually get any racial hit dice out of the deal - your save DC is 10 + Stat Modifier, total.

Um... that's retarded.

-Username17

[User3]

(Rapa posting... too lazy to log in)

Skip has to be screwing with us. He has to be. He has been told by his superiors to rescue the unrescuable, and having no choice on the matter has resorted to creating an even bigger mess. This will eventually precipitate a polymorph crisis, leding to an official ban, or Something Completely Different.

Then again, maybe I'm overestimating him. Maybe he really is this stupid.

[MrWaeseL]

Yeah, I think we won't be seeing much polymorph in any upcoming editions with the amount of crap this generates.

[Username17]

Part four is out.


I'm so happy. It still talks about Water to Dust!

Which means that he hasn't even combed this over for bonehead mistakes from nearly five years ago.

Shudder. The stupidity hurts me. And while he extemporized a no-template limitation into Polymorph that wasn't there, he didn't extemporize one into Baleful Polymorph, so the paragon hawks cheat is still there.

-Username17