"Where D&D failed" or "How D&D lost its D&D" (no Prak/Kaeli)

[virgil]

I started on AD&D, moved to 2E, then checked out 3E; and it was certainly an improvement.

I wouldn't add random people to a chat program I have for ANY reason

In light of your "friends are for the 1%" stance, that just sounds like you refuse to make friends to game with.

[nockermensch]

I will mention that I was one of those people who did not like second edition very much, but came back to D&D when 3rd came out. And I mostly liked it.

We played second edition with all the cheese it had. Even before Skills and Powers, it had the Master Race Handbook, weapon specialization, katanas, teenagers (iirc, if your character was a "teen" you got an extra +1 con, with no downsides people cared about) and more.

I wonder if Shadzar properly remember how hardcore the character building could get there. In fact, my first online forays were after AD&D cheese. (Alpha's spellbooks, netbooks of *, etc).

[RobbyPants]

I still maintain that Shadzar's trolling. When he first arrived here, he was grammatical and less rambly. An asshole, but a coherent one.

Go check his earliest posts if you want to form your own opinion.

This reminds me of how PR stopped using the shift key, barring two exceptions. I'm not saying that Shad is PR's weird, pro-2E sock puppet, but the behavior is similar.

[shadzar]

I wonder if Shadzar properly remember how hardcore the character building could get there.

i didnt play with everything form every fucking splatbook, because that was stupid. there is a reason they are called OPTIONAL, and i optioned not to try to use everything because i didnt need it. as DM i have all the brown books because that gives plenty of plot hooks and magic items to add (only got 2 wizards spell compendiums none for priests or magic items)

as a player i used the Race splatbooks....for the character sheets with racial and class abilities already present on them.

i wouldnt play in a game that tried to use too much. you calling it "cheese" just instantly puts you into my mind as a Munchkin.

i know i have said this in the past, but players (on both sides of the screen) need to learn restraint about what to use from those books, and BUYING the book shouldnt give any sort of right to being able to use that nonsense in EVERY game you play. it doesnt always work, and some of it NEVER worked.

but it isn't 2nd edition either, it is optional and those who didn't know then, know now why it didn't work... LW didn't believe in playtesting. not that playtesting ever matters when you go so far beyond the "core" as DMs will have already changed the core for their game, they will have to change everything else beyond the way it was tested anyway.

do YOU remember playing with little to nothing and having elf as a class? a simple game with only what it needs to be played?

seriously look at the editions.

BD&D: Basic D&D a simple game with the least neede3d to let you play.
AD&D: More rules to do some things (elf not as a class but a race is fun!) you couldn't before.

3rd: this goes beyond Advanced. there is no simple game to play, and it REQUIRES rules mastery. D&D shouldnt be chess. i dont agree with "beer & pretzels" games because well that isnt playing D&D just trying to have a drinking game, but the game should be simple enough for a simple mind of a drunk to play, and WotC does not offer that.

Original was a minis wargame, no matter how you look at it it still was. it had the precursor of an RPG in there, but was still closer to a board game (Hero Quest emulates OD&D very well). AD&D went to make more thing possible without being too much. i think it was still too much in places. 2nd cleaned those up a bit. BD&D tried to make OD&D into a full RPG without the heavy wargame and board game feel. Holmes did a good job, i just still don't like his attitude, finally Mentzer went to adding too much stuff with Immortals. Well Immortals made it a whole new game so discount it and BECM had a good bit, but not enough for some. thee need to be an in-between of BD&D and AD&D.

3rd edition is jsut the Rules-Lawyers-Wet-Dream edition or the DMs-nightmare edition. that is not a good thing on either account.

seriously how many cohesive games that lasted long term we had with using every splatbook that could be found in ANY edition? again i am reminded of Punpun an example of how using all splatbooks could go wrong! as well a the obvious mental exercise but Punpun is also a Munchkin character. the term from earlier editions that meant a player trying to go through every book and powergame. ergo why DM approval was needed by people with common sense.

i wouldnt mind a game with the ideas of GURPs and PO:S&P, i just dont like it for D&D. i dont play future or modern era RPGs either because well too much shit is just tech+magic, ergo i use Warhammer 40k for that or DDM with its tech+magic from eBerron, or Mage Knight with its steampunk+magic cause i dont give a damn about the character, they are only playing pieces with statblocks. RIFTs GURPs not my style, so D&D is my RPG and i like it what close to medieval fantasy it can be, NOT kitchen sink fantasy. people can have Planescape all they want, but leave it out of D&D, let it, like those splatbooks, be options for ones that want it. I, with common sense, will avoid using everything as it doesn't all fit together.

[Leress]

seriously how many cohesive games that lasted long term we had with using every splatbook that could be found in ANY edition? again i am reminded of Punpun an example of how using all splatbooks could go wrong! as well a the obvious mental exercise but Punpun is also a Munchkin character. the term from earlier editions that meant a player trying to go through every book and powergame. ergo why DM approval was needed by people with common sense.

Stop using the Pun-Pun example it doesn't help your argument. It was "created" using two splat books. Also Pun-Pun doesn't even work.

[shadzar]

seriously how many cohesive games that lasted long term we had with using every splatbook that could be found in ANY edition? again i am reminded of Punpun an example of how using all splatbooks could go wrong! as well a the obvious mental exercise but Punpun is also a Munchkin character. the term from earlier editions that meant a player trying to go through every book and powergame. ergo why DM approval was needed by people with common sense.

Stop using the Pun-Pun example it doesn't help your argument. It was "created" using two splat books. Also Pun-Pun doesn't even work.

except that those Munchkin players that think it does and try to emulate it where all the god power whatever stuff was added to it. there was soething about a god-like squirrel compainion or something for it? hell i dont know WotC forums are pretty unsearchable now to find it since they fucked em up moving to GLEEMAX then to ONESITE and altering them so that even basic functions do some weird shit where they always have some "windows-CE-exception" and i doubt anyone at WotC uses the defunct Windows CE OS that was made 20 years ago for handheld "computers" similar to PDAs.

[Aryxbez]

For what its worth, I am also in a bible-belt area, and seems fair amount of folk played D&D in the past.

AD&D has NO online SRD for people to play from. there is finite access to the rules system of editions of D&D prior to 3.0.

What I find confusing here, is how always spouts about only needing a name + blank paper, yet in another post he mentions as a player the use of racial/class.....ABILITIES?!?!? That sounds downright contradictory right there, by his accordance, if all his players only need the above (no books), then it should be the easiest thing in the world to get other players to play. Since they won't have the books they apparently NEVER NEED, and Shadzar would probably prefer he has all of them to reference FOR THEM, then I'm unsure how this doesn't work out finding a game, other than him making piddly excuses within his logic?

Shad is... just loopy.

This is very much true, years past when I started reading on here, he would make excuses to ignore posts that he couldn't defend by saying how he needs his meds + sleep, or some sort. Thusly his inconsistent behavior can be explained by how medicated he is at the moment (or lack thereof).

Oh, and as for Pun-Pun, nobody actually tries to play that. Your insistence that people do, kinda shows how out of touch must be with actual types of RPG players, its culture and so on. The idea ye can profess a "True D&D", makes ye all the more less credible when ye can't even keep your own stories straight (funny, like a "bible thumper" you oh so like to hate on)

[shadzar]

What I find confusing here, is how always spouts about only needing a name + blank paper, yet in another post he mentions as a player the use of racial/class.....ABILITIES?!?!? That sounds downright contradictory right there, by his accordance, if all his players only need the above (no books), then it should be the easiest thing in the world to get other players to play.

you are mistaking things. i never said ONLY need, but you CAN play that way.

i wouldnt touch any online chat thing like google to save my life, but even in PbP it is good for people to own the core books, and those people to be able to be trusted NOT to meta game. it is a much more needing way to play for trust so that you dont have to copy paste everything. i cant really hand a Wizard Spell Card for Otiluke's Irresistable Dance to someone online now can i? cant hand them the Magic Item card for Deck of Many Things either, since it is not possible being.. ONLINE.

also the majority of people in my area masturbate to 3rd as WotC minions and NEVER attempted to play anything prior because it just wasnt available to the masses. they need books to start over with and read to see what the game is about in the case of things i have mentioned before... "with each new edition things are left out assuming that players have progressed through the various editions as stages in their gaming life and no longer need the info presented to beginners as the edition progress, so designers mostly stopped writing them." aka, the designers take for granted that they have been playing a long time, and fail to see that new players, which they want, don't have the background of the game that they do. add to this the lies presented by WotC and even modern D&D players about older editions...only the actual books can disprove those lies, and i wont hand them out to every Tom Dick and Harry to destroy. they are stain free after all this time and only one has a split spine, and i intend to keep them that way for as long as i live. people just have no respect when you live in the land of CCGers for such things as books, or manuals etc. i recall one store having to replace a board game after one use when the players shredded the board, and they werent even made to pay for it. yeah.. not really people i would want to play with there....

[Stinktopus]

i wouldnt touch any online chat thing like google to save my life,

Doesn't... use... Google...

[tussock]

Shadzar, you being extraordinarily picky about avoiding being in Dungeons & Dragons games with people is not D&D's fault. It's not WotC's fault. Not Hasbro. Not these boards. It's just you.

There's even a whole bunch of games running whatever flavour of oldschool you want, and you're scared of learning how to join in. That's fine too, change can be scary, but there's people's grandmothers using that shit, it's not hard, you just don't want to do it. And that's on you.

Even if you only want to play in meatspace, and the only things on offer near you are 3e, you don't need to master 3e to play it. Not even read the fucking thing. It's fine, 90% of the players haven't got a clue and never will. You can write Wizard 5 on a character sheet with some spells and join in, or ask the DM to pick some shit for you (so you can play a dual-scimitar Drow that you invented before it was cool, or whatever), or pick something off the internet that's ready to go, and play it without using any of the options like it's a 1st edition character. They still work. It's all fine. Cast fireball, the monsters have hit points and saves, go nuts.

DMs will secretly respond to how able your characters are with increased or decreased challenges, like they always have, because they like having players. Hell, from what I read there's huge numbers of DMs never understood the whole balanced encounter thing in the first place and have to just fudge everything as a result. Same as every edition.

If you want to DM no-option no-fudging 2nd edition (which is a pretty good RPG), offer it up to folk, preferably to people you have not sneered at for being culturally inferior and credulous morons in the last five minutes. DMs are usually in short supply compared to players, and you can pretty much run what you want, if you're not an impossible ass about it, or creepy stalker-guy, or worse.


And if you can't talk to people face to face or on the internet, then I would politely suggest you reinstall Baldur's Gate I & II and download a new set of adventures for them, because there are probably more of them than you can ever hope to play and so it's 2nd edition hardcore no-reloads for the rest of your life right there if you want it.

[shadzar]

Shadzar, you being extraordinarily picky about avoiding being in Dungeons & Dragons games with people is not D&D's fault. It's not WotC's fault. Not Hasbro. Not these boards. It's just you.

look dumbass, go search the WotC forums to see EXACTLY why it has been cited as being WotC fault for lack of support of older editions which continues to be done with the new Encounters NOT offering support for any edition that is not a sole WotC creation.

it is WotC's fault, and i am sure to a larger extent HASBRO's decision. just look at the way they have done with D&D, they placed Greg Leeds as "CEO"...an account running a whole company? HASBRO is controlling WotC plain and simple and THEIR methodology is what drives it.

they dont want people to have access to older editions and in light of the OSR movement by SOME, they don't want to give more people over to it by helping them by providing books. as mentioned the PDF sales site has lots of splats and such that could be used for 3.x, 4/E and DDN games, but offeres no core books such as PHB, DMG, MM for those older editions.

they are purposefully impeding people from being able to play those outside of limited access to the new limited run reprints, yet EVERY Mom & Pop store and even some big box stores will carry DDN. This is odd behavior when HASBRO has TV commercials advertising "our line of Scrabble products", or "our line of Monopoly products: board games, card games, and phone apps!111!"

they actually fear older editions in such much a many has said that they just work better, and people ARE learning that. the lack of system mastery requirements, the way monsters are slammed in every form WotC has presented them and 2nd MM held as the best thing there is, the older games inspire play, while the newer games inspire competition or someone trying to play a storytelling tool. neither of which is what D&D is for.

they just don't want to acknowledge a playstyle that:

a) they don't understand with James Wyatt being a munchkin powergamer, and the lieks of Mearls that couldn't DM his way out of a paper bag.

b) is less competitive because it means those people wont be making character builds, which means obscure books will sell less unless they have some sort of powercreep specifically added to make people want to buy this book and then use the "4th edition everything is core, so say YES" to keep those people buying more books.

c) lets the players own their own game rather than be watched by Sauron atop his WotC designers looking down from their Ivory Tower.

it is the same stink from WotC that was from Mentzer an Gygax, but RPGA is dead, tournament D&D doesnt work, so that shit needs to die!

like mentioned elsewhere in regards to monsters and cosmology, etc... they are making things TOO specific with this hard-coded design philosophy as to where it does NOT inspire people to play, only to [insert combat opponent].

there is ONLY 2 reason i can think of that would be why WotC doesn't support older editions:

1. they fear they would be better, ergo the "competition" angel, when this did not affect TSR at all. it doesn't affect Games Workshop. it doesn't affect Microsoft. it doesn't affect Nintendo. does not affect: Monopoly, Scrabble, Yahtzee, etc. those all have similar systems on the market and do NOT fear competing with themselves. oops, did i name some HASBRO games in there some where saying HASBRO isnt afraid to own and produce product in a line that would compete with each other but are NOT intended to be used together?

2. they don't actually own the rights to TSR editions of the game because of some weird book copyright laws which gave Gary the rights to first edition since his name was all over it, Dave and Gary rights to OD&D, etc, and K&C the rights to 2nd edition due to copyright violations in the DMA. this will never be answered until someone has the balls to just come forward and say it, so it always must be speculated since we know there were numerous lawsuits surrounding EVERY edition of D&D.

in the case of 1, they should grow a pair, in the case of 2, then someone needs to come out and own up to it so people will know once and for all that DDN has NO chance of being for older players that wish a different set of rules, and playstyle than WotC can legally provide.

[Istred]

t doesn't affect Microsoft. it doesn't affect Nintendo.

And because of it Microsoft still supports and sells Windows 98 and Nintendo makes games for the Gamecube. Oh, wait...

[shadzar]

t doesn't affect Microsoft. it doesn't affect Nintendo.

And because of it Microsoft still supports and sells Windows 98 and Nintendo makes games for the Gamecube. Oh, wait...

microsoft still sells personal computer games as well as a gaming console with a selection of games. nintendo sells the Wii and whatever Gameboy clone they have out this month.

two platforms. each edition to D&D is equated to a platform, just like monopoly as a board game is one platform, and as a card game another platform.

Nintendo purposefully competes with multiple gaming consoles on the market, as does Microsoft.

[Istred]

two platforms. each edition to D&D is equated to a platform, just like monopoly as a board game is one platform, and as a card game another platform.

I think there is a subtle difference here. You have a card game a and a board game, a handheld console and something you plug to a TV, whereas all editions of D&D boil down to being the same thing. Keeping all various editions online would be far more similiar to keeping Windows 95, 98, XP, Vista, 7 and 8 all supported and sold.

[shadzar]

two platforms. each edition to D&D is equated to a platform, just like monopoly as a board game is one platform, and as a card game another platform.

I think there is a subtle difference here. You have a card game a and a board game, a handheld console and something you plug to a TV, whereas all editions of D&D boil down to being the same thing. Keeping all various editions online would be far more similiar to keeping Windows 95, 98, XP, Vista, 7 and 8 all supported and sold.

the failure in that statement which WotC itself doesn't understand is that they are not. If that were true and the case, the NO other RPG could exist outside of D&D, and they did prior to the SRD. oddly enough some specifically calling the "host" of the game a Storyteller, to denote the different type of game it intended. Yet D&D was changed to make it more like that. which prove in addition to the fact that everyone does NOT just succumb to the edition treadmill and buy every new product, that they are NOT the same thing, no matter how much you worship at the church of Rev. James Wyatt, or wish to lick the boots of Gary.

the failure in understanding what D&D is NOT, is what brings people to the conclusion that all editions are for the same purpose, because they do NOT understand why people play. not understanding why people play is why WotC is incapable of delivering a successful game. Yet Pathfinder IS successful, because it does understand why people play and is developing a game JUST for those people, rather than the ONE EDITION TO RULE ALL RPGs which WotC is trying to make, and for some naive reason thinks can exist at all.

[deaddmwalking]

There can be no arguing that 3.x didn't sell a fuck ton of books. It did. For WotC and for a whole bunch of other publishers.

I personally helped put someone's kid through college with my purchases.

I still have 2nd edition books. Even during the height of 3.x, I could have played 2nd edition. You go to a place like theRPGsite and you'll find all kinds of old-school gamers. The fact that you don't know people that play in your area of the bible belt doesn't mean they aren't there - it just means that they aren't quite as obvious about it.

But lots of popular items are not 'perennial'. When CDs were popular (after cassette tapes and before MP3s) the old back catalog of music would be released a bit at a time. After the CD pressing, a CD would go 'out of print'. There are lots of great albums that just aren't available all the time - at least not without a little work.

2nd edition (and other editions) are a lot like that. It doesn't make sense to keep releasing additional stock a little at a time. The market just isn't big enough to support the large scale releases that a company of any size needs. In a perfect world, maybe companies would release beloved products at a loss - but in fairness to the producers, they should make some profit for releasing product I enjoy. I don't want them to take a loss. So insisting that they should have continued to support an edition that was already failing before 3.x was even announced is a problem.

Now, from my experience, even most of the people still playing 2nd edition gave 3.x a good solid try. Most of them preferred it (but certainly not all). Until they had a basis in comparison, they didn't know that they wouldn't like 3.x. It had a lot going for it compared to earlier editions. Finding players would have been HARDER, but still not impossible. But trying to maintain a market for those players - that's not good business.

[Neurosis]

Dude, Shadzar, what the fuck do you know. You're not even a D&D fan anyway. Offered a chance to play some of your favorite edition, you bitched out.

Your gaming to bitching about gaming ratio is terrible for the DEN, and that's saying something.

[Prak]

Again you prove yourself a fool. I am not one of those "collectors" that has 400 copies of the PHBs to let players use all the time, nor am i rich enough to do so. also not everyone just goes on and trusts places like Amazon for used books. SOME people like stores they can see and feel the book, and in the case of D&D and books in general SMELL the book to make sure it isnt covered in food stains and rot, or just general mildew and mold from improper care.

The access to the main game isn't out there (legally) like the SRD that many people use as a PHB for 3.x. There are sites that have been linked to on here that illegally share the HTML files present on CD-ROM version of 2nd known as Core Rules 2.0, but that isn't something everyone condones.

again like above, they are NOT supporting the edition for fear that people will want it, NOT their "new shiny".

D&D editions should not be collector items like some special print edition of Trivial Pursuit or Nintendo/Star Wars Monopoly. the collector value of the originals was in PART kept by new cores for the reprints of 1st and 2nd, but also the materials used and copyright dates. THIS helps, but why do only a limited run? Why for so long did they fear PDF sales, when they had nothing to lose, and thus BROUGHT BACK older edition PDF sales?

Why can't they have print form or print-on-demand for older editions?

Shadzar, no one is restricting your access to 2nd Edition D&D books.

These are shrink wrapped and price tagged, physical reprints of the 2nd edition core books you can buy in a store.


Here is a photo of D&D reprints on a shelf in a store.

This is a store locator, which you can use to find stores in your area which sell Wizards of the Coast products. It provides you with addresses and phone numbers for stores so you can call to ask if they have books you are looking for. Having worked in a Game and Comic shop, I can tell you that they would probably be happy to order items for you. They may even be willing to have the items shipped directly to you. You can even ask if they have used copies of original 2nd edition books. Hell, you can ask them if used copies smell like mildew or spilled soda. They probably wouldn't buy books that did, but you can ask!

Unless some preacher has locked you in a basement with only access to this forum as some kind of punishment, no one is restricting your access. WotC would love to sell you the books you want.

I assume the DMA and rights issues still prevent them from really selling 1st or 2nd,

Here is the Wizards of the Coast product catalogue, showing their RPG products, sorted by series, showing that they are selling 2nd edition and AD&D and OD&D products in physical form.

have computers from 10 years ago to run them on due to incompatibility issues with anything newer than Windows XP.

here is a step by step guide to running old programs on XP and Vista. Trust me, I've done it without having to buy additional hardware or programs. At worst you need an external usb floppy drive, which is $20 at Frys. You certainly do not need to shell out $200 for the 2nd edition PHB.

AD&D has NO online SRD for people to play from. there is finite access to the rules system of editions of D&D prior to 3.0. (see above)

Only in that the number of trees on the planet are finite. If I had $100 and genuinely desired to play 2nd, I'm confident I could have a game by the end of the month.

library? i wonder if there is still one around here? i think they converted it into some kind of contemporary art museum for scrapyard trash being called art by rednecks with more cars in their yard and blowtorches than they knew what to do with the hours of the day. bars, plenty of those.. i dont drink and hate drunks. well this forum makes me need a drink every once in a while, but i still hate drunks! wouldnt play with ANYONE EVER that finds drinking a pastime.

Yes, libraries still exist. There are public libraries, and there are campus libraries at many colleges. Generally a college library isn't going to check for a student id if you're just walking in and looking/sitting around.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Are there any decent 2e retro clones out there? The two names I keep seeing described as such are For Gold and Glory, which seems to not be around anymore (if ever), and Myth and Magic, which is more a 3.lite than anything else.

[shadzar]

There can be no arguing that 3.x didn't sell a fuck ton of books. It did. For WotC and for a whole bunch of other publishers.

did it sell more than AD&D? if so, why? why isnt there a thread for this, or why isnt this type stuff there?

everyone knows of the Dancey report and the warehouse full of old edition D&D materials that were ordered but never sold.

3rd had better marketing, because unlike LW, it likes gamers. why is this still being discussed.

it does NOT prove the edition was better, only the owners of the company actually TRIED to sell 3rd edition while 2nd edition had little to no marketing, not even to mention the lack of roads with which to market things to people.

Had Amazon been around in late 80s, would 3rd exist as presented by WotC or would 2nd have lasted longer? (remember that 2nd wasnt the 2nd Gary was working on, and 3rd by WotC wasnt the 3rd TSR was working on.)

the OGL itself vs the litigation against fansites is company policy, that does not prove a superior edition, just a better selling model. there is one MAJOR reason 3rd sold, not anything based on the merits of the edition itself.

2nd edition (and other editions) are a lot like that. It doesn't make sense to keep releasing additional stock a little at a time. The market just isn't big enough to support the large scale releases that a company of any size needs.

and yet the edition treadmill continues on... WotC seems to disagree with you that the market CAN support MANY editions cause they bring a new one out every 6 months, not unlike GW and its ever changing editions of WH40k..... except they ONLY want the "new shiny" out on the market.

had WotC not made 4th, not started on DDN, 9 books. that is one of each DMG, PHB, MM. they could have combined 1st MMs. then every month for a while release the settings books for AN edition and update them for each. 3 settings books/boxes for FR, then next for DL, next RL, hell even BR for all i care. this gets people started in these worlds.... or just a single book with 3 sections. fuck every device bought now has English and Mexican sections in them in USA, and consumers keep paying for the waste paper of the language they cant use, more having the Mexican as waste than those having English.

you, like them, just cannot SEE a way to get the editions out to people. another reason why 4th had to be created was to STOP THE OGL. not only did it hurt WotC because so many people were making better products, the B&Ms couldnt hold all the damn things from 3PPs.

which brings us back to that warehouse of unsold product from TSR.. stores just didnt have room to carry everything en masse to have large stocks of the amount of things that were coming out. OGL caused that very same problem that TSR had.

also see a major reason for the port changes in iPhone 5...akin to the OGL, Apple was not making much money on accessories as other people made them better, so they wanted to be able to sell the first lot of accessories BEFORE other people could make them better. also probably why they tried to patent the design of the damn thing to try to prevent other people from making accessories or just b able to take royalties for people making a cover with the right holes in the right place for the damn things.

there is a flaw in the design of the edition treadmill, as well the way things with each edition have come out. with HASBRO and its $50 million bottom line or a product line is cancelled, this means an entirely new strategy is needed, or the edition treadmill will go on until HASBRO pulls the plug on D&D, or just kills it and takes its stuff into HASBRO solely for boards games and card games of the non TCG variety.

BOTH WotC and TSR are just trying to sell too much shit for an edition and gamers can't keep up, nor is it worth it like "worlds and monsters" or whatever the advertising books people paid to be advertised to for 4th was.

Are there any decent 2e retro clones out there? The two names I keep seeing described as such are For Gold and Glory, which seems to not be around anymore (if ever), and Myth and Magic, which is more a 3.lite than anything else.

i know of none. personally i wouldnt have a use for them either a i already have 2nd edition. like 3rd from WotC someone making a retro clone would likely base it off the SRD and i dont like the d20 system, and they would probably change things in such a way that goes against a game i want to play.

OSRIC was at one point talking about some kind of 2e project, but i think it died in lieu of OSRIC being AD&D enough as both editions ar so close anyway. again, i dont need to learn a bunch of new page numbers or the cost of printing such as i already have the 2nd books for myself to use.

which goes back to DDMW...AD&D isnt available anymore and people get puzzled when you mention it or bring up the shit WotC used for marketing 3rd and other WotC-drone and sheep use to be negative about it like Thog from OotS "THAC0 BAD. Thog not like THAC0"....

so the closest to get is OSRIC, but it isnt compatible with 2nd, and there is HACKMaster which was given to K&C as per the legal matters revolving around the DMA, but it follows their comic and has too much stupid comic humor littering it, it is a spoof of AD&D and make fun of it to the point of it not being playable as anything but a drinking game. it in itself is a joke. again why possibly WotC is NOT legally able to release AD&D outside of this limited reprints, that might have had to give Gayle and K&C a cut of the profits thus the inflated costs and deflated quality of the books.

try OSRIC or Hackmaster for a 2nd clone is best i know of. depends on what you want out of 2nd edition.

[ishy]

3rd had better marketing

What kind of marketing was there for 3e?
It might be because I live in Europe, but I never seen or heard anything about D&D that I didn't seek out for myself.
Sole exception is the D&D cartoon, but to be honest, I never realised it was based on a game.

[shadzar]

Aside form comic store that had flyers and the like about it to attract all the CCG players, since there was few places before MtG came about for "gaming" that were widespread in many places that could pass out info, there were ads in EVERY country, for this little movie... http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0190374/combined

you also had internet ads since the internet was becoming a thing.

advertising for D&D had long gone stale since the 80s and the cartoon and the movie ads on TV sure as hell did a lot to raise awareness of D&D again even for those that did NOT go to comic shops/game stores, or have a subscription to Dragon.

the movie alone was petty much just marketing for the WotC edition. and who doesnt know what movie isnt coming out soon?

WotC placing ads for it on their website where those seeking MtG could easily see.

there was a lot more non-niche marketing going on for 3rd than had ever happened before. the stores even had their little posters or whatever that would be carrying 3rd.

Europe is probably a different story cause it does have a game store on evry street corner cause of GW though form what i gather. you have to have some place to play RTTs.

Disney airing the cartoon again wasnt coincidence either i suspect. what better marketing for a product than a movie and something for kids to see and say "mommy i want that!"

those two alone were probably solely for advertising, and ALL it really needed to get 3rd off the ground and have people seek out more information on it. i am also sure the major gaming publications and websites had ads all through them for the resurgence of D&D, like Scrye and Inquest, and even possibly Wizard.

there was a LOT more gamers doing other things at the time when AD&D fell off the market. Having it only in Toy-r-Us or RC/model shops where more people could see it, was a BIG deal for marketing it.

WotC was willing to spend the money to promote it that LW was not.

video games killed the tabletop star.. i mean, them as well as CCGs took over gaming and marketing was in and around those areas that were larger than TTRPGs ever had prior.

[Prak]

Everyone sees that I gave photographic and website evidence that WotC is selling all the editions at once and Shadzar completely ignored it, right? Shad is like a creationist or climate change denier. And apparently arguing with this type of person is addictive.

[erik]

Dude, Shadzar, what the fuck do you know. You're not even a D&D fan anyway. Offered a chance to play some of your favorite edition, you bitched out.

Your gaming to bitching about gaming ratio is terrible for the DEN, and that's saying something.

Sure I've got him on ignore, but that's not a fair assessment. He was offered hounded to play with a bunch of people who are mildly hostile to him, to play via a format he doesn't care for. C'mon. Turning down a grudge-fuck in the back of a VW Beetle doesn't mean you don't enjoy sex.

[Stinktopus]

Dude, Shadzar, what the fuck do you know. You're not even a D&D fan anyway. Offered a chance to play some of your favorite edition, you bitched out.

Your gaming to bitching about gaming ratio is terrible for the DEN, and that's saying something.

Sure I've got him on ignore, but that's not a fair assessment. He was offered hounded to play with a bunch of people who are mildly hostile to him, to play via a format he doesn't care for. C'mon. Turning down a grudge-fuck in the back of a VW Beetle doesn't mean you don't enjoy sex.

Kinda raises a question in my mind, however. How long has it been since Shad has actually played D&D?