WotC's 'holiday present' the 4e Elf.

[Crissa]

Well, admittedly, making the fighting schticks into classes is probably a better way of doing it than random feats. It certainly removes the 'if you choose from the list organically, randomly, or run out of source book feats, it sucks' complaint, which was a complaint from around these parts.

But I don't really see the reasoning behind the 'leader' and 'supporter' classes. If you have leaders and supporters, why do you have anyone focusing on one weapon as a class? And if you have all single weapon classes... What weapon is 'leader' or 'supporter'? It just seems to hint at another bad dynamic.

-Crissa

[JonSetanta]

I just saw this a few minutes ago and it's relevant to our conversation:

"Multiclassing: A fighter who takes levels in wizard or cleric will still be compelling to play. A rogue wizard will be able to backstab, and throw chromatic orbs across the room, then teleport. There’s no more Crappy fighter and Crappy wizard attached to multiclassing."

http://dnd4.com/rumors

Yes it's a rumor, but have we discussed this aspect of multiclassing not only being viable, but possibly expected?

[TarlSS]

Wouldn't be out of the imagination.

SAGA expects multiclassing, and it doesn't cripple multiclass characters. If Magic is done like the Force is, you wouldn't have to deal with the 'caster level' nonsense anymore, and you'd select the relevant talents for whatever you want to do.

[Voss]

Pretty much, but the way it sounds you don't actually multiclasss. You take the Class training feat to nick powers from other classes.

Its more like you have a rogue, then at, say, 3rd level, you take class training:wizard and either pick up a power right from the feat, or use one of your normal rogue power picks to take a wizard power instead. (and maybe the feat will let you always substitute a power from class <whatever> for your own class powers. But maybe not. All we know is that the feat exists)

So that rogue wizard would actually be a rogue who picked up chromatic orb and teleport. Though rogues will apparently have their own set of battlefield teleportation abilities of one sort or another (though they may be more along the lines of auto-tumble abilities)

And, then, of course, PrCs are gone. Instead you pick up a Paragon Path at 11th level. (there has been a short list of a couple of names. Something like Master of Knaves and mystic theurge have been examples)

And then at 21st you pick an epic destiny. Archmage and demigod in training (or something like it) have been mentioned. The actual path/destiny names are kicking around somewhere. Probably in the big ass 4e info thread at Enworld. Even if most of the folks are idiots and blather about stupid shit (big topic: should Dragonborn have boobs), they do keep a fairly comprehensive list.

[JonSetanta]

Can't hear it.
Anyways..
I'm still waiting for even just a tidbit of K's idea of the same, a sampler ability of other classes similar to FF Tactics. Just a taste.... x_x

[Ice9]

A minor point in its favor, but the stacking bonus is to a skill. For many skills, being a bit off the RNG from a totally unskilled person is acceptable, or even desirable (IMO, at least).
Now the "aura" bonus - that's just a pain in the ass. If it was "all allies within line of sight" it'd be a bit more bearable. But even then, it's more trouble to track than it's worth.

And I was going to say that 4E feats are just sad. But really that's not even the issue. This feat is no good even by hypothetical 4E standards.
If 4E uses the SAGA skill system (which seems likely), then Skill Focus gives +5 to a skill (which may cover several 3E skills). Which means this feat isn't even worth considering until you have focus in every skill you know, and probably never (depending on what Class Training looks like).

[Koumei]

1198292227[/unixtime]](big topic: should Dragonborn have boobs)

Of course they should.

This thread is now about whether or not Dragonborn should have boobs

[Username17]

Mammals have boobs. Reptiles, birds, and fish have no boobs.

In a fantasy setting, you can have creatures which are chimeric or even tauric and that's fine. So you can have a Lamia (part woman, part serpent), a Mermaid (part woman, part fish), a Yazad (part woman, part bird), or a Scorpicore (part human, part bird, part scorpion). And those all have boobs because parts of them are made out mammal and the specific parts which are made out of mammal include the part where boobs go.

So if the flavor of dragon born is that they are "part dragon and part human" then yes, they can have boobs. If the flavor is that they are reptillian start to finish then they should have no boobs. It's really that simple.

-Username17

[Voss]

1198312164[/unixtime]]A minor point in its favor, but the stacking bonus is to a skill. For many skills, being a bit off the RNG from a totally unskilled person is acceptable, or even desirable (IMO, at least).

Actually, for skills it makes a huge difference:
perception, stealth, and if its like Saga: initiative. If you can blow these three off the curve, you pretty much win. All the time.

If the skill system is like saga, you can sit on a +15. At first level. Thats fucking absurd, since other people will be running around at +0.

And if it isn't like Saga, (+5 for training and +5 for focus)... well it depends. But just based on a feat thats been released (which gives a +2 feat bonus) and this elf preview, an elf can be at +5 over the normal bonuses at 1st level. Thats edging out the range of acceptable bonuses on a d20 roll at first level, as he's 25% more likely to win surprise rounds than anyone else, even if they are just as skilled. 15% if they also have the feat.

And if skills advance a 1 point for every two levels, like most things are supposed to in 4e, he's competing on equal footing with 10th level characters...

Frank, well... they lay eggs. So they're reptile enough not to actually need breasts. And of course, you're missing the wonderful counterarguments over at ENworld- 'Dragons are fantasy creatures so wizards can do whatever they want with them. They aren't real earth animals'

[Ice9]

Perception is admittedly one of the more vital skills, but having a 25% better perception chance (which will remain 25% at any level) isn't throwing the RNG out the window yet. Heck, even a 15-point difference is still (barely) on the RNG.

The skilled/focused vs levels factor is bigger, but in some ways it's a good thing. Allows you to have a Sage with better Knowledge skills than the PCs without also being higher level.

And as to the most important question: Dragonborn don't need breasts. Not even because it would be unrealistic, but because in a RPG - with no limitations on graphics/actors/SFX budget - it seems a waste to have the only PHB races be "humans with pointy ears".

[Voss]

sadly, in the artwork in the preview book, the lizards do have breasts.
and the tieflings have honking big tails that are roughly 4' long and almost a foot thick at the base (rough proportion guesses). So, sadly, yes. Somehow with the entire range of possible fantasy critters, they stuck with humans with star trek protheses tacked on.

An extra +5 seems really high for first level. And, unfortunately, there are two side possibilities that make it worse, beyond whatever the base skill number is.

1- There are no other bonuses to perception checks at all, beyond that one feat. No one else can get the +3 that elves can have through their race. So elves are the perception gods.

2- there are other feats/abilities that allow everyone to pick up an extra +3 or more. So other people can match the elves, but elves can go up to +8 (or more).

I'd agree with you about the +15 bonus under slightly different circumstances. But this is all at level one. They're breaking reasonable bonuses at first level. Now, maybe its +15 forever, and the system doesn't get any more broken, but that in itself is a downside. You've reached the peak of whats possible in the first of 30 levels. Suckage.

Even if its more 3e than Saga, a first level elf can have 4 (SP) + 5(wis) +2 (race) +2(feat) = +13. Now, work out reasonable perception DCs for a first level party when the party can be anywhere from +0 to +15 or so on the roll.
At 10, its either auto succeed or a coinflip.
At 15, still autosucceed, or 1 in 4.
At 20, 75% vs 5%.
25+ Only one person is really playing with the skill subsystem. Everyone else is standing around with a thumb up their ass.

This is mathematically broken. Period.

Oh, and to complicate matters... perception may end up being used passively in a lot of cases. In some ways its interesting, as it allows the DM to not advertise that the players are failing spot checks, but it raises some troublesome issues with giant bonuses.

Take our +15 elf. As a passive skill, its 10+bonus, so 25. No one that isn't optimized in stealth is going to be able to sneak up on him at all. In fact, most people will auto-fail. Even a 10th level character that isn't optimized to the gills is going to have trouble with it. Again, the high bonus is breaking the system.

[Crissa]

Maybe we can hope that the 'passive' uses are done without dice rolling?

-Crissa

[Koumei]

I really hope that this isn't as bad as it seems. But I have the feeling it is, and that the elf just has a huge bonus, and skills are once again in the land of "no two people are playing the same game".

Anyway, the reason why Dragonborn need boobs is this:

How do non-human races survive? Some of them are big and awesome and eat people (actual dragons, mind flayers, Outsiders of any variety other than Planetouched). Some live in non-human areas (Sahuagin, Underdark races, most Outsiders).

But the rest survive by joining Team Human. In the process, they add their deities to the pool of religions, try to become useful members of society, and - and this is the relevant part - let the humans sex them up. Boobs will make this a lot easier for them, because it makes it easier for a human male to say "I could have sex with that".

[Count Arioch the 28th]

Although I can't deny the fact that if a female dragonborn with boobs wanted me to sex her, I'd totally go for it, the fact remains that reptilian creatures with breasts just seem odd to me.

[Koumei]

I think it depends on whether or not we're taking a lizardman and attaching boobs as to whether I'd tap it or not. I mean, lizardmen look awesome, don't get me wrong, but mind flayers also look awesome, and you won't see me riding their purple pythons.

Like, ever.

But they could, in theory, be made to look attractive (to me) with a lot of effort. But it probably ends up crossing the line into "Not that scaly any more."

[Voss]

Its a lizard with tits on. There are pics in the R&C book. Really. There a pic of a female that I found flipping through the book, and though the bits are obscured by a breastplate, its pretty indistinguishable from a lizardfolk female wearing a human female's armor.

[JonSetanta]

1198410937[/unixtime]]I think it depends on whether or not we're taking a lizardman and attaching boobs as to whether I'd tap it or not. I mean, lizardmen look awesome, don't get me wrong, but mind flayers also look awesome, and you won't see me riding their purple pythons.

Like, ever.

But they could, in theory, be made to look attractive (to me) with a lot of effort. But it probably ends up crossing the line into "Not that scaly any more."

At least from the (shit) I've seen, the appeal of lizard-chicks seems more of a "scaly human woman with a dragon head" than "lizard with boobs".
So the (furry perv dino-humper) luster isn't quite attracted to a lizardfolk per se but rather just another human with a reptile head.

Also personally, it's not just boobs I enjoy, but other feminine aspects like nice thighs, waist, face, voice, mind, and so on. I'd do a "chick with scales" but probably draw the line there, since any more reptilian would cut appeal dramatically.
Can't speak for the furry fans out there, though. All it would take is one to continue the human-lizard interbreeding programs.