The Gaming Den

[MfA]

The Google glasses only cover a small part of your vision AFAICS (from pictures it looks like you have to look up to see anything). They're not really AR glasses.

The main problem with AR is that it's incredibly fucking hard to put images at the correct focal depth ... stereo is easy, focal depth is not. Holograms can do it, so as soon as we can make transparent glasses with a 1 GPixel resolution we're all set ...

[ishy]

So apparently while I was away for 6 months, one of my d&d groups started a pathfinder kingmaker game. So I'm looking to make a pathfinder char for next tuesday. I'm starting at level 3, but probably going to be level 4 in the next session.

Allowed sources

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pf phb / apg / ultimate magic / ultimate combat
and some random other stuff but got told not to take too much 3e. (example, some have the +4 animal companion level feat to make it equal to the druid one, and the cleric has zen archery from 3.5)

(I asked and) PF psionics is allowed too

I don't know my point buy or kingmaker specific rules etc yet, I'll probably hear about those today

Rest of the party

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Barbarian -> probably melee, is going to switch with the DM (bard) on 2nd book or something
Bard -> will be played by the current DM so probably will take a lot of shit no-one else is allowed to take

A Summoner with a bow + melee eidolon
A Cleric with a bow bow + animal companion (+ the boost companion feat and zen archery), not that experienced with the game, so won't play that well I'm guessing.
A sorceress, new player so can't expect that much
An editted Fighter with some cleric spells, homebrew probably

I heard that they didn't take any of the skills the DM / module adviced them to take so that hurts a bit.

I was looking at a new class from DreamScarredPress a bit:
Vitalist

The feat Fast Aid seems like a must

So I was wondering if anyone else had taken a look at it yet? Does the low amount of skill points hurt? Is it any fun to play, or too fiddly with all the minor different actions.
Guess if it really sucks I can always make a wizard.
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[hogarth]

I haven't looked at the Vitalist before, but considering that you already have a cleric for healing I'm not why you need another healer. But then again, I'm not sure how half of those Vitalist abilities are supposed to work.

In general, I think a psionic character will do well in a wilderness game since you generally only have one or two encounters per day and you won't have to worry too much about conserving resources. As far as skills go, I'm guessing Survival is the main one that the party is missing (and maybe Diplomacy?). It doesn't take too many skill points to keep a couple of skills maxed out, naturally, although a psion would have more skill points to spare.

[Voss]

Not sure what the 'edited fighter' really looks like, but what the party really seems to lack is utility. There are enough pocket fighters that the barbarian is pretty unnecessary, so the swap for the bard is probably a net gain, given the number of people that can be buffed, and it is a second cha-focused character with access to UMD, and it gives the party a diplomancer.

The however, even with the bard, there are some areas that are just lacking, and all the spontaneous casters really limit what sort of magic is available, especially if they are stupid about spell selection. Traps and ambushes are also potentially a problem, unless someone monkeyed around with character builds- no one naturally has perception, and survival is pretty limited.

It looks like the party could do a fairly effective 'gunline' with pets for blocking, but at a glance they seem pretty helpless out of combat.

So you may be expected to shoulder all the crap they didn't bother with.

[Ice9]

Having played some of Kingmaker, I can attest that casters (including psionic ones) get to rock even more than normal. Especially near the beginning, there's a significant amount of exploration with often only one encounter a day. Also, item creation feats are awesome once the "running a kingdom" part begins, because you have a lot of down-time and (once your kingdom takes off) a good amount of cash to work with.

If you want to play a psionic character in particular, I'd go Psion over Vitalist. There's already a Cleric and a Bard, so you should be decent on buffing/healing, and you can always take Expanded Knowledge if there's a particular Vitalist power you really want. And take Overchannel, because again - often one encounter the whole day. Best disciplines would be (IMO) Shaper (Minor Creation at will, better Astral Construct), or Telepath (has a lot of good powers, Mind Control is actually better than the 3.5 version). Or maybe Nomad if you really want travel utility (faster access to Fly, Teleport, etc), but it's not so great early on. A trick for Wizard-style utility - take the Psychic Reformation power. You can switch your most recent powers with no problem, and if you want to switch farther back, just do it before resting.

Oh, and near the beginning, you fight a lot of animals and non-caster humanoids, so Will-save spells/powers really kick ass. For example, Deja Vu (makes foe repeat last action) can really own things like bears.

[malak]

[ishy]

Thank you everyone for the advice.
I really wanted to make a vitalist but after looking at the power list, I don't think I'll play it. At low levels, it doesn't seem to have any powers I'd ever want to cast at all, outside of niche situations.

So guess I'll play a wizard. Probably conjuration (teleportation), really like the divination powers, just not really a fan of most divination spells.

My DM told me I have a point buy of 20 and I can access the new pathfinder race guide.
Browsing through it, I noticed this:

[CapnTthePirateG]

You wouldn't.

But take a drow sorceror instead. Here, I'll copypaste myself from Min/Max boards:

[Meikle641]

[Prak_Anima]

[CapnTthePirateG]

I like Abraxas myself- all you need to do is whip yourself and you get a cool dispel that sets dudes on fire.

I'm playing that drow in my next Pathfinder campaign.
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3e had wizards, 4e has "wizards."

[Prak_Anima]

I totally want to play such a drow after looking the class and demon lord obediances over.
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Formally taking commissions. Click to see prices and portfolio.

[Lago PARANOIA]

If drow sorcerer isn't to your order, wizards and clerics also make perfectly fine blasters as well.

Why wizards? Well, one word: Spellslinger.

As far as clerics go, they're completely spoiled for choices on their blasting. I personally like the Void (Dark Tapestry Subdomain) and Glory (Heroism subdomain) domain combination so I can be the most badass binder that ever lived while backing that ass up with the Divine Scion PrC.


Alternatively alternatively, you can always just go with a straight-up summoning build. Summon Monster/Summon Nature's Ally went from a stupid pet trick to a room-clearing beatdown spell starting at IV onwards because monsters get more feats and the levels of some of the monsters have been reduced. With the Evangelist archetype abusing Inspire Courage, the Glory (Heroism) subdomain, a metamagic rod of empower (Empower Spell applies to the addition modifier for the roll in pathfinder as opposed to 3.5E) and Augment/Supreme Summoning, you can use Summon Monster VI to pop up to 5 Azata Bralani in existence, all shooting their arrows at 1d8+11 at +17/+12 to hit. Or you could just order them all to fire off successive charm persons.

If you're really into it, the same setup can be used with a Druid summoner to have up to 5 Fire Giants power-attacking at 3d6+27 at +20/+15/+10 each with Summon Monster VIII.


And the beauty of all of these builds is that they can be combined. In fact, to show you guys just how much the cleric archer isn't dead in Pathfinder, let's post a build real fast-like.

Samsaran Cleric with the Darkness (night) and Void subdomains. You can back that Void ass up with Dark Tapestry if you want; the domain power is really good for summoning. I don't like giving up levitate, overland flight, and reverse gravity for summon monster II/V/insanity. Your call. You don't have an archetype per se; you can have the Variant Channeling option if you want to bind super-hardcore and your DM doesn't have a bug up their butt.

Favored Weapon: Composite Longbow
Stats weighting, in descending order: Wis, Dex, Cha, Con, Int, Str
Racial Trait: Mystic Past Life, plundering in no particular order Summon Nature's Ally VII, VIII (Druid), Named Bullet (Ranger 3/4) or the greater version, Litany of Righteousness (Paladin 2), and Litany of Vengeance (Paladin 4), and Bow Spirit.

The feat list is assuming that your DM won't let you make +1 Spell Storing arrows. If s/he does, replace Augment Summoning with Craft Arms and Armor and Supreme Summoning with Improved Critical.

If your DM insists that you can only pick deities outlined in the campaign setting, things get a bit harder but are still workable; just pick a deity with the Darkness or Void domain and take the Separatist archetype. You won't have longbow proficiency, sadly, but that's easy to fix with Bracers of Archery and later the appropriate Ioun Stone. It makes levels 3-6 a wee bit more rough, but by level 7 onwards you won't notice.

Feats:
1: Point Blank Shot
3: Rapid Shot (Craft Wondrous Item if subject to the above deity constraints)
5: Craft Wondrous Item (Rapid Shot if the above happened)
7: Augment Summoning
9: Manyshot
11: Quicken Spell
13: Supreme Summoning
15: Craft Rod

Levels 1-2: The first two levels are the roughest, admittedly, because you dumped strength. Stick to shooting a crossbow. Also throw out a sleep spell if you want to become belle of the ball.

Levels 3-4: If you have longbow proficiency, enjoy your rapid shot. Still, because we dumped strength it's not going to do that much damage. That's quite okay though, because the Pathfinder cleric spell list has a lot of gems in it. Along with our good friends darkness and obscuring list, we also get: Murderous Command (1), the Blindness part of Blindness/Deafness a spell level early, Defending Bone (2), Compassionate Ally (2), and a much improved Summon Monster II list.

Before I forget, too, Pathfinder published one of the most awesome spells ever: Communal Protection from Evil. It's 2nd level, too.

Levels 5-6: Okay, so why did I make you dump strength despite steering you towards cleric archer? Because of this bad boy right here. That's right. A +1 weapon property that lets you substitute wisdom for all attack and damage rolls.

This is the level also when all of our good cleric friends like Animate Dead and Deeper Darkness and Bestow Curse and Magic Circle against Evil and such start popping back up.

Speaking of which, if you followed my Samsaran spell recommendation, you should also be getting litany of righteousness and named bullet at this level. You get to spend 2 3rd-level spells to fire an arrow at someone so hard that they explode, if you want.

Oh, by the way, you get fly as a domain spell.

Level 7-8: Summon Monster IV, oh boy! Remember how back in 3E where Lesser Planar Ally for Hound Archons was probably the biggest jealousy-causing spell for levels 7 and 8, even moreso than Divine Power? In Pathfinder, it's a damn regular summon.

That's not all of the goodness you get, either. Check out your domain spell list. You get frigging Lesser Planar Binding and Lesser Shadow Conjuration. Kick fucking ass.

And that's STILL not all. The cleric spell list is still a jumble of goodness. Getting a nerfed Divine Power sucks, no two ways around it. But is it worth getting to cast Fleshworm infestation and Blessing of Fervor? You bet your ass it is. If you really want to piss off your DM, throw an Aura of Doom into the mix with whatever non-Intimidate shaken effect you can scrounge up.

By the WAY by the way. You also get Part the Veil at this level. Just in case you get bored of winning encounters hardcore through summoning, binding, or archery.

Levels 9-10: You get an extra attack and manyshot and also have enough scratch to craft Boots of Haste. Just in time for you to be able to spam Guided Shot and Litany of Vengeance, too. You also get some Overland Flight action, too.

From here on out, you use Craft Wondrous Item to put your money into Pearls of Power. Pathfinder turbocharged magic item crafting; while you do have to do an (easy to make) spellcraft check, you don't necessarily have to have the magic item prerequisites (only needing to do a +5 to Sspellcraft DC per prerequisite you don't meet, including minimum caster level) anymore AND it no longer siphons experience points.

If summoning 4 Hound Archons and then backing them up with 6 arrow shots doing 20 points of damage each isn't hardcore enough for you, the cleric spell list in of itself is beastly too. Losing Slay Living sucks, no two ways around it, but Plane Shift and Wall of Stone are still there guy. Not to mention Communal Air Walk, a clerical version of Hold Monster, Greater Forbid Action -- which is more powerful than any non-abusive save-or-die published in 3E, a clerical version of Wall of Ice, and Mass Heroic Fortune if your DM is stupid enough to allow this spell and/or hero points.

These levels is so goddamn good that you can be excused for never casting Righteous Might ever again. Level 9 is really when you start coming into your own, when you can start soloing entire encounters for an entire day.

11-12: You get the full version of planar binding, which is always a tongue to the genitals. Bloodsworn Retribution is an OMG huge attack, save, and skill check bonus. Plague Storm: Blinding Sickness would be a really boss upgrade if you didn't already have access to Greater Forbid Action. I mean, holy shit.

The big plus of this level however is getting to use Animate Objects. Animate Objects is super-fucking-hardcore in pathfinder. Hell, it's so goddamn hardcore that there's a really strong argument that you should take the Craft Construct feat yet you shouldn't because abusing it is downright unfair.

Also, now that you have Quickened Spell, your offense is boosted hardcore yet again. Yes, I would like to be able to throw out a Quickened Hold Person that due to the Void domain ability someone has a really hard time saving prematurely out of it or a more prosaic Quickened Divine Power.

Create Undead is back and it's bad (ass). Dust Form, if your DM is cursing at you and sending out packs of flying/shooty monstahs from now on, arbitrarily shuts down a large number of critters.

I know the summoner class gets fapped to on these boards as 'OMG Pathfinder made a decent class', but seriously, fuck the summoner class. Eidolins aren't bad at all and can pass the SAME game test, but they and their owners are little bitches compared to what a vanilla cleric can do with Summon Monster and Animate Objects, especially if they take the 'summon' part of their name seriously and back that ass up with the Evangelist archetype and Blessings of Fervor. If you want to murder people hardcore with extra tokens, play a cleric, druid, or wizard. Oracles, sorcerers, and wizards are acceptable alternatives.

13-14: Summon Nature's Ally VII? With a Rod of Empower and Supreme Summons, you get to conjure a backline of stone giants or a frontline of dire tigers. Nuff' said. Bestow Grace of the Champion is yet another Xbox Hueg damage boost that will make your jealous fighters long for the days of Divine Metamagic: Persistant Divine Power.

You get reverse gravity and power word blind at this level, too. Power word blind in Pathfinder is a lot meaner than 3.5E. And while Waves of Ecstasy isn't as good as Greater Forbid Action (though what is?) it's still a show-stopping face rocker.

By the way, the Blasphemy line of spells are still around. And yes, Pathfinder still has +1 caster level orange prism ioun stones (and in fact introduced a new one) and karma beads. Show some restraint, man, you're already doing +300 damage to one critter with a dedicated full-attack.

15+: I could go on, but really, I think you guys have the idea. Summon Nature's Ally VIII gives a mess of fire giants, Frightful Aura gives an ally-friendly aura that auto-frightens people in it (hey, use that with your Aura of Doom!), and Create Demiplane gives you the sweet Planar Shepard action you crave.

By the way, your domains at this point give you greater planar binding and shadow evocation. Whatever.



The point is that the cleric archer build is totally not dead in Pathfinder. All they did was nerf Divine Power. I mean, losing the extra attack and the ability to pile on PrCs without hurting your BAB does suck, but what you've gained more than makes up for it.

Truth be told, I'd rather be a cheesed-out Pathfinder cleric archer than a cheesed-out 3.0E cleric archer that wasn't using Maho Tsukai, Book of Vile Darkness, or Magic of Faerun. Yeah, things are so much more balanced now.
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This will not happen in D&D Next because Mearls is a hack-of-all-trades, a true renaissance man of fail. - rasmuswagner

[Lago PARANOIA]

Correction to the above post: you should either play a Neutral cleric (if you want summon versatility) or a Lawful good cleric (if you want to abuse Bestow Grace of the Champion; the Lawful Good-aligned summons and callings are good enough in Pathfinder that you won't really miss them, and hey, there's always shadow conjuration). I should have mentioned it up in the build. But they are mutually exclusive builds, obviously.
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This will not happen in D&D Next because Mearls is a hack-of-all-trades, a true renaissance man of fail. - rasmuswagner

[OgreBattle]

are these things you enjoy doing in Pathfinder part of what makes it bad, or what. It's hard to tell.
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www.art-eater.com

[hogarth]

[Lago PARANOIA]

[virgil]

[CapnTthePirateG]

Blasphemy & friends are still around, but now they allow saves. And you don't care, because you have SoDs that don't care about HD.

I will post a full build for that drow in a bit. Lago's inspired me.
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3e had wizards, 4e has "wizards."

[Lago PARANOIA]

Pathfinder has a few more wonky loops to it, too, like a... actually, I'll keep this one to myself, but I already know of one way for a cleric to plunder any wizard/sorcerer spell they want with a couple weeks downtime. The reverse is possible, too, with a sorcerer (but can plunder any list). The latter isn't as inventive, though, just play the Razmiran Priest archetype for a sorcerer and blow your wad on scrolls. Be sure to get a familiar or a telepathically controlled helper of some sort (hello thar, craft construct) who will juggle your scrolls for you.

If you really want to play an oracle, there's an elven archetype that lets you plunder spells off of the wizard/sorcerer list at your casting level -1 for free. Not a particularly big deal, I'm just amazed at how cavalier Pathfinder is to cross-list plundering. See the Samsaran priest build from earlier. Hell, if you don't mind losing a caster level (I personally do) Pathfinder Chronicler gives you 7 spells from any class that you want. Same deal with the Daivrat, though it takes some more finagling.

Alternatively alternatively, you can just craft a staff of limited wish. You can recharge staves in Pathfinder. Just create a stack of limited wish staves with massive cost-reductions, put in a ringer spell that will let you recharge it, and then plunder spells that you see fit. It's expensive but it beats the hell out of sucking the cock of Mystic Theurge, doesn't it?

I'm getting off track here. The reason why I made this post was to highlight probably the best low-level archetype ever published. After you get out of the low levels you're 'merely' very good.

Behold!

Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)

A naga aspirant gains a spiritual connection to the serpentine deities worshiped by the nagas. At 1st level, and each time she gains a druid level, she may add one of the following spells to her druid spell list.

0th—acid splash, bleed, daze, mage hand, open/close, ray of frost;

1st—charm person, divine favor, expeditious retreat, mage armor, magic missile, ray of enfeeblement, shield, shield of faith, silent image, true strike;

2nd—acid arrow, detect thoughts, invisibility, mirror image, scorching ray, see invisibility;

3rd—dispel magic, displacement, fireball, lightning bolt, suggestion;

4th—divine power, greater invisibility.

Now don't that kick a little ass? You give up spontaneous casting for this ability; which is actually a little sad in Pathfinder because Summon Nature's Ally is a lot better. If your DM doesn't allow nagini because it's a rare race, don't worry, there's a feat that let humans count as another race for the purpose of bullshit qualifications.
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This will not happen in D&D Next because Mearls is a hack-of-all-trades, a true renaissance man of fail. - rasmuswagner

[ishy]

Afaik the guided property: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapons-non-core/weapon-property---guided

is not actually from the pathfinder rpg, and was just published in a 3.5 adventure path.
And even then looking at it, it looks like a melee weapon only enchantment with all the striking and saying that normal weapons have strength to damage and hit.
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[hogarth]

[Lago PARANOIA]

The guided weapon property is from a Pathfinder adventure path published for Pathfinder. See: http://paizo.com/pathfinder/adventurePath/curseOfTheCrimsonThrone/v5748btpy82u9

Also, it lacks the magic words of:

[Emerald]

[ishy]