When should you say "Roll initiative"?

[K]

Umm... Going into initiative doesn't have to mean any of those things about the dragon. Going into initiative just means that someone thinks that time is a sensitive issue, not that it must be the case that you have to stab people.

I've never seen an initiative count not lead to immediate combat in my decades of RPG play.

Maybe you've seen different sets of players, but I've never seen someone use initiative count turns for anything other than combat actions(offensive or defensive). Most players seem to think it's too risky to not attack after the initiative dice are rolled since combats in most RPGs tend to be less than five turns.

[Pedantic]

@Pedantic, Readying an action before combat starts is stupid, just so you know.

That was my point. When someone wants to ready an action, clearly combat should have started.

If he does X, I'll do Y. That's ready. So you ready, and he readies, and you interrupt each other once you roll initiative, only you don't, because no one's actually doing anything yet.

Pet peeve a bit there, but you get to go before people by going, not by waiting for them to go. The Ready action is there to fix the problems of the chunky initiative system around disrupting spells or catching people crossing open ground, not to pretend you can start a fight without starting a fight.

How much more do I have to agree with you before you'll catch on that we're making the same point?

If action timing is in question, if a player wants to be able to prepare to do something in response to a trigger, then initiative is necessary to determine both who has a better initial reaction time and actually gets to go first, and when specific attempts to preempt actions will happen thereafter.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Characters should have the agency to start acting in 'combat time' (rounds) at any point they like. It's usually just a formality that can be ignored, but it makes a few game elements just work better, without any real downside.

[Omegonthesane]

Characters should have the agency to start acting in 'combat time' (rounds) at any point they like. It's usually just a formality that can be ignored, but it makes a few game elements just work better, without any real downside.

That's not the same as rolling initiative. If the incoming dragon does not do anything that would interrupt the wizard's buff routine, and the wizard does not do anything that would interrupt the dragon's flight, it isn't important to know on what initiative tick they act, only that they have a limited number of rounds in which to act.

[MGuy]

Umm... Going into initiative doesn't have to mean any of those things about the dragon. Going into initiative just means that someone thinks that time is a sensitive issue, not that it must be the case that you have to stab people.

I've never seen an initiative count not lead to immediate combat in my decades of RPG play.

Maybe you've seen different sets of players, but I've never seen someone use initiative count turns for anything other than combat actions(offensive or defensive). Most players seem to think it's too risky to not attack after the initiative dice are rolled since combats in most RPGs tend to be less than five turns.

I have to side with K here. Time should be a sensitive issue whether the character is going first or second. They then lock in an action and see who's action gets off uninterrupted. I actually can't think of a reason why it would work any other way. Dragon is X feet away and will be in party time distance in 2 rounds. No initiative is needed but rounds begin here as the wizard casts his spell and the dragon gets within charging distance. The wizard then gets ready to do spell A assuming he goes first while the Dragon prepares action A should it go first. The dragon wins initiative and gets its action A. So the wizard switches to using spell B. What's wrong with this exactly?

[Kaelik]

So the wizard switches to using spell B. What's wrong with this exactly?

Because if the Wizard had fireballed instead, he would then have more information about how many spells he gets to cast.

It's a bad system if it makes it so that Wizards who fireball approaching creatures who might not be enemies have more information than Wizards who cast Blink.

[Voss]

I'm confused as to how the fireballing wizard has more information beyond 'now that I've thrown a fireball, they definitely want to kill me'

[Kaelik]

I'm confused as to how the fireballing wizard has more information beyond 'now that I've thrown a fireball, they definitely want to kill me'

A Dragon is 1000ft away. Let's say it is one of the slower ones, so it will take 3 rounds to get within attack range, and then in the fourth round it will move and attack (if it is going to attack).

The Wizard has time to cast either 3 or 4 spells before the Dragon is close enough to breath fire. But he doesn't know which until he knows who wins init.

If his first spell is fireball, then you have to roll init then, and then the Wizard knows whether he will get 3 or 4 when he casts his second-fourth spells.

If his first spell is Resist Energy, then according to K and MGuy, he will not get to roll init, and therefore, he will still not know whether he gets 3 or 4.

This is basically bag of rats stupidity, where you as a character are advantaged by doing something to force init rolling earlier. So in my system, where you roll init anyway whenever both sides know about each other and one side wants to, you don't have to bag of rats.

Under K's system, your characters will sometimes want to do something weird to trigger init just so you can have more information.

Like having the archer shoot an arrow so the Wizard knows how many spells he gets, even when he's shooting a non magical arrow against an incorporeal creature.

[Voss]

So in your fear of someone nonsensically gaming the system in a way you don't like, you just make nonsensically gaming the system the default for everyone.

The problem* you aren't addressing is the magical knowledge out of nowhwere: that the dragon is going to get to the party in three rounds, so they can feel free to take whatever measures necessary.

*not to mention that it is a fucking dragon, and could do something intelligent instead. Like buff itself, or dimdoor or almost anything but move in a straight line toward the party.

[Kaelik]

So in your fear of someone nonsensically gaming the system in a way you don't like, you just make nonsensically gaming the system the default for everyone.

No you dumbass. I don't consider knowing who is currently acting to be gaming the system. What I am saying is that you don't want to incentivize stupid things. If you let people roll init then they just won't do stupid things.

The problem* you aren't addressing is the magical knowledge out of nowhwere: that the dragon is going to get to the party in three rounds, so they can feel free to take whatever measures necessary.

Look dumb shit. The Dragon is 1000ft away and is Black. The PCs made their knowledge check to know it's speed. They don't have any magical knowledge out of nowhere.

If the Dragon is actually Red and under Disguise self, then obviously they make the decisions under some misinformation created by the Dragons misdirection.

None of that changes whether or not you roll init. The only thing that changes is that if you Acid ball the black dragon you suddenly know who goes first, and if you don't fireball, you don't know that.

That's weird and dumb, and fixed by entering into combat time where parties move asynchronously.

*not to mention that it is a fucking dragon, and could do something intelligent instead. Like buff itself, or dimdoor or almost anything but move in a straight line toward the party.

Okay, and what about rolling init and entering combat time prevents the dragon from doing those things?

How is entering combat time a bad thing when the dragon wants to cast 4 buff spells and the PCs want to cast 2 buff spells and then move and interrupt the dragon? Why is entering combat time during the first two rounds a bad thing that ruins the game?

[Omegonthesane]

How is entering combat time a bad thing when the dragon wants to cast 4 buff spells and the PCs want to cast 2 buff spells and then move and interrupt the dragon? Why is entering combat time during the first two rounds a bad thing that ruins the game?

It means there's a definite "encounter begin" trigger that isn't necessarily when blows are exchanged. It's also harder to define "entered visual range of something that isn't BFFs" in a way that looks largely sensible than it is to define "tried to interrupt my action". (Guys, roll Initiative now, a sniper who's about 3 range increments away from even being able to snipe you passed his Spot check...)

I'm beginning to see logic in old D&D's idea of rerolling initiative every round - if that were the default, the fact you know the dragon acted second now doesn't let you know if it will go second when it's face-eating time.

[Lokathor]

A Dragon is 1000ft away. Let's say it is one of the slower ones, so it will take 3 rounds to get within attack range, and then in the fourth round it will move and attack (if it is going to attack).

The Wizard has time to cast either 3 or 4 spells before the Dragon is close enough to breath fire. But he doesn't know which until he knows who wins init.

If his first spell is fireball, then you have to roll init then, and then the Wizard knows whether he will get 3 or 4 when he casts his second-fourth spells.

Stop. Here is where you're getting it wrong. K is saying that you still don't roll init even after Fireball gets cast. You don't roll init until the parties are actually in range of each other and capable of both taking an action against the other.

I'm beginning to see logic in old D&D's idea of rerolling initiative every round - if that were the default, the fact you know the dragon acted second now doesn't let you know if it will go second when it's face-eating time.

The only problem with it is that it's a bother operationally. Rolling dice and sorting out a list every round is a lot of extra work for marginal benefits.

[Voss]

Look dumb shit. The Dragon is 1000ft away and is Black. The PCs made their knowledge check to know it's speed. They don't have any magical knowledge out of nowhere.

They can apparently calculate vectors, acceleration and the turning radius of large flying lizards in order to calculate arrival times in multiples of six seconds just by eyeballing it for a moment. Seems pretty magical to me.
Plus apparently knowing that it sees and cares about them, and for inexplicable reasons is going to come right for them.

None of that changes whether or not you roll init. The only thing that changes is that if you Acid ball the black dragon you suddenly know who goes first, and if you don't fireball, you don't know that.

That's weird and dumb, and fixed by entering into combat time where parties move asynchronously.

Remember that sudden magical knowledge? That was my fucking point- instead of suddenly knowing game mechanics by tossing fireball, your way means the _characters_ suddenly know game mechanics by doing anything.

Though if you are doing init any kind of right, rolling doesn't mean gifting the party with sudden meta-knowledge of who goes first.

Okay, and what about rolling init and entering combat time prevents the dragon from doing those things?

How is entering combat time a bad thing when the dragon wants to cast 4 buff spells and the PCs want to cast 2 buff spells and then move and interrupt the dragon? Why is entering combat time during the first two rounds a bad thing that ruins the game?

Who said ruins? It is just stupid, meta-gamey and completely unnecesary.
If they want to interrupting the dragon after casting for two rounds, then _that_ is the first time init matters, and that would be the sensible time to roll.

Rolling earlier obfuscates a lot of options, and basically leans more on mechanics than really necessary. What you describe isn't particularly interesting- combat music plays and combat things happen. There is a lot more to an RPG that can be pulled out by the DM asking 'You spot a dragon in the distance, how do you react?' rather than defaulting to a FF-style combat menu of Attack/Cast/Use/Flee.

[Kaelik]

Okay, you know what, you are a fucking idiot.

You can't have both parties acting without going into combat time and having one act first.

It is literally impossible.

If you say, "You spot a Dragon in the distance, how do you react?" and they answer with literally anything at all, then it immediately becomes necessary to roll init and enter combat time. If the dragon moves 200ft a round, and they are doing something each round, then it fucking matters whether the dragon is 1000ft away or 800ft away. And if you can't answer that question because you are not in combat time, then you are failing as a DM.

And also, stop being a lying [EDITED] about magical knowledge. They know the distance. They have to know the distance because if they don't know the distance then the world ceases to make sense. I never at any point claimed they need to know anything else, other than that could make a knowlege check to know the speed of an average Black Dragon.

Once again, I am saying that as a DM you should say "There is a Dragon, it is Black, it is 1000ft away."

Then, the PCs can make decisions about if it comes towards them how fast it can get there based on knowledge checks about the possible type of Dragon, and take actions under whatever assumptions they want to make.

Stop. Here is where you're getting it wrong. K is saying that you still don't roll init even after Fireball gets cast. You don't roll init until the parties are actually in range of each other and capable of both taking an action against the other.

Um... are you an idiot? Do you not understand that they are casting fireball on the Dragon?

I was taking Ks statement about interrupting generally, because I sure fucking hope he's not stupid enough to have entire combats without rolling init because so far people have only been attacking their enemies, and not readying an action to interrupt.

Obviously when fireball is cast, it matters how far away the Dragon actually is, and fireballing the dragon is an attempt to "interrupt" his move because it works at some places and not at others.

[MGuy]

Still, I don't see the problem. If you want to cast fireball and the dragon is still out of range you ready an action for when it comes into range. On that round no one is interrupting each other and no one has to roll init because no one can interrupt the other. If the dragon is out of range you wait until the dragon is in range then fireball it. If the dragon is already in range you fireball it. It doesn't matter who goes first that round because fireball isn't going to stop the dragon from moving and since the dragon isn't going to be able to retaliate in a way that matters, init doesn't need to be rolled. Now if the dragon is closer and is within' fuck you up range THEN it matters how far away he is because in that turn he can fuck you up. Now you would roll initiative since the dragon CAN do something about your fireball this round and who goes first actually matters. Alternatively if fireball actually would somehow halt the dragon's movement in some fashion then I would call for initiative because you'd be effectively interrupting the dragon's action.

[Voss]

Okay, you know what, you are a fucking idiot.

You can't have both parties acting without going into combat time and having one act first.

It is literally impossible.

No. Literally impossible means 'it can't be done'. If two people are doing separate things that have no effect on each other, then it doesn't matter when it happens.

You don't, for example, need an init count if the cleric is casting a cure spell, the fighter is reloading a crossbow and the rogue is making a search of the room. Even if there are 10 goblins on the other side of the door. It doesn't fucking matter when any of that happens.

Neither does the party need to know that the dragon is exactly 1000 feet away. That isn't a reasonable expectation for anything. People honestly do not function that way, and guess what? It rarely has a negative impact on their life. They estimate, plan and react with knowing exact numbers all the fucking time.

I've played a lot of D&D (and other games) over the years and rarely has a DM given an exact distance for anything past 100' or so (usually not even that- typically no one has ever given a shit if it wasn't inside charge range). The game has never failed because it wasn't a computer game with always on, exact measurements (which is about the only gaming situation where exact long-distance measurements have ever come up).

Once again, I am saying that as a DM you should say "There is a Dragon, it is Black, it is 1000ft away."

And that is a weird DMing sytle. I'd expect to be asked to make a spot check for the color (pretty easy, depending on the conditions), and given an estimate on the distance.

But anyway, the gist of this seems to be you expect free information for an overly mechanistic combat board game. My TTRPG experiences generally haven't leaned that way, except for shit like 4e, which is only that. (Except, of course that 4e encounters aren't allowed to start that far away, because the system can't cope with it).

Most people I've gamed with would react to a 'dragon in the distance' with diving for cover and watching it, and preparing nasty surprises if it came any closer. None of it requires initiative numbers or exact distances.

[K]

But anyway, the gist of this seems to be you expect free information for an overly mechanistic combat board game. My TTRPG experiences generally haven't leaned that way, except for shit like 4e, which is only that. (Except, of course that 4e encounters aren't allowed to start that far away, because the system can't cope with it).

Most people I've gamed with would react to a 'dragon in the distance' with diving for cover and watching it, and preparing nasty surprises if it came any closer. None of it requires initiative numbers or exact distances.

Yeh, that's my opinion.

Telegraphing the monster moves three or four rounds ahead of time for the players is just bad DMing and encounter design. It's a fucking dragon and just sending it forward with the assumption of combat is pretty boring.

At the very least, you have it cast some spells or something. Have it dip below the treeline so it doesn't spend rounds taking fire and doing nothing. Literally anything more interesting than spending three or four rounds in combat time asking the whole party what they are doing. Shit, the fact that it might cast it's own Fireball is actually a bid deal.

Hell, an attacking dragon is still probably better off flying away and waiting for buff spells to wear off than to attack a party that is going through three rounds of buffs.

That being said, there is still no reason why players need to know if they have three or four rounds of buffs. The exact amount of foreknowledge is neither interesting nor particularly essential other than as a indicator to the PCs that they can write down their next three turns and run to the kitchen for soda.

[Kaelik]

Telegraphing the monster moves three or four rounds ahead of time for the players is just bad DMing and encounter design. It's a fucking dragon and just sending it forward with the assumption of combat is pretty boring.

Resolving things in combat time does not require telegraphing the monsters actions. In fact, having the monsters do anything complex at all requires combat time.

At the very least, you have it cast some spells or something. Have it dip below the treeline so it doesn't spend rounds taking fire and doing nothing. Literally anything more interesting than spending three or four rounds in combat time asking the whole party what they are doing. Shit, the fact that it might cast it's own Fireball is actually a bid deal.

All of which requires you to have rolled Init already and entered combat time.

[Voss]

Why?

Whatever your reasoning is for these random assertions, you aren't explaining it well. Or at all.

[Maj]

They can apparently calculate vectors, acceleration and the turning radius of large flying lizards in order to calculate arrival times in multiples of six seconds just by eyeballing it for a moment. Seems pretty magical to me.

I would just like to point out that this is an incredibly dickish and asinine thing to say.

Seriously, how many drivers sit in their cars and do frickin' math in order to determine whether or not they can turn a corner without getting plowed by an oncoming vehicle? Knowing the make and model of the oncoming car doesn't even help you.

If you're a wizard and you see something up there in the sky heading for you, it makes absolutely perfect sense to say, "Shit. At the rate it's going, I'm only going to be able to cast a couple spells!" If you happen to recognize what the large flying object is, the only real difference that makes is in the appropriateness of the spells cast.

The idea that there's "magical" knowledge here is utterly retarded. It's just instinctive. People do it every bloody day - without radar guns, speedometers, trigonometry, and calculators.

[K]

He's stuck in a logic trap.

Either he gives the PCs foreknowledge of the next three to four rounds and Initiative doesn't matter and the timing is meaningless because there is no conflict or value to doing things in any order,

OR

Initiative matters because he doesn't give them foreknowledge of the next three to four rounds and timing on actions matter (ie. the Wizard might not get a round 2 buff off because the dragon teleports in closer).

Either way, his original argument and example are nonsense.

[K]

They can apparently calculate vectors, acceleration and the turning radius of large flying lizards in order to calculate arrival times in multiples of six seconds just by eyeballing it for a moment. Seems pretty magical to me.

I would just like to point out that this is an incredibly dickish and asinine thing to say.

Seriously, how many drivers sit in their cars and do frickin' math in order to determine whether or not they can turn a corner without getting plowed by an oncoming vehicle? Knowing the make and model of the oncoming car doesn't even help you.

If you're a wizard and you see something up there in the sky heading for you, it makes absolutely perfect sense to say, "Shit. At the rate it's going, I'm only going to be able to cast a couple spells!" If you happen to recognize what the large flying object is, the only real difference that makes is in the appropriateness of the spells cast.

The idea that there's "magical" knowledge here is utterly retarded. It's just instinctive. People do it every bloody day - without radar guns, speedometers, trigonometry, and calculators.

And people fail to calculate those vectors instinctively every day too, hence car accidents.

Empirically speaking, people are rather shitty at predicting the speed and arrival time of fast-moving objects.

[Chamomile]

A major difference is that cars are actively trying not to hit each other whereas the dragon is actively trying to murder you before you can cast your spells. So when people fail to calculate the gap in traffic properly, the other guy brakes a little and maybe honks at you if you got it really bad, but you do not usually wreck, whereas with the dragon every miscalculation is something he's going to capitalize on to make sure you don't get the last buff spell off before fighting.

[jadagul]

Telegraphing the monster moves three or four rounds ahead of time for the players is just bad DMing and encounter design. It's a fucking dragon and just sending it forward with the assumption of combat is pretty boring.

Resolving things in combat time does not require telegraphing the monsters actions. In fact, having the monsters do anything complex at all requires combat time.

At the very least, you have it cast some spells or something. Have it dip below the treeline so it doesn't spend rounds taking fire and doing nothing. Literally anything more interesting than spending three or four rounds in combat time asking the whole party what they are doing. Shit, the fact that it might cast it's own Fireball is actually a bid deal.

All of which requires you to have rolled Init already and entered combat time.

I think K's point is that you can enter combat time without rolling initiative. Sure, once they see the dragon you can start counting in rounds. But you don't need to roll initiative until it actually matters who goes first.

[CatharzGodfoot]

D&D positioning is wargame-based. Invoking some sort of indeterminate positioning system where you don't know exactly how far away the dragon miniature is on the battle mat is the Oberoni fallacy.

In D&D, arrows don't fall short, because every shot has the same maximum distance. And you never accidentally hit a visible ally with a fireball, because the blast radius is always exactly 20'. These are just given aspects of the game. I'm not saying they're good. Just that you shouldn't pretend that you're talking about D&D if you aren't following its basic assumptions.