The oddity that is the Shrink Item spell.

[Wrenfield]

What a neat utilitarian spell - Shrink Item (Sor/Wiz 3rd level Transmutation). But ... it seems like it has a lot of question marks in its ajudication.

1. How "fast" is the shrinking/unshrinking process? For example, if I unshrink a wickedly upward-spiked 10'x10' iron trellis located between the legs of an Ogre, does the expansion happen fast enough to impale or damage the Ogre? And if so, how much damage and what kind of REFL save is needed?

2. If I unshrink a 12'x12'x10" standalone cohesive stone wall in a 10'x10' granite tunnel, what exactly happens?

3. If a "burning fire and its fuel" are considered an *item* in regards to the individual nature of the spell, are treasure chests with multiple components inside it considered an item? Or a 3 undead skeletons strapped together? How about a boat with life preservers, rope, compass, beef jerky, etc.? *ITEM* seems rather vague in description. The Stronghold Builder's Guidebook says you can "wear" a pool of holy water turned clothlike as a cape.

4. The activation of unshrinking has 2 triggers - tossing the item onto a solid surface ... or using a Word of Command. The Solid Surface trigger is handy for tossing large boulders or flasks overstuffed with a bunch of clothlike Alchemist Fire or acid. But the Word of Command ... is that a standard action activation?

5. Can you shrink things like hinged doors, locks, and traps? Thereby negating the neccessity for a Rogue.

6. Some neat things to shrink/unshrink with the spell: Ladder, rowboat, ballista/catapult, portable forge with fuel, large boulders, pool of water, large bonfire.

7. An interesting way to use it to make money, is to shrink every single piece of extremely large treasure found while adventuring ... that you normally would bypass due to difficulty in transportation. Examples: large religious altars, long bolts of silk or rolled rugs, bulky bushels of saffron, etc.

...

So, I'd be curious to see what kind of unique or cheesy tactics people use with this spell. I'd also like to hear about any weird ajudications or clarifications that this spell needs.

It seems very open-ended and ripe for rules arguments.

Since my Wizard just scribed this spell to his spellbook, I'd like to start using this spell in some interesting but rules-legal ways.

Thanks!

[Username17]

1. Happens instantaneously, but with no force. A growing creature or object can make a strength check to overcome any barriers preventing it from growing to maximum size (failure stops it at however big it got when it encountered the barrier). Most objects such as iron trellises have no strength score and simply stop growing if restricted from doing so. This means that you can hold an item in your hand and end the spell and have the item stay small forever if for some reason that's important to you.

2. It fills the area snugly and is 8.3" thick.

3. A treasure chest filled with swag is considered an object. So is the lock on the chest, and you can target either at your option. Undead creatures are creatures, not objects, and are not legal targets for the spell. An object is any collection of matter which collectively has no wisdom or charisma score, and is not made up of separate entities which have a wisdom or charisma score. That's it.

4. The Word of Comand is not "activating a command word magical item", it is "saying a word". That means that it is a free action.

5. It doesn't negate the necessity of a rogue. Rogues can still disable Forcecage or Symbol, as well as find traps. It negates the need for a Rogue to have "Open Locks" - but that skill doesn't do anything anyways.

6. That's not really a question. But I'll add "Brown Mold" and "Green Slime".

7. Based on the size of saffron and its relative value, I wouldn't consider leaving a "bulky bushel of saffron" on the ground ever. Do you have any concept of how valuable and light that stuff is? I'd seriously jetison gold pieces to carry that stuff home - it's worth more.

--

I'm fond of using it to move heavy doors from one place to another. As a battlefield control wizard, it's a lot like have "Wall of Iron" except that it only takes a 3rd level slot last Thursday.

Also remember that many traps are portable - for example green slime. That stuff is astounding when used as a thrown weapon.

-Username17

[The_Hanged_Man]

Shrink item is mucho fun. You're going to make eveyrone's head hurt by bringing RL into gaming.

My takes:

1.It happens instanteously, but does no damage. A quirk of the turn system is that everything happens effectively instanty on your turn wrt everyone else. Falling, for instance, is instantaneous by the rules. Charges do the same thing.

Damage? I'd say none. I'd follow the Enlarge Person guidelines - which I think is what Frank is doing.

2. I'd formerly say it breaks, but I like Frank's idea.

3. You get the same problem w/ Disintegrate and other "object" targets ("is each link in the chain shirt a separate object?"). It's a judgment call. We use a fundamental part test, which is subjective but doesn't end up with that many arguments when all is said and done. Oars, sails, etc. are a fundamental part of a boat, and so are part of the item or object. Lifejackets, beef jerky? That's a bit of a reach, but if they were stored somewhere in the boat (not just lieing around), then I'd allow it.

I disagree w/ Frank on this one. I wouldn't allow the spell to break down into components things that can be considered a whole. Causes too many problems and arguments.

4. I'd say free action, too. I've never seen a rule on it, though.

5. You can shrink some of them, depending on what it is. I wouldn't let the spell shrink things that are attached to other things.

BTW, enlarge used to be a handy way to open doors before it was limited to people.

6. Also, colossal net, holy altar, pools of acid, several gross of caltrops.

IIRC, it doesn't suspend animation, right? Or do fires stay frozen until released? If so, a bunch of lava would be fun.

7. Great idea, if your DM hassles you about stuff like that. I don't, and neither do my DM's, fortunately.

[Wrenfield]

Happens instantaneously, but with no force. A growing creature or object can make a strength check to overcome any barriers preventing it from growing to maximum size (failure stops it at however big it got when it encountered the barrier). Most objects such as iron trellises have no strength score and simply stop growing if restricted from doing so. This means that you can hold an item in your hand and end the spell and have the item stay small forever if for some reason that's important to you.

That's an interesting and accurate extrapolation of the rules, Frank. That being the lack of STR for a given object, and the STR check needed to prevent expansion. I like that...

The Word of Comand is not "activating a command word magical item", it is "saying a word". That means that it is a free action.

So I guess that you could release a shrunk boulder while flying, and while it is en route to the ground, you can say the free-actioned command word, and the boulder will hit the ground, not the shrunk version of it (which would normally trigger the unshrinking only *after* the contact has been made). Well ... that makes for a helluva powerful missile weapon. Again, you can use the gallons of alchemist fire alternative as well.

Undead creatures are creatures, not objects, and are not legal targets for the spell.
***
But I'll add "Brown Mold" and "Green Slime".

Hmm. Per pg. 76 of the DMG, it states that *all* slimes, molds, & fungi are treated as plants in regards to spell effects. By virtue of the fact that plants are creatures, and not objects - that should rule them out as targets of this spell. Although the "Slimes, Molds, & Fungi" section tends to be bit open to alternative interpretation.

5. You can shrink some of them, depending on what it is. I wouldn't let the spell shrink things that are attached to other things.

So I am not sure of how you would shrink a hinged iron door then ... does the resistance of the wall mount hinge-attachments prevent the hinge assembly on the door from further shrinking? Since both are from separate unattached "items" and most likely made of the same metal (and hence, the same strength).

...

My example of bulky, oversized treasure (i.e. saffron) was a poor one - I should have said stuff like valuable statues, furniture, fountains, etc. Stuff you can't cram into a Heward's Haversack or Bag of Holding.

[The_Hanged_Man]

IMO, attached objects are beyond the scope of the spell. It doesn't have a mechanic for breaking things, unlike past versions of similar spells, which leads me to think it can't break things. It's also limited to one "item," and allowing attached items to be targets leads to the most troubling issues w/ what an "item" is.

It might be possible to get some hinged doors off of a wall w/o breaking something, if you assume that the door hinges are screwed into the wall, and the hinge and screws themselves shrink as well. But there's just so many physical problems when I try to think through how the spell would "actually work." I hate it when spells are plausibly physical . . .

[Username17]

I disagree w/ Frank on this one. I wouldn't allow the spell to break down into components things that can be considered a whole. Causes too many problems and arguments.

That makes other object targetting spells like Knock into monstrous headaches. The door is part of the house. The house is targettable by magical effects. The door is targettable by magical effects. Heck, with Rusting Grasp, the lock is separately targettable by magical effects.

Every "object" is individualy made up of other smaller objects. A sword is a hilt and a blade, a chest is a vessel and a lock, and so on and so on. What is the object is necessarily dependent upon your reference frame - which is up to you, the person casting the spell.

There is no other way to make object targetting spells function. At all.

Hmm. Per pg. 76 of the DMG, it states that *all* slimes, molds, & fungi are treated as plants in regards to spell effects. By virtue of the fact that plants are creatures, and not objects - that should rule them out as targets of this spell. Although the "Slimes, Molds, & Fungi" section tends to be bit open to alternative interpretation.

Doesn't matter. If it has no Wisdom and Charisma score it is an object, and targettable by spells which affect objects. If it has special rules that allow it to be targetted as a creature under certain circumstances, that's great. But in order to not be affected by object targetting spells it would need to have a special rule about not being affected as an object rather than simply a rule saying that it is targetted as a creature.

Remember, trees are "objects", not "creatures" in D&D terms, despite being a living plant.

-Username17

[The_Hanged_Man]

The reference frame depends on the caster? This is the best anti-structure spell ever. One plank from a ship. The cornerstone of a castle. Or temple. Or dungeon. Or dam.

I'm pretty sure that's not how the spell's supposed to work. And it doesn't work anyway, as a practical matter.

What's wrong with using the spell as intended - what the "item" is depends on what's going on? Some things are impossible to define with precision, and it's pointless to try. This is one of them.

[Username17]

The reference frame depends on the caster? This is the best anti-structure spell ever. One plank from a ship. The cornerstone of a castle. Or temple. Or dungeon. Or dam.

Exactly. That's how shatter works. That's how a pickaxe works too.

An object is always differentiable into pieces or integrable into a larger whole. That's why it is an object, there's no "self", there's no distinct "whole". If you want to attack the brass fittings on a candelabra, you can.

Called shots are a reality for objects, and always have been. Anti-metal spells can target the nails in an otherwise wooden table or door. Anti-leather spells can target the leather straps holding an otherwise metal barrel together.

And so on and so forth. Objects don't have any distinction between themselves and the outside world, so when you target them with an attack or spell you choose exactly what it is you are targetting when you attack the spell.

In D&D you can't specifically whack someone's finger off as long as they are alive. However, in D&D you can choose to disntegrate half the stick of butter. Or the whole butter tray stick and all. It's up to you because there are specifically no boundaries between the stick and the rest of the stick, or the stick and the tray, or the stick and the tray and the table, or anything at any level.

That's what Charisma "-" means: no distinction between "self" and "not self".

Any creature capable of telling the difference between itself and things which are not itself has at least 1 point of Charisma.

Anything with no Charisma score is an object, not a creature.

-Username17

[The_Hanged_Man]

All of which is easy enough to do w/o allowing objects to be broken down to sub-objects for targetting purposes. I think we can all agree that anti-metal spells can target nails in wood. Do you think Shrink Item should be able to demolish a castle - without a save?

Just use a common-sense definiiton of object and item, in the context of what the spell does and what the caster wants to do. Seems pretty simple to me.

I don't really know where to begin with your called shot deal. People are nothing but a collection of objects that have consciousness. An eye is an object - it doesn't have a charisma score. Can I target that? If not, do I make my sword untargetable as an object by grafting it to my arm? What if I use the Eye of Vecna? Or the head?

[Username17]

I think we can all agree that anti-metal spells can target nails in wood.

Then you can target pieces of objects as objects themselves. End of frickin discussion.

Do you think Shrink Item should be able to demolish a castle - without a save?

A hammer can destroy a castle without a save, I don't see the problem. If for some reason you have sufficient engineering knowledge to know what chunk of the castle would make the whole thing fall down if it wasn't there - you don't need Shrink Item as part of that equation.

People are nothing but a collection of objects that have consciousness.

Since there are collectively part of a whole which has a Charisma Score, they are not objects. Creatures are not differentiable into objects, nor are they integrable into objects.

The entire universe that isn't creatures is one object, or an infinite number of objects, or any other combination of objects that you want to think about because there are no boundaries. But each creature is exactly one creature, and is not differentiable or integrable in any way (unless it is a swarm).

When you cast Disinitegrate on the floor, you can have the destruction cover the whole floor, and crawl up the walls, and take the rug, and the table, and anything else which is vaguely contiguous. But the people standing on the floor (as well as all their equipment) is safe, and then they find themselves standing on nothing and fall.

Just use a common-sense definiiton of object and item,

Whose common sense? Yours, or mine? Honestly, I have no idea why you would want to break out into an argument about how many things in the bag are part of the bag every time you cast this or any other object targetting spell.

The rules for object targetting are very, very clear. You don't have to argue whether the object is the forest or the tree - they are both the object.

-Username17

[The_Hanged_Man]

If you really think the entire universe is one object for purposes of spell targetting, we have nothing more to discuss.

[Wrenfield]

Okay, I see the Green Slime / Brown Mold possibility as being legal per the RAW (although, granted, it doesn't make RL sense since the things are officially plants).

You do have one obstacle. Shrink Item is a touch spell. And touching Slime/Mold sucks. So you circumvent that with using the Reach Spell feat or the Spectral Hand spell.

Next, you get a hold of the magic item from the BoVD called the Slime Pot (pg. 116). Then you hire a stonemason to make you a large stone container capable of safely & securely holding a few Green Slime patches (5'x5'). And the container needs an easy extraction method to retrieve multiple shrunken Green Slime "cloths" (once the container's residents are all shrunk).

Using the engine of:
1. Slime Pot (11,200 gp)
2. Storage Container
3. Multiple Shrink Item and 1 Spectral Hand spell

... a mid-to-high level Mage can make a significant amount of Green Slime cloths to use as thrown weapon "bombs" (stuffed into fragile glass vials for example). Assuming of course, your party is en route to a combat adventure in the short term (Shrink Item spell lasts 1 day/level).

This would be a nice long-term augmentation to a party's missile combat capability. And you can also cast Permanency on a shrunken Green Slime cloth to boot.

[The_Hanged_Man]

Couldn't you use spectral hand? Or is that only attack spells?

[Wrenfield]

Um ... I already wrote that.

Couldn't you use spectral hand? Or is that only attack spells?

[Username17]

You can also shrink trees, as those are objects as well. It doesn't specify non living objects. This means that Shrink Item can be used to move Dryads around.

Also note that Shrink Item will stop a Slime from damaging you any more, so you don't need to put it into a glass vial or anything, you can just shrink it and throw it.

Rogues can Sneak Attack with green slime, btw.

-Username17

[Wrenfield]

You can also shrink trees, as those are objects as well. It doesn't specify non living objects. This means that Shrink Item can be used to move Dryads around.

Frank, I can't tell if you extrapolated the interpretation of Shrink Item's parameters as meaning that it can only affect "non-living objects". I see in the Shrink Item spell, the words used to describe the target of the spell as being a "nonmagical item" or an "affected object". Of which, I don't think either one is legally defined within the context of the game or the spell itself. In light of that, can't an item or an object be something that is *alive*?

**

On a separate note, what would happen in the following circumstance:

1. 10th level Elf Wizard successfully Magic Jar's into an Orc's body.
2. Jarred Wizard then casts Shrink Item spell on his original Elf body, which is now lifeless, and therefore an object. Wa-la, Elf body is now 1/16th its normal size.
3. Jarred Wizard then casts Permanency (->Shrink Item) on his original Elf body. Meaning he can now toggle his original body as often as he wants from shrunk to unshrunk and vice-versa.
4. The Magic Jar spells ends normally, and the soul in the Orc body returns to your original Elf body. Which is now currently shrunk (but has the Permanency toggle active).

So, does the Elf now have the option of shrinking/unshrinking his body via using the free-action command word ... forever? Or until dispelled. Am I missing any other quirk to this combo such as the nullification of the Shrink Item mechanics once the Magic Jar ends? I'm primarily interested in how these chain of events work within the RAW, not each spell's intent.

[The_Hanged_Man]

IIRC, as long as something is a valid target when the spell is cast, the effects continue even if the target changes to something that would be invalid. So, normally I'd say that'd work.

But, just this once, I actually looked at the spell, and noticed this:

Objects changed by a shrink item spell can be returned to normal composition and size merely by tossing them onto any solid surface or by a word of command from the original caster.

Literally, the spell says that only "objects" can be returned to normal size. So, arguably, if a creature isn't an object, you can do that - but you end up a clothlike, 1/4 size elf that can't turn back, b/c it's not an object.

[User3]

Wow. Thanks.

Now I really can have the plush Balor and Planetar set on my bed.

[Crissa]

I would say that objects attached to other objects would fail to Shrink per the spell because:

[ol][*]The shrinking spell gives no wording on how the item would become unattached.
[*]The item shrinking has no STR, and therefore is contrained by the object it is attached to. It cannot force its way out of its constrained position - so the same force which could keep a shrunk item small, keeps a shrinking item large.[/ol]

Of course, if the item could just be picked up (aside from weight, which we know to follow a different mechanic in the game) or pulled out without a STR roll, then it's not attached.

-Crissa