fectin wrote:Right.
So the point was, you can't turn a kitten into a dragon. Originally, I thought you could by mixing in animate dead, but killing those returns it to its original form. Mixing Baleful Polymorph, Animate Dead, and a kitten gets you a live kitten with high HD, but terrible saves. You now have a kitten which can be polymorphed to a dragon.
I'm pretty sure it works, but it's really not anything profound.
I don't see how the cat is becoming anything more menacing than a 2HD small zombie. The polymorph spells that can turn you into something better than a 1 HD small animal, explicitly end upon death. Zombies can't be polymorphed so that's a dead end. The only way you can turn it into a dragon is going to be temporary and not producing a useful animate undead target.
Cat starts out 1/2 HD tiny animal. Gets baleful polymorphed into a 1HD form small animal. Gets killed, possibly stays in a 1 HD small dead animal form. Gets animated into a 2 HD small cat zombie. You cannot polymorph the zombie and even if you could you still couldn't make it into a dragon permanently.
Now, Polymorph Other from 3e could create permanent critter upgrades, and in 3.5 you can still layer Polymorph Any Object to permanently turn a critter into a dragon. Neither of those need or profit from adding Animate Undead to the mix though.
You change the subject into a Small or smaller animal of no more than 1 HD (such as a dog, lizard, monkey, or toad). The subject takes on all the statistics and special abilities of an average member of the new form in place of its own except as follows:
The target retains its own alignment (and personality, within the limits of the new form’s ability scores).
The target retains its own hit points.
The target is treated as having its normal Hit Dice for purpose of adjudicating effects based on HD, such as the sleep spell, though it uses the new form’s base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and all other statistics derived from Hit Dice.
Okay. Start with a cat. It has 1/2 HD. Kill the cat. Animate it as a zombie. It has 1HD. Baleful Polymorph it into a cat. It is not clear how many HDs it has now. For the purposes of attack bonus and saves, it has 1/2HD. For the purposes of HD-dependent effects like sleep, it has 1HD. Presumably, doubling HD is dependent on HD though, so:
Kill the cat. It is now a dead cat with the same stats. Animate the cat as a zombie it has 2HD. Baleful Polymorph it into a cat. It is still not clear how many HDs it has now, but for sleep it has 2HD and for saves it has 1/2HD.
Kill the cat. It is now a dead cat with the same stats. Animate the cat as a zombie. It has 4HD. Baleful Polymorph it into a cat. It is still not clear how many HDs it has now, but for sleep it has 4HD and for saves it has 1/2HD.
Etc.
Where does it say that zombies can't be polymorphed? I don't see that anywhere in the Baleful Polymorph text, the Zombie template text, or the Undead type text.
Anyway so the process caps out at a 16HD zombie cat after fully five castings of Animate Undead and four castings of Baleful Polymorph. And then you cast Polymorph to turn the zombie into some 15HD monster that's actually threatening?
ETA: hogarth already answered my question about zombies and baleful polymorph. Missed that line of the Undead type.
Last edited by John Magnum on Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Now, Polymorph Other from 3e could create permanent critter upgrades, and in 3.5 you can still layer Polymorph Any Object to permanently turn a critter into a dragon. Neither of those need or profit from adding Animate Undead to the mix though.
Polymorph Any object is a will save and actually can be used on zombies. Also it can create any corpse you want for animation purposes, because those are objects. You can also use Stone Shape and Stone to Flesh to create corpses of anything you can imagine for animation purposes.
Animate Dead has some seriously weird fringe uses when you combo it with stuff.
FrankTrollman wrote:Polymorph Any object is a will save and actually can be used on zombies. Also it can create any corpse you want for animation purposes, because those are objects. You can also use Stone Shape and Stone to Flesh to create corpses of anything you can imagine for animation purposes.
Animate Dead has some seriously weird fringe uses when you combo it with stuff.
-Username17
Are corpses officially objects? Raise Dead targets "dead creature touched" and Skeleton and Zombie are both acquired creature templates. I always thought dead creatures were still considered creatures.
Not that it would stop you from making Stone to Flesh zombies. Animate Dead / Create Undead target "corpses," Stone to Fleshing a statue explicitly creates a corpse, so... fuck.
this is why the game originally stated use common sense. objects are thing you can touch.
corpses, zombies, skeletons are all things you can touch. they are special cases and further defined objects, but still are objects.
like how a square is a special rectangle.
Play the game, not the rules.
Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.
Lewis Black wrote:If the people of New Zealand want to be part of our world, I believe they should hop off their islands, and push 'em closer.
good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
So, to objectify this, Red Rob objects to Shadzar's objects.
objection!
Play the game, not the rules.
Swordslinger wrote:Or fuck it... I'm just going to get weapon specialization in my cock and whip people to death with it. Given all the enemies are total pussies, it seems like the appropriate thing to do.
Lewis Black wrote:If the people of New Zealand want to be part of our world, I believe they should hop off their islands, and push 'em closer.
good read (Note to self Maxus sucks a barrel of cocks.)
1) Dumpster-Diving
Taking up too much game time to figure out what to change into.
2) Implementation
Taking up too much game time to convert to your new stats
3) Overpowered
Power level increase is too good
This is pretty much what I thought it would be. I didn't think Dumpster-Diving was that big a problem, but I played under a "PC's not allowed to look at the MM during play" rule for a long time.
As for Dumpster Diving. I think there are 2 good solutions and I like them both.
Maximum number of creature options for the spell is Caster Level /2
This would make 3 options at 7th level and 4 at 8th. 4 seems to be a pretty fair number, enough to have combat and utility forms but a small enough number that you could actually be bothered to Write Out Your Stats beforehand. You could change your options every level and increase by 1 every 2 levels.
The spell requires an additional material focus: A preserved heart of the creature type you are changing into
The preserved heart would cost more than 1 GP. You would have to purchase it or go out, kill it yourself and cast gentle repose or something on it. The creature would have to be part of your DMs game world for you to do this of course so that solves another potential problem with the spell.
Animal hearts would be cheap but something like a Troll or a Dire Bear would be quite a bit more expensive. Selling Unicorn hearts might be flat-out illegal and Stone Giant hearts might be illegal and impossible to buy even if they weren't.
Another thing I like about this. You are creating a nice little sub-economy of adventuring parties tracking down an elusive Winter Wolf for lazy NPC wizards. A pretty iconic quest for low to mid level types.
I think these solutions work to solve the first problem and some of the second.
Dumpster Diving isn't just a problem during play. It's also a problem the rest of the time, because monster abilities are seriously weird and their interactions with whatever the fuck your polymorph rules are were never considered when the monsters were written. Alter Self can turn anyone into a Troglodyte for stupid lots of natural armor, and it can turn an Aasimar character into a fucking Dwarf Ancestor for a +18 Natural Armor Bonus.
No matter what restrictions and equations you impose on polymorphing, there will be some monster somewhere that happens to provide only ricockulous bonuses without drawbacks. There are seven books filled with basically just monster after monster, and they have every combination of abilities and drawbacks you can imagine - and probably many you can't.
With enough dumpster diving, players can and will exploit spell durations being short or long. They can and will exploit gaining or not gaining any stat, ability, or class of trait. Hell, you know that the Dwarf Ancestor Super-AC build is based on not gaining the stats of the target creature, right?
As a thread necromancer: does the DA Super-AC build Frank mentioned just consist of "Lesser Aasimar Wizard 3 with Otherwordly" or am I missing something?
OgreBattle wrote:"And thus the denizens learned that hating Shadzar was the only thing they had in common, and with him gone they turned their venom upon each other"
-Sarpadian Empires, vol. I
CapnTthePirateG wrote:As a thread necromancer: does the DA Super-AC build Frank mentioned just consist of "Lesser Aasimar Wizard 3 with Otherwordly" or am I missing something?
Yeah, pretty much. Go stack Monk and Mystic Wanderer on there too. Yada, Yada.. Super AC build.
Stacking armor and nat armor can swing AC right off the RNG faster than anything else and the simplest way to do that is with Polymorph. Thats a problem of course, actually my biggest problem with the spell, but there are fixes for that. My current thought is that your items meld into your form but stay functional, just keep your old saving throws, your old AC, adjust for size and convert any armor to nat armor. It's simple enough but there are some things I don't like about it.
I'm having a problem where I didn't expect and that is which skills to use. Use your new dex-based skills and you cant open a lock anymore even if you have hands, use your old ones and you get elephants with a +30 tumble check. Use your new wis-based skills and you throw out all your sense motive ranks, use your old ones and you dont see any better as an Eagle.
On the plus side I'm not finding much of anything with completely ridiculous attack modes that aren't magical. The medium BAB on the Giant type is keeping them in the same ballpark as the melee guys.
First option- Keep it simple. Use a mechanic that already exists.
~~
FEAT
Channel Monster- When casting an arcane Summon Monster spell you may instead polymorph yourself into the creature in question.
You may choose a creature from the next highest list (SM 6 instead of SM 5 for example). You are effectively that creature for 1/min level. Use that creatures stat block for yourself, just like you would if you summoned it, including its equipment.
You may not use the creatures teleporting or planeshifting abilities or any ability with a permanent duration. You cannot use the Earth Glide ability.
Note: A DM may wish to consider this as a simpler alternative to the polymorph spell.
~~
This type of thing has precident with spells like Summon Babau Demon, Bearded Devil, Bralani Eladrin and Hound Archon (Sp Comp) except the creature just takes your place instead of you concentrating on the spell.
..and just for fun.
~~
FEAT-
Ghost in the Machine- When casting a Summon Monster spell to summon an elemental greater than your size you may cast the spell in your space, take the place of the animating spirit, and wear the elemental as a shell.
You replace your statistics with said elemental for 1 round per level. If an attack brings you to negative HPs your shell falls off and disappears, you reassume your normal form with these negative HPs worth of damage. You may throw off your shell as a move action.
You may not cast spells in your elemental form, even with an ability that says otherwise.
Prereqs: Channel Monster
~~
This feat was a responce to someone on the board who wanted a Mech Armor ability. I thought they worked well together. Ignore it as the main point of Polymorph conversation. (Unless you think it's great of course)
Anyhow, doing it this way would be exactly as complicated as using the Summon spells. This is essentially exchanging Polymorph problems for Summoning problems, not a real fix, but probably good enough as a patch.
POLYMORPH
LEVEL 4- S/W
Range: Personal
Verbal, Somatic and Material Focus
Duration: 1 min/ level
Polymorph tranforms you into a specific type of creature , chosen at the time the spell is prepared, for 1 min/level, allowing you to take on some of the abilities of that creature. You may also choose 'myself but slightly better-looking'. If you do, you retain your spellcasting. All other forms do not.
Upon changing to your new form supress any of the following conditions: blinded, dazzled, deafened, diseased, exhausted, fatigued, nauseated and sickened. Poisons are supressed for the duration as is any paralysis that is not mind- affecting including the STR or DEX 0 condition.
All current magical spells and effects are supressed as well. All supressed conditions and spells continue to apply to your old form and reappear once the polymorph effect ends.
All spells and effects that apply enhancment, morale, luck, comp, insight, holy, unnamed or other numeric bonuses that you receive DURING the duration of the polymorph effect are likewise supressed.
Allowable forms for polymorph are any animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast or monstrous humaniod from tiny to large size with a natural heart. This form must be as its typical Monster entry with no template (Wartroll is considered templated).
Its HD can be adjusted upward, as per the rules in MM1, but only until the point that the creature would normally change size. Regardless, it's HD can be no larger than your HD or caster level. A creature smaller than small-sized, like a familiar, may only assume small-sized forms.
Any Su or Sp abilities of the creature may not be used. Any DR, resists, immunities or fast healing may be used but no SR.
The spell requires a preserved heart of the type of creature you wish to polymorph into as a Material focus.
YOUR SKILLS
As Polymorphed form- listen, spot, jump
As Animal, Dragon or Magical Beast forms- balance, climb, escape artist, tumble
As either form- hide, intimidate, move silently, survival, swim
Use Magic Device in Humaniod, Fey and Dragon forms only.
All other skills as Original form.
YOUR STATS
Saves and Initiative- As Original form
Senses and Movement- As Polymorphed form, including new movement modes.
STR, DEX, CON- As Polymorphed form
INT, WIS, CHA- As Original form
HP- As Either form. Lower to Original forms Max HP when effect ends if current HP are higher.
NOTE: If you are keeping your spellcasting (Natural spell feat) you must use the LOWER of either forms HP.
AC- As Either form. If using your Original Forms AC adjust for size, drop any bonus from your shield and recalculate touch AC based on Polymorphed forms' DEX and size. Keep any Mage Armor bonus if you choose your original forms AC. If it somehow matters, it is assumed that the difference between touch and normal AC consists of Natural Armor.
Attacks- As Polymorphed form. If in Fey, Giant, Humaniod or Monsterous Humaniod forms you may use an equipped weapon and shield, if they are magical they resize with your new form. If you choose to use your shield, add its AC bonus and abide by its usual restictions. If you choose to use equipped weapons they are used as normal. Adjust damage for their new size.
YOUR FEATS
FEATS of both forms are used normally.
Attack-based CLASS ABILITIES such as Rage, Smite and Favored Enemy work normally.
Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike and any Precision Damage abilities do not. Multishot (Skirmish) and Flurry of Blows do not.
~
FEAT
True Polymorph- You may choose from additional forms when casting a Polymorph type spell. You may choose yourself or up to 1 form per 2 caster levels when casting the spell. You are still limited to one form per casting.
~
I'm confused. What problem exactly is this trying to solve? 'Cause it looks like you took all the problems with 3.0 polymorph, then added all the problems of the 3.5 version to it.
Current pet peeves:
Misuse of "per se". It means "[in] itself", not "precisely". Learn English.
Malformed singular possessives. It's almost always supposed to be 's.
Level 3
WILDSHAPE
As the Druid ability for 1 min/level
Level 4
DRACONIC POLYMORPH
You may polymorph yourself into a Dragon for 1 min/ level. You take on all the abilities and statistics of that Dragon, including any breath weapon, ex or su abilities or spellcasting (you lose your own spellcasting, even you have a feat that says otherwise).
All items are melded into your new form. All worn items that do not add numeric bonuses work normally. You keep some of your skills (as the Polymorph spell).
The material focus for this spell is a scale of the size and type of Dragon you wish to change into. It must have been taken from or gifted by a living dragon.
Level 5
POLYMORPH OTHER
As Polymorph except: Touch range, willing target with minimum 7 int.
Level 8
GREATER POLYMORPH
As Polymorph but up to 25hd, Huge size and add Elemental types.
Level 8
GREATER DRACONIC POLYMORPH
As Draconic Polymorph but up to 25hd, no size restriction and 10 min/level
Level 9
SHAPECHANGE
As Greater Polymorph but up to 1 willing target with 7 int or greater per 4 caster levels. Range: Close.
If targeting only yourself the spell lasts for 10 min/ level. You may switch between any available forms as a swift action but you must use your own HP if you do this.
Having the preserved heart of the creature in question seems like a pretty good idea, as it allows the DM to clamp down a bit on dumpster-diving if she feels fit. Otherwise, I'm inclined to agree with Seerow. What problems does this solve, exactly?
