Why can't the dumb melee fighter fly and teleport?

[Aryxbez]

It's very weird to have a class feature that's "Because your class is playing, the entire battlefield warps to accommodate your need to drop stalactites on enemies".

actually that sounds like a great class feature for like a Geomancer/Elementalist. Warping the battlefield to create hazards that destroy your enemies.

I was thinking the same thing, and would be surprised if the Den didn't see that as an opportunity for such a kind of class. It wouldn't even have to be screwed if the DM isn't imaginative with terrain (admit, is a fault of mine), since manipulating new ones, least creating stone walls, and pillars like in Full Metal Alchemist.

Also nockermensch, I like your fighter idea, now if can stylize it with other abilities like where can get to a flying enemy via "climbing determination" "catching a ride on a local griffon" or whatever. Although would probably use that as selling point for everyone else, I myself don't have problems with fighters gaining Charles Atlas Superpowers, just for training in it, like getting Super strength One Piece style.

Lastly, still wondering what games Surgo had in mind where fighters could fly and teleport, among other such things.

[Lago PARANOIA]

re nockermensch: Most of the time when people try to 'fix' the VAH/DMF it's stupid useless melee combat fixes. And I find it very weird how when I say that this is exactly why the martial character will never be balanced they try to disprove me by doing what I said symbolizes their eternal suckitude.

[nockermensch]

re nockermensch: Most of the time when people try to 'fix' the VAH/DMF it's stupid useless melee combat fixes. And I find it very weird how when I say that this is exactly why the martial character will never be balanced they try to disprove me by doing what I said symbolizes their eternal suckitude.

Oh well, maybe what you call "eternal suckitude" is what other people call "fucking awesome".

The idea of a class who Gets Things Done by the measured application of a greatsword (or arrows, or fists, whatever) has a lot of traction in the genre. Basically, this class has to become actually very good at what it does and very frustrating to face in combat, exactly like a wizard is. Power Goal here should be the party finally entering the throne room and as the grizzled evil emperor stands up from his throne, drawing his bastard sword, the players get filled with the same sense of dread they should be feeling if it was the evil archimage or evil messiah instead.

To say that such a class is impossible to do is absurd, because the Tome Fighter is a decent take at that. It think it needs to be even more hardcore, with high level abilities on par with Gate and the such.

Is this actually hard to imagine? If by level 11 the casters are "expected" to be chain binding efreeti, write an ability for the VAH that comes online around that level that implements Defeat Means Friendship on D&D:

Befriending(Ex):
You beat people so hard, that they start liking you.
Upon dealing the death blow to a foe (reducing him to -11 or less hp), you can ellect instead to leave them Befriended. The foe is left at 0 hit points and his attitude to you is shifted to Friendly. At your discretion, the foe's alignment can also shit one step closer to yours.

This isn't a magical charm effect, but a true permanent change of personality caused by the impression you caused on him during the fight.

A Befriended enemy usually departs to find a new path in life, but can be called to provide assistance. This assistance can take the form of combat support (he joins you during a fight), items or information. (this part needs to be done by someone better at game balance).

You can Befriend up to one enemy per level. Everytime you level up, you can chose one of your Befriended enemies to gain a level. If a Befriended enemy dies, it's substituted by another one of the same level.

Now the dumb melee fighter doesn't have to cry whth the Angel Summoner summons angels. He has his own angel (and devil, and death knight, and whatever) ally to call too.

As for the idea that "hitting with a sword gets old by 7th level" (or something, I didn't read all the why the DMF sucks arguments, but as I understand this is a complaint people have against DMFs) it seems for me like an inversion of cause and effect. That hitting things with a sword IS boring in D&D doesn't follow that it must always be boring. That is an effect of bad rules, not an unversal principle.

The wizard "casts spells". This never gets old, because the spells gets more and more badass. "hitting things (with your favorite whatever)" can't get old, because everything in D&D has hit points. Everything. Therefore, there's literally no problem that cannot be solved by the application or threats of violence.

[Lago PARANOIA]

The idea of a class who Gets Things Done by the measured application of a greatsword (or arrows, or fists, whatever) has a lot of traction in the genre. Basically, this class has to become actually very good at what it does and very frustrating to face in combat, exactly like a wizard is. Power Goal here should be the party finally entering the throne room and as the grizzled evil emperor stands up from his throne, drawing his bastard sword, the players get filled with the same sense of dread they should be feeling if it was the evil archimage or evil messiah instead.

Sword this, sword that. Combat this, combat that. Thanks for perfectly encapsulating why the DMF is a shallow and inappropriate archetype to have at higher level.

Now the dumb melee fighter doesn't have to cry whth the Angel Summoner summons angels. He has his own angel (and devil, and death knight, and whatever) ally to call too.

So all the 3rd Edition Fighter had to do to stay relevant and interesting was to use the Leadership feat? THAT FIXES EVERYTHING.

Therefore, there's literally no problem that cannot be solved by the application or threats of violence.

And this mentality points exactly to the problem. As long as people fervently believe this stupid and untrue delusion, the sword-based character will never ever be balanced.

I hope that everyone at least sees why calling the martial warrior a 'Fighter' was one of the worst moves that D&D could have ever done.

[nockermensch]

Sword this, sword that. Combat this, combat that. Thanks for perfectly encapsulating why the DMF is a shallow and inappropriate archetype to have at higher level.

Eh, Lago, are we even talking about the same game? I'm talking about the one with a "Combat" chapter that's like (don't have the book here, can't say for sure) bigger than the entire chapter for non-combat skills. You know, the game where on the Equipment chapter you have like three tables: Weapons, Armor, Everything Else.

So all the 3rd Edition Fighter had to do to stay relevant and interesting was to use the Leadership feat? THAT FIXES EVERYTHING.

Now you're not even trying and other people will see this. What I wrote is much more powerful than vanilla Leadership and I never said it was a fix for everything. I merely took one problematic area where spellcasters rule (bringing summoned bitches to the table) and wrote a non-magical version of [Lesser] Planar Bitches. For any other are where there's a caster dominance, you need to write a similar fix. And then write some kind of power acquisition/management for the fighter so that he can play in the big kids pool with the other classes.

Therefore, there's literally no problem that cannot be solved by the application or threats of violence.

And this mentality points exactly to the problem. As long as people fervently believe this stupid and untrue delusion, the sword-based character will never ever be balanced.

I hope that everyone at least sees why calling the martial warrior a 'Fighter' was one of the worst moves that D&D could have ever done.

NO U

Seriously, is this some weird personal issue of yours? Do you think I actually believe that that "violence is the answer" in Real Life, or something? As the old suicide moms were afraid that D&D players were messing with REAL MAGIC, are you afraid I'm messing with REAL SWORDS here? Because I don't see the "stupid and untrue delusion" otherwise.

Seriously, what the hell? Action movies and series, Shounen manga, Superhero comics, videogames. Are you seriously saying that D&D, of all games, shouldn't provide the means to emulate these? You're the one sounding delusional here, not me.

If the matter is "the Fighter class, as written, has nothing to do outside combat", I find this idea insulting. The wizard and the rogue, as written, have nothing to do outside combat (the cleric strangely goes, however, as it comes with a social role pre-filed). It's up to the player to create an actual sapient being with needs and goals and attach it to the combat construct that's a D&D character.

If the angle I chose for my fighter is "shit covered farmer that had had enough!", then I'll seek completely different goals and ventures than "daughter of minor noble out to make her name." than "amnesiac guy that awoke in a meadow with a sword in one hand and a strange amulet on the other" than "child soldier that somehow survived up to now and is starting to want nice things."

The deep phylosophical issue of how you exert your will on the universe is seriously not even a question in D&D. There's actual monsters outside the town gates and people should be letting you get your way just because you can go outside and turn the monsters into lasagna. The game isn't, like, Mage the Ascension (fuck, I'm old) where you can meet uneffable concepts that must be reasoned with. It isn't Changeling the Dreaming, where the objective is to create mirth and protect the spark of creavitity against the forces of dread and monotony. This is fucking Dungeons and Dragons, where violence is always a valid answer.

[Winnah]

If the matter is "the Fighter class, as written, has nothing to do outside combat", I find this idea insulting. The wizard and the rogue, as written, have nothing to do outside combat (the cleric strangely goes, however, as it comes with a social role pre-filed). It's up to the player to create an actual sapient being with needs and goals and attach it to the combat construct that's a D&D character.

The wizard class, as written, can do things out of combat. Magical things. At some point in their career, there are no practical limits as to what can be achieved or simulated through the use of some spell or another.

The rogue can also do plenty of things out of combat, but compared to the wizard, they are not as impressive.

[nockermensch]

The wizard class, as written, can do things out of combat. Magical things. At some point in their career, there are no practical limits as to what can be achieved or simulated through the use of some spell or another.

The rogue can also do plenty of things out of combat, but compared to the wizard, they are not as impressive.

Well, given. Spells and Skills have wider uses than [Fighter] feats. The game as is is marred by 30 years of Game Designers (who all self-inserted in their campaigns as wizards) sperging their self-fullfillment fantasies on spells for fucking everything. The fighters, in the meanwhile, were seemingly their little brothers' characters.

What I meant to convey and failed to do was that "doing things outside combat" is mainly a matter of mindset. I certainly played Evokers before Varsuuvius made them cool and had a spell selection inspired on Dark Schneider, not Merlin. Me playing a wizard was pretty much as me playing a fighterwarblade, only with fireballs instead swords. Of course, you're right that if I want to play Batman or James Bond as a wizard I can do that with honors, if I want to do that as a Rogue I can do that pretty okay and if I want to do that with a Fighter I'm shit out of luck. Since there are spells for fucking everything, and there's UMD that lets you emulate spellcasting, this is rather obvious, in fact.

That disparity needs to be fixed, of course. You can achieve that in at least two ways: 1) Ban every fucking spell that you disagrees with ("Gate? GONE! Shapechange? GONE! Major Creation? GONE! Forcecage? GONE! etc") or 2) For every area that benefits enormously by the application of magic, give the fighter (and/or the rogue) a non-magical flavored way to do about the same.

[Pedantic]

2) For every area that benefits enormously by the application of magic, give the fighter (and/or the rogue) a non-magical flavored way to do about the same.

How is this possible, when those things include "creating stone walls out of nothing" and "immobilizing foes without expending actions after the initial one?"

The problem is, even if you stretch reality to let those things fly, you're going to end up relying on equipment based solutions sooner or later, and it's disingenuous to only give that capability to the fighter and to make "using rope" as effective as "altering reality."

[Blade]

Or maybe there shouldn't be a "melee fighter" archetype but a Fighter archetype, who can do both melee and ranged combat depending on the situation.

[Username17]

Eh, Lago, are we even talking about the same game? I'm talking about the one with a "Combat" chapter that's like (don't have the book here, can't say for sure) bigger than the entire chapter for non-combat skills. You know, the game where on the Equipment chapter you have like three tables: Weapons, Armor, Everything Else.

In the PHB, Chapter 8: Combat is 28 pages long and Chapter 6: Skills is 26 pages long. But the Combat chapter has more pictures and is thus less actual text. The equipment section has eight tables: 2 are related to weapons, 2 are related to armor, and the other 4 are not (2 are money and trade equivalents, 1 is carrying capacity, and 1 is goods and services).

-Username17

[Wulf]

In our campaigns, the fighter-types always gain awesome physical abilities ,depending on their level or skill ranks.

A swordsman is about cutting stupid and silly things, so its progression is like: Cut Flesh -> Cut Wind (short-range attack) -> Cut Matter (thin walls, pillars)-> Cut Magic (dispel, one-shot summons, cut force barriers) -> Cut Dimensions (planar travel). That last one might be limited by setting:P

His movements abilities are enhanced by having putting points in jump skill for example, gaining wall-jumps, jump-steps (think bleach flash-step teleports). With the balance skill, he can gain wall-walk for a round, run over water and epic levels simply balance on air and air-walk.

Ofcourse, our fighter does not gain 2+int skill points..it starts with 4+int minimal for all classes.

Yeah, i know a lot of those things can be done by the psychic warrior using powers, and a few by stances in Tome of Battle. But really, this should be standard for any one with great martial- and physical skills.

[Foxwarrior]

How is this possible, when those things include "creating stone walls out of nothing" and "immobilizing foes without expending actions after the initial one?"

Well, making your stone walls be made of nothing isn't that important except in space, so the fighter equivalent would be "toss several hundred cubic feet of flooring material several yards."

"Immobilizing foes permanently" is so easy, even a landmine can do it.

[Aryxbez]

and it's disingenuous to only give that capability to the fighter and to make "using rope" as effective as "altering reality."

Well that would make that skill much more Awesome, it still baffles me that it's a skill these days. Although catching a ride on Tornadoes, or using it to strangle dragons sounds pretty hardcore and should be doable. Also Rope? Fighter doesn't need rope, he can just use his own organs as rope! (helps if it's someone else's or if he was undead though)

What I meant to convey and failed to do was that "doing things outside combat

That disparity needs to be fixed, of course. You can achieve that in at least two ways: 1) Ban every fucking spell that you disagrees with ("Gate? GONE! Shapechange? GONE! Major Creation? GONE! Forcecage? GONE! etc") or 2) For every area that benefits enormously by the application of magic, give the fighter (and/or the rogue) a non-magical flavored way to do about the same.

Problem with the first that can make Spellcasters less tactically interesting, especially if they're relegated down to Evocation only. After all, taking/errata stuff away how we got Pathfinder, and too much, created 4th edition. I agree with the idea of the second idea, just prefer these similar abilities feel different than simply saying "Fighter Flies now", after all, good sum of us like our jumping induced flight like the Hulk, Inuyasha, and Samurai Jack fame. I think the popular solution is to tone down some of the higher end insanity that Spellcasters they can do (so don't end up with Fighters having to be the Man of the Steel at 12th or whatever), while beefing up the non-casters enormously, much like the second suggestion above.

I'm not sure if I understood what were trying to convey, your prior post even makes it sound like advocating DM fiat, how Fighters be viable out of combat. Thus expecting DM Fiat to shore up the fact a Fighter can't stealth well, Intimidate, Perception (spot/listen), Diplomacy or effin steal things, due to low skill points and what not. As sure ye can make up cool backstories for fighters, and most fans of that archtype like me, no doubt have. However, since we're playing a game, and in this one, if ye don't have the skill points, then ye can't adequately cover that skill check, be it using rope, jumping far and high, or even gathering info in the local town.

Or maybe there shouldn't be a "melee fighter" archetype but a Fighter archetype, who can do both melee and ranged combat depending on the situation.

Agreed, our various media of inspiration had such characters capable in both ranges of combat. Hell even Link had Sword beams/throwing sword, and he's probably one of the more iconic "fighters" people think of these days (even if he's a pretty low level guy).

As for the landmine comment, the moment that continues being a threat to the fighter, long after Fireballs have done the similar, then it's bad for the longevity of the archtype, and them advancing to bigger and awesome things. Course, using leagues of them to blow up a mountain or something for the High Level fighter to avoid by Athletically thwarting, or hell even Super Strengthing away from danger (or nearby victims).

[Parthenon]

I had a go at a class that did absolutely everything including contributing outside of combat, just by hitting things with his sword. But it was mostly ignored, partly because it was a rushed idea that I couldn't be bothered to work on more and partly because it was in IMOI.

It was the Dumbass Fighter. By the judicious use of repeated blunt strikes it could disable traps, convince people to your point of view, reveal invisible creatures. dispel magic, remove curses, and create magic items.

It still had the lack of movement, but it could still actually contribute to the story more than any Fighter ever could.

If I was continuing it I'd add things like hitting the floor with a blunt instrument like a big hammer to move the ground into a bridge, and hitting the wall so hard the broken shards rebound into an area effect attack while some of the roof falls on them.

[Kaelik]

And it was roundly hated by everyone because, people who want to play a stupid fighter don't want to play someone with magic teleporting by ground punching skills, and people who don't want to play a stupid fighter would rather have a good reason to be able to use cool abilities, like being infused with shadow instead of being so dumb that they non magically magic.