D&D Racial Diversity Bullshit

[Lago PARANOIA]

When you "point out that white privileged exists" you are calling people privileged. You are deliberately and directly attacking all the white people, so it really shouldn't surprise you that it provokes responses.

What the do you mean by 'attack'? This is a very ambiguous verb. Attack could mean 'the book burner attacked non-believers for their degeneracy' to 'the scientist attacked string theorists on their last of a falsifiable prediction' or 'the mayor attacked the teachers' union over their demands'.

If you mean 'when you point out that white privilege exists, you are attacking the omission bias of white people', then, can't really disagree with you. But you didn't put that in and that could imply a great many more ugly things. And even then that's phrased poorly, because the scientist attacking string theorists for their lack of results isn't personally calling their colleagues sloppy or fruitless or stupid.

The very idea of accusing a white person of white privilege because they're white is racist.

Yes, I agree. But that's not what happened here. Someone accused a (presumably white) person of white privilege based on omission bias and/or the outright 'who gives a shit, moving on'.

Because... that's what privilege is. It's the unconscious exercisation of advantages society grants you in such a way to demean or inconvenience an outgroup.

Hell you might even be white and be discriminated because of that, like what is going on right now in South Africa.

This is a non-sequitur in regards to this discussion, which is 'white privilege in D&D iconics'. Unless you want to expand the discussion to mean 'privilege in general' or 'white privilege in general'.

[Pseudo Stupidity]

Guys, there are no white people in the Simpsons so I can't relate to it at all. They have black people, asian people, native American people and all of that, but no white people! What a bunch of racists.

[Lago PARANOIA]

PS: Just because a series or anything does not have members of your favored race/gender/sexual orientation/whatever does not mean that you can't relate to it. I mean, that's pretty much a given for a period piece or a work based on non-human species.

However, if there's a specific and persistent pattern of a set of works or media in general (and there is) of writers favoring one subset of society over the other then people in the outgroup are almost certainly going to suspect privilege over time. And that is going to impact their enjoyment of works.

Remember the yellowfacing in The Last Airbender movie? If the director had cast the characters as belonging to a fictional race of plant people, that would have been dissonant and odd, but that wouldn't have been privilege. Similarly, if the director loved Latinos so much that he only wanted to shoot a movie if everyone was cast as one that would have been bias or even out-and-out racism. But not privilege.

[Wrathzog]

PS: Just because a series or anything does not have members of your favored race/gender/sexual orientation/whatever does not mean that you can't relate to it. I mean, that's pretty much a given for a period piece or a work based on non-human species.

However, if there's a specific and persistent pattern of a set of works or media in general (and there is) of writers favoring one subset of society over the other then people in the outgroup are almost certainly going to suspect privilege over time. And that is going to impact their enjoyment of works.

This is pretty much it in a nutshell.

I'll say it again, intent is unimportant. Perception is the key. You don't want to give people the opportunity to perceive your product as being racist.

[PoliteNewb]

Only after you exploded in "ASINER;PVO4KJFME0;OI8UH;G WE RACISM FIEHNJEC;OIUEHF;2W3E'[;0" did people start taking more extreme stances, and that was probably just to oppose you because you're being a dick.

I'm going to answer this just because it's kind of hilarious.

Here is what I wrote:

Do you feel that game artists ever leave caucasians out of the art because "they might not exist in the game world"? Because I'm going to suggest that something like that happens 0.00% of the time.

The only "logical" need to deliberately seed a game with real-world ethnic characters is to encourage players of those ethnicities to play the game. Because they will see "hey, people like me exist in this world". This is an incredibly common thing, and not just for games...consumers of all forms of entertainment (books, movies, games, etc) like to see people they can easily identify with represented in the media. It's not rocket science, and it's not offensive.

Note that I did not even use the words "racist" or "racism", nor did I accuse anyone of anything.

You probably don't think it's a huge problem because (I'm going to guess here) you're white.

Here I made a generalization, based off my experience with people who make remarks like that. Note that I am careful to qualify my statement, and that I do not accuse anyone of anything (I guess someone could read that I "accused" Prak of being white...the horror).

Simple question: are you caucasian?
If so, it is incredibly easy for you to not give a shit, because it does not impact you one iota.

Here I ask a simple question (which Leress answered, though Schwartzkopf didn't).
I also pointed out that caucasians are a priveleged group with regards to racial awareness. Again...is this somehow controversial or offensive? It's pretty much an acknowledged fact by anyone who's done any research at all into race.


And in response to my posting those fairly reasonable statements and questions...I got this:

Yes, bitch and moan about white privilege. I'll get right on giving a shit about that when any discussion of race issues doesn't turn into a bunch of "all caucasians are dicks" sentiments after a few posts.

If it's discriminating against Whitey, it can't be racist, because only white folks are racist. :rolleyes

PoliteNewb, you really need to go fuck yourself.

And yet I'M the one who is freaking out? I'm the one being a dick? What planet do you live on?

Ah, I see. You are saying the whole world is like America?

I will cop to some ethnocentrism there, you got me. Mea culpa. I do tend to interact with most people as if they were American. But as you point out, "default whiteness" is not an exclusively American phenomena.

See, that's the funny thing, you called people a dick before they acted like dicks.

Really? Where?

When you "point out that white privileged exists" you are calling people privileged. You are deliberately and directly attacking all the white people, so it really shouldn't surprise you that it provokes responses.

It's not an attack. It's pointing out an aspect of society that happens to be true, at least in America and much of Europe.

http://www.nymbp.org/reference/WhitePrivilege.pdf

I can't help it if people either don't like reality, or don't like to acknowledge it. I can understand it making people uncomfortable (it made me uncomfortable when I first started looking into it), but that's too bad.

Accusing someone of white privilege on the internet because they don't give a shit is even stupider. I may or may not be white, and that may or may not have to do with why I don't give a shit.

I didn't accuse you. I asked if you were white, and pointed out that if you are, it is easier for you to not give a shit.

Leress pointed out he's not white, and he still doesn't give a shit. That's fine. If you're white and don't give a shit, that's fine too...but it's easier for you.

[...You Lost Me]

Seriously dude? Disorienting? Like it would fuck with your head so bad that you wouldn't know up from down? You were perturbed by the ethnicity of an actress playing a character so much that you had to verify whether the author intended it?

Have you had to program BET off your TV so as not to get the spins? Did you write a letter of protest when Mos Def was cast as Ford Prefect?

I'm sure that you're probably not a KKK member or do anything actively racist but that whole paragraph there is absurdly racist. It's demonstrative of the far more common passive racism that denies its racism due to exceptions (I'm certainly not racist, why my maid Shawniqua and her family are so nice and we always give them a turkey on thanksgiving) Its PC racism, but racism nonetheless.

... I assume you just need someone to troll right now, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

"Disorient" does not mean "fits of epileptic rage". I looked at the screen, was surprised and a bit confused, and then chilled out. But that was only once, and if I saw it repeatedly, I can imagine being a bit confused every single time. And that is disorienting. Surprisingly enough, not everyone is an extremist racist killer like you want them to be.

NEXT:

PoliteNewb, even the quote you just gave me shows you're doing the 'SAFJ{E(IOFJNE RACISM' thing. Like "(I'm going to guess here" you're white". Try and say that without sounding like you're being a racism-obsessed asshole. There's really no way to do it.

So yes, you are exploding about racism. And every time you have made a post, you are accusing someone of being white or not understanding white privilege. You are the reason this thread is a rage-fight, because every single post you have is attacking someone for having white privilege. The only difference is that you are pretending to be awesome and subtle and everyone else is just calling you on your shit. Pull your heat out from between your legs and face the sunshine of reality.

[infected slut princess]

It is in fact true that the largest determining factor in personal success in America is your parents income, but I'm not surprised that people with rich parents get upset when I tell them that they aren't better than poor people, just luckier.

Yes, it is lucky to have wealthy parents. It is unlucky to have ghetto parents.

And luck! Well, life is all about luck.

• Some Guy: "The wealth of your parents is a big, if not THE BIGGEST, factor, in determining how rich you will be. Your parents were rich. That is why you are rich. You're lucky, that's all."
  Rich Dude: "Damn, so it doesn't actually have much to do with me personally?"
  
  Some Guy: "The race of your parents is a big factor, if not THE BIGGEST factor, in determining whether you will go to jail. Your parents were black. That is why you are in jail. You were unlucky, that's all."
  Black Dude in Jail: "Damn, so it doesn't actually have much to do with me personally?"

Honestly, the fact that the statement "more minorities would be more comfortable playing D&D if you included more POC in the art" gets people so riled up says more about white privelege than just about anything else I could say.

People don't get riled up about it unless you accuse people of secret racism for not getting riled up about it. Otherwise people seriously don't give a shit, for example that Leress guy saying "i don't give a shit" even after he confirmed for you that he is not an evil caucasoid as you assumed. I can also testify that in university that was a hardcore black nerd in our group and racial representation in the books was not an issue he ever complained about, and he played a negro dwarf dude with one of those beer hat things containing healing potions instead of beer.

2.) Saying "why don't you go focus on a REAL issue" is a classic derail tactic. How do you know I don't? The fact that there are other problems bigger than this in no way means this is not a problem.

I can be pretty sure you don't, because JUST THE FACT that you are spending ANY time something so small and petty as REAL WORLD RACIAL REPRESENTATION IN FANTASY WORLD D&D LAND shows that you are hopelessly mixed up about what is truly good and evil in this world. I mean, serious racial issues aren't about skin color of fantasy characters in games that nerds play -- it's about people of different races killing each other. So I infer from the fact that you are SO DESPERATE to make "racial discriination in D&D!!!!" a big deal such that SOMEONE aside from, like, 5 or 6 people somewhere (including you) will care about, that you are incapable of recognizing serious moral problems involving real racial warfare -- such as America's "war on terror" (i.e. war on brown people with "scary" religion).

So if you have brought up such a serious issue AT ALL (as you have with this totally non-serious issue), then I will believe that you spend at least some of your time thinking about problems that are important involving people murdering other people. So where is the thread or any evidence of you talking about half-white half-black Obama killing brown people, or other forms of interracial slaughter?

The only "logical" need to deliberately seed a game with real-world ethnic characters is to encourage players of those ethnicities to play the game. Because they will see "hey, people like me exist in this world". This is an incredibly common thing, and not just for games...consumers of all forms of entertainment (books, movies, games, etc) like to see people they can easily identify with represented in the media. It's not rocket science, and it's not offensive.

Hmm, do you think that Asians are turned off of watching Seinfeld because none of the main characters are Asian? Because I can tell you a lot of Asians like to watch Seinfeld a lot. I have never met an Asian who didn't like Seinfeld.

And well you know a lot of non-white nerds are going to play D&D even though the warrior dude on the cover of the PHB is a white dude. You see, most people just aren't as fucking PETTY and HYPERSENSITIVE as you are.

[angelfromanotherpin]

So if you have brought up such a serious issue AT ALL (as you have with this totally non-serious issue), then I will believe that you spend at least some of your time thinking about problems that are important involving people murdering other people. So where is the thread where you talk about half-white half-black Obama killing brown people?[/i]

Okay, I let this pass once, but this is the second time you have spouted this bullshit moral relativism. Pointing out that there are more important subjects to argue on does not refute an argument on the current subject. Using such a non sequitur only damages your credibility. Stop doing that.

[Kaelik]

It's not an attack. It's pointing out an aspect of society that happens to be true, at least in America and much of Europe.

http://www.nymbp.org/reference/WhitePrivilege.pdf

I can't help it if people either don't like reality, or don't like to acknowledge it. I can understand it making people uncomfortable (it made me uncomfortable when I first started looking into it), but that's too bad.

No, that's kind of the point. You aren't pointing to an aspect of society that happens to be true, quite aside from the fact that like 60% of the examples in that article are premised solely on the idea that in a world of racial equality it matters that you are talking to someone of the same or different race, and quite aside from the fact that everything else in the list is pretty much her guess, and much of it clearly not true at all, you aren't just saying that society (in America and most of Europe) benefits white people, you are explicitly saying that A) that, and B) all you people who disagree with me are bad people who are unaware of that advantage and take advantage of it all the time, you bad bad people who think it doesn't matter what race D&D characters are, like anyone ever has given even half a shit about Jozan.

[infected slut princess]

Okay, I let this pass once, but this is the second time you have spouted this bullshit moral relativism. Pointing out that there are more important subjects to argue on does not refute an argument on the current subject. Using such a non sequitur only damages your credibility. Stop doing that.

That's not really about moral relativism, since I am saying "this is REALLY bad, what you are talking about is not REALLY bad" but anyway...

Did yu come into this conversation late or something? Because I am disputing that PoliteNewb's racial diversity in D&D books problem is a problem at all. All his attitude accomplishes is perpetuating the stupid view that races are somehow significantly different from one another.

There are racial issues in the world. And they are serious, like people killing other people for reasons related to race and creed. "Racial representation in D&D books" is NOT a serious racial issue because only fucking ASSHOLES care about it. In other words, it is an issue for racists like PoliteNewb, and I don't think it deserves attention as a racial problem because it trivializes real racial issues.

You see, PoliteNewb is racist for thinking non-white people are so fucking obsessed with skin-color that they can't/won't enjoy something that doesn't doesn't specifically include their race. IN A FANTASY WORLD (i.e. not Earth, with Africa and such places) NO LESS. I can speak for lots of Asians I have gamed with, and they don't give a fuck. I can speak for one black dude I gamed with, and he didn't give a fuck either.

[Neurosis]

Accusing someone of white privilege on the internet because they don't give a shit is even stupider. I may or may not be white, and that may or may not have to do with why I don't give a shit.

I didn't accuse you. I asked if you were white, and pointed out that if you are, it is easier for you to not give a shit.

Leress pointed out he's not white, and he still doesn't give a shit. That's fine. If you're white and don't give a shit, that's fine too...but it's easier for you.

I assure you in this particular incident it's equally easy for me to give a shit regardless of my gender and ethnicity. I fully refute that there is any configuration of racial and/or gender identity that could make me give a fuck about this (non)-issue.

The entire idea of "[RACE/GENDER] privilege" is completely fucking retarded. It is one of the worst ideas ever to come out of sociology/anthropology.

(I'm not opposed to the idea that wealthy and healthy people respectively have privilege and privileged thinking compared to poor and/or sick people. Because unlike any two races you care to compare, wealthy and poor people are inherently unequal; same with healthy and sick people.)

[shadzar]

Hell you might even be white and be discriminated because of that

affirmative action:

how it was supposed to work

can't discriminate against hiring employees based on skin color.

how it really worked/works

sorry, we cant hire you because you arent black. we havent met our quota of minorities yet so need come back another time after we have a few more blacks or mexicans employed.

[Wrathzog]

Don't listen to all those racists-in-denial, PoliteNewb.
We both know what's up.
(Stock in Heterosexual White Males).

There are racial issues in the world. And they are serious, like people killing other people for reasons related to race and creed. "Racial representation in D&D books" is NOT a serious racial issue because only fucking ASSHOLES care about it. In other words, it is an issue for racists like PoliteNewb, and I don't think it deserves attention as a racial problem because it trivializes real racial issues.

I can't tell if you're doing this because you're trying to highlight the parallels between First World Problems and White Privilege... or if you're just absolutely bat-shit.

[ckafrica]

... I assume you just need someone to troll right now, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

"Disorient" does not mean "fits of epileptic rage". I looked at the screen, was surprised and a bit confused, and then chilled out. But that was only once, and if I saw it repeatedly, I can imagine being a bit confused every single time. And that is disorienting. Surprisingly enough, not everyone is an extremist racist killer like you want them to be.

It simply boggles my mind that you don't realize your stated position is so... well racist.
let's go back again to what you wrote:

I'm going to step in here and say that I do think I'd be rather disoriented if most of the actors in TV or the art in my RPGs were primarily non-white. I mean, when I saw Rue in The Hunger Games, I was like "wha? She's black?" and had to check the book to verify that the director did, in fact, do it right.

Now disorientation means:

1. Loss of one's sense of direction, position, or relationship with one's surroundings.
2. Mental confusion or impaired awareness, especially regarding place, time, or personal identity.

so yes you said that the presence of a predominantly non-white characters would cause you to lose your grasp on reality. That your mental faculties can not adequate cope with the concept.

If it bothers you to see large numbers of other ethnicities on TV and it upset you enough when you thought a character was miscast ethinically that you had to go back and check, that is all kinds of messed up. I mean, dear god, how have all the actual ethnic minorities dealt with seeing themselves on TV in disproportionately low numbers for, oh, the entire history of modern mainstream media?

As I'm mentioned before I'm fairly sure your not a crazed hateful racist, and apparently not a conscious one, but dude that is some racist shit.

[Kaelik]

ckafrica, don't be an idiot intentionally. Protip, if you have to spell out the definition of a word someone else used in your post in order for your audience to get what you are trying to attribute to them, you are attributing something they didn't mean.

He is clearly saying that he was surprised to find out that Rue is black, because he expected the character to be white. I'm personally not sure why he expected that, because it's not like having two black people out of 24 is particularly disproportional, but he was not saying that his mental faculties could not cope with a black character existing.

And yes, I expect that most minorities probably react with little to no confusion when they are a minority on TV, because the important part that creates confusion is a violation of norms, not racial affinity. But yes, they might be (when not watching fantasy of future history or sci fi) be disoriented by under representation. Just as they probably would be by over representation. I bet if I made a movie about the zombie apocalypse that occurs in Atlanta present day, that black people would become disoriented if there were no black survivors, but they'd also be disoriented if every single survivor was black too.

Now I do wonder why in the great pre hunger games war they killed all the Asians and Arabs, and then put all the black people in only one district.

But then again, I also don't understand why they thought that putting the people who build trains all in one district is a good idea either.

[...You Lost Me]

Thanks, Kaelik. You said what I said almost entirely. And I was "disoriented", because I the whole book thinking prim was some very-definitely-white kid (my post meant to point out that I probably did this because I'm white and people who are white are what I naturally imagine). I saw her as a black kid and it wasn't what I imagined reading the book, which "disoriented" me.

[Lago PARANOIA]

I assure you in this particular incident it's equally easy for me to give a shit regardless of my gender and ethnicity.

Okay? So what does your personal apathy does that have to do with the reality of privilege? Is it okay to exercise or allow the exercise of unfair advantage if no one complains? I mean, that whole idea is fucked up on several levels.

[*] Oftentimes people don't complain precisely because of the chilling effect of being called in various ways uppity or worse. For example, if you as a woman complain about 'slut shaming' that's like painting a target on your face for being thought of or even called a slut.

[*] Generally, the people who are exercising privilege also have access to the channels of discussion through wealth or by the sheer weight of numbers. It doesn't even have to be outright censorship, but if the people holding the levers to these things don't see or don't care, then it creates the false impression of consent.

[*] And here's the fucked up part, if privilege gets exercised enough oftentimes the subject just ends up thinking that this is normal or even desirable. But it's not.

The entire idea of "[RACE/GENDER] privilege" is completely fucking retarded. It is one of the worst ideas ever to come out of sociology/anthropology.

What part of the concept of privilege do you disagree with, if not the whole thing? And why?

[Neurosis]

Okay? So what does your personal apathy does that have to do with the reality of privilege? Is it okay to exercise or allow the exercise of unfair advantage if no one complains? I mean, that whole idea is fucked up on several levels.

Oftentimes people don't complain precisely because of the chilling effect of being called in various ways uppity or worse. For example, if you as a woman complain about 'slut shaming' that's like painting a target on your face for being thought of or even called a slut.

Generally, the people who are exercising privilege also have access to the channels of discussion through wealth or by the sheer weight of numbers. It doesn't even have to be outright censorship, but if the people holding the levers to these things don't see or don't care, then it creates the false impression of consent.

And here's the fucked up part, if privilege gets exercised enough oftentimes the subject just ends up thinking that this is normal or even desirable. But it's not.

I honestly...and this is rare for me...I don't think I'm going to dignify that with much of a response. Let me just say...

Absolutely none of these points or questions are germane to the specific issue that was raised here in this topic, which completely doesn't fucking matter at all.

What part of the concept of privilege do you disagree with, if not the whole thing? And why?

Too big of a question for a gaming related forum, sorry.

[infected slut princess]

[*] Oftentimes people don't complain precisely because of the chilling effect of being called in various ways uppity or worse. For example, if you as a woman complain about 'slut shaming' that's like painting a target on your face for being thought of or even called a slut.

Maybe you don't interact with a lot of real life women, but... women who are non-sluts never complain about "slut shaming". Only sluts actually do that.

[Username17]

Answering that you aren't answering is just being a douchebag. Yes, last time I checked, I still have substantial social advantages in almost every country by being a White man. I make more money doing the same job as a Black man or a White woman, my statements are more likely to be accepted as true by strangers. I don't even know what possible argument you could have that "White/Male Privilege" are things that don't exist. They've been measured. They exist.

The question of what to do about it is more open. But you're just objectively wrong if you claim it isn't a real thing.

-Username17

[Kaelik]

Maybe you don't interact with a lot of real life women, but... women who are non-sluts never complain about "slut shaming". Only sluts actually do that.

/cry

[Lago PARANOIA]

I honestly...and this is rare for me...I don't think I'm going to dignify that with much of a response. Let me just say...

Absolutely none of these points or questions are germane to the specific issue that was raised here in this topic, which completely doesn't fucking matter at all.

Oh, so they weren't? You don't see how the question of 'Sure, there's an unnecessary racial imbalance but who gives a shit' doesn't relate to the broader question of privilege?


I'll reiterate my main point: D&D does show racial privilege. It is a lot more progressive and inclusive than most media works (it'd be in the bottom 5% if you were ranking works) but it still exists. But really, in the grand scheme of fantasy, let alone media it's a total 'whooptie shit'. It's potential a topic of interest, sure, especially if you want to get into advertising or expanding the playerbase, but there are much better causes for people to focus their attention on.

What caught my interest was the denial of privilege as a concept. If you don't grasp what this concept means -- and it's very counter-intuitive, I admit -- then you're not going to get understand why people see this concept as important.

[Sunwitch]

[*] Oftentimes people don't complain precisely because of the chilling effect of being called in various ways uppity or worse. For example, if you as a woman complain about 'slut shaming' that's like painting a target on your face for being thought of or even called a slut.

Maybe you don't interact with a lot of real life women, but... women who are non-sluts never complain about "slut shaming". Only sluts actually do that.

I really hope you weren't aiming at a sound argument here, since "if you think shaming people for being a slut is bad, you are a slut" is really fucked up.

Even if it were only sexually-promiscuous women reacting against the insidious concept of a "slut" (which is far from the case), that wouldn't make them wrong for doing so. The fact that reacting against slut-shaming (a thing that actively happens all the time and only requires a discriminatory eye to notice) provokes you immediately to write off anyone involved as a slut is a problem on your end.

It's kind of baffling how one thread can be so full of people being embarrassingly wrong about things.

[Ted the Flayer]

[*] Oftentimes people don't complain precisely because of the chilling effect of being called in various ways uppity or worse. For example, if you as a woman complain about 'slut shaming' that's like painting a target on your face for being thought of or even called a slut.

Maybe you don't interact with a lot of real life women, but... women who are non-sluts never complain about "slut shaming". Only sluts actually do that.

There should be slut-encouraging instead. I can't speak for everyone, but I know my life would be infinitely better if women put out easier. I'm just saying...

[erik]

You guys have it all wrong. That prime competitor for the title of the Douchiest No True Scotsman was clearly satire.

Unless ISP is a totally idiotic douchebag.

=-D