D&D Racial Diversity Bullshit

[OgreBattle]

Hmmm... Search: "St. Maurice, 0 results"

So I guess out of that entire article and dozens of replies, nobody mentioned "hey, medieval Europeans had artwork of Africans in european attire too"

St. Maurice was a Roman commander from Egypt, he was martyrd when his legion (who had secretly coverted) refused to attack fellow Christians.

Here's a bust of him in Germany from like... 1200 years ago?

[shadzar]

Well, and like I said, race is, anthropologically, and biologically speaking, a meaningless concept. It's essentially another word for culture, because the curliest, darkest skinned, heaviest boned "white" guy, is going to have curlier hair, darker skin, and have heavier bones than the straightest haired, lightest skinned, thinnest boned "black guy."

the sad thing is race is a misnomer...we would all be different species, because we are ALL the human "race". no other species has races.

also in the good 'ol days ALL art was black and white, so color it in however you wanted. that is why i have a MM2 from 2st with very strange colors peoples and creatures. but for $1 i didnt mind having a spare someone's child used for a coloring book since they stayed in the lines.

i think they should return to line art or B&W art to end this stupidity as well paying overpriced artists for full color as well the ink for it too. let people go buy a box of crayons and return to a simpler and cheaper time.

being medieval fantasy at the roots, i wonder how people would feel if a race of Moors popped up in D&D? i really dont think it would satisfy anyone anymore than Redgar or Ember did....

[hyzmarca]

Technically, most the humanoid races are actually homo sapiens since they can produce viable offspring with each other.

[tussock]

Meh, you can have different species that are inter-fertile now, as long as their gene pools are normally independent and free to drift apart. Real world cross-breeds are fairly common in a lot of species, they just haven't been separate long enough to lose fertility.

So technically, Elves, Humans, Orcs, Ogres, and the Goblinoids are all descended from a common ancestor, probably less than a million years ago, with the Dwarves, Gnomes, Halflings, and others a bit earlier. Elf sub-races maybe half that considering their long life.

[Neurosis]

Mark me down in the "not giving a shit" camp.

[PoliteNewb]

But... there's actually a very good explanation for the lack of minorities in Fantasy RPG art. ...

(cut rambling discourse on a really shitty explanation of why artists are too lazy to draw non-caucasians)

I'm not saying it's ok, or good, (though I don't necessarily think it's a huge problem), I'm saying it's the way it is.

1.) I'm glad you agree it's not good or okay.
2.) You probably don't think it's a huge problem because (I'm going to guess here) you're white.
3.) Saying "that's the way it is" is meaningless. Back in the day, should people have said "welp, sure it's horrible and wrong to enslave people and treat women as chattel, but hey, that's the way it is"? The only way you stop doing wrong stuff is to agree that "that's the way it is" is a really shitty reason for leaving things the way they are.

Mark me down in the "not giving a shit" camp.

Simple question: are you caucasian?
If so, it is incredibly easy for you to not give a shit, because it does not impact you one iota.

[Leress]

Simple question: are you caucasian?

No, and I don't give a shit.

This is mainly because I personally don't need the art to reflect my ethnicity for me to be connected to it or want to play it. Also all the times that I've seen games try to make that a selling point, they offer very little else.

[Prak]

But... there's actually a very good explanation for the lack of minorities in Fantasy RPG art. ...

(cut rambling discourse on a really shitty explanation of why artists are too lazy to draw non-caucasians)

I'm not saying it's ok, or good, (though I don't necessarily think it's a huge problem), I'm saying it's the way it is.

1.) I'm glad you agree it's not good or okay.
2.) You probably don't think it's a huge problem because (I'm going to guess here) you're white.
3.) Saying "that's the way it is" is meaningless. Back in the day, should people have said "welp, sure it's horrible and wrong to enslave people and treat women as chattel, but hey, that's the way it is"? The only way you stop doing wrong stuff is to agree that "that's the way it is" is a really shitty reason for leaving things the way they are.

Mark me down in the "not giving a shit" camp.

Simple question: are you caucasian?
If so, it is incredibly easy for you to not give a shit, because it does not impact you one iota.

Ok, PoliteNewb, you seem to think it's a big deal, so tell me, why is it a big deal? Why the fuck does it matter what colour Regdar*'s or Hennet's skin is? Are you seriously incapable of identifying with characters of a different skin colour?

Yes, bitch and moan about white privilege. I'll get right on giving a shit about that when any discussion of race issues doesn't turn into a bunch of "all caucasians are dicks" sentiments after a few posts.

*fun fact, look at Regdar in the 3.5 phb. That's not a white boy. Skin is pretty ruddy, and he has a very broad face.

In fact on that note....
PHB 3.5 Iconic humans:
Jozan- White
Regdar- Not sure, but either mongol, or mixed black.
Ember- Black
Alhandra- looks pretty asian to me.
Hennet- Again, I'm going to say asian.
Naull- definitely asian.
Unnamed guy on the first page of Equipment- white. Ditto Combat, and the Height chart humans
Kerwyn- Ok, I'm starting to second guess myself and wonder if "asian" is my go to for humans who aren't white, and aren't black. He's not white, or if Wood meant him to be... Wood needs to practice Caucasian features.

So, that's Five white guys (and girls) and 6 non-white humans in D&D 3.5's PHB. Unless people want to argue on my determinations of race, which I chalk up as a point in favour of the "race is fucking meaningless, put the damned thing to bed already" argument.

[shadzar]

Prak they cant. if anyone REALLY wanted to complain about race in the almost 40 years of D&D then maybe they woul.d have done so LOONG ago...

Blackmoor


that is all.

[Neurosis]

Simple question: are you caucasian?
If so, it is incredibly easy for you to not give a shit, because it does not impact you one iota.

You know...this very idea is racist.

[Prak]

Simple question: are you caucasian?
If so, it is incredibly easy for you to not give a shit, because it does not impact you one iota.

You know...this very idea is racist.

haven't you heard Schwarzkopf? If it's discriminating against Whitey, it can't be racist, because only white folks are racist. :rolleyes

[Wrathzog]

http://www.derailingfordummies.com/menu.html

Pertinent?

[infected slut princess]

PoliteNewb, you really need to go fuck yourself. Comparing the representation of skin color in cheesy fantasy art to enslaving people -- seriously, go fuck yourself. Why dont you focus some energy on a REAL "racism" issue, like half-white half-black Obama murdering children with brown skin. Let me guess, you majored in "Feminist Studies" and "Marxist Class ANALysis" in university.

[Lago PARANOIA]

haven't you heard Schwarzkopf? If it's discriminating against Whitey, it can't be racist, because only white folks are racist. :rolleyes

Look, I personally don't give a shit since D&D is a lot more racially inclusive than most media works. I mean, it's still disproportionately white, but if you were going to compile and rank a list of games and media D&D would seriously rank in the bottom 20th percentile in racial exclusiveness. 3E and 4E D&D is less white than friggin' 4th Edition Shadowrun. It's a thing, don't get me wrong, but in the grand scheme of things it's a waste of time and energy.

But I would like to point out is that even when people who are stung by the thoughtless exercise of privilege don't bring it up (or rather, learn to ignore it), they are very irritated at the denialism. Trust me, women will be a lot more offended by your refusing to see calling grown women 'girls' as offensive than they will actually be by you doing so. Your gay buddy will probably ignore that reflexive twitch when he talks about marrying his BF, but trying to rationalize your reaction will stick in his head a lot more and just makes you look like an asshole. In situations like 'D&D and Mukokuseki' it's not the privilege that irks people so much as the sniveling and defensiveness about being called out on it.

[Taishan]

Blackmoor


that is all.

Isn't that where Rick Perry used to game?

[theye1]

Still better then White Wolf, does anybody remember the Gypsy book?

[PoliteNewb]

Ok, PoliteNewb, you seem to think it's a big deal, so tell me, why is it a big deal? Why the fuck does it matter what colour Regdar*'s or Hennet's skin is? Are you seriously incapable of identifying with characters of a different skin colour?

I don't think it's a big deal, personally. But if some people (who have better reason than me) think it is, telling them "oh, you're just whining, it's no big deal" is lazy and offensive. I don't like to see that crap, so I point it out.

Whether or not any 1 individual is personally capable of identifying with characters of another race is irrelevant. The point is, white people are seldom asked to do that...certainly not to the extent that minorities are. Whenever everyone agrees "it doesn't matter what color the hero is"...he hero ends up white. That can get a little old after a while.

You seriously think that "people more easily identify with those like themselves" is a controversial statement? And that putting more POC instead of white folks in fantasy book art is somehow offensive?

Yes, bitch and moan about white privilege. I'll get right on giving a shit about that when any discussion of race issues doesn't turn into a bunch of "all caucasians are dicks" sentiments after a few posts.

If you don't want people to say "all caucasians are dicks", it would help if you didn't act like a dick. For instance, when someone points out that they see something as a problem, you could say something other than "I don't give a shit, quit talking about it".

I'm not bitching or moaning about white privelege. I'm pointing out that it exists. That bother you?

As for racial identity of the iconics...I think you're nuts about Regdar. Dude looks white to me. Let's go down:

Krusk: inhuman, no comparable racial identity
Gimble: gnome...but white, definitely
Jozan: human, white
Vadania: elf...looks almost albino to me, but definitely more "white" than person of color
Tordek: dwarf...but white, definitely
Regdar: human, and I think white
Ember: human, black
Alhandra: human, looks hispanic to me
Soveliss: elf, but white
Lidda: halfling, but white
Hennet: human, asian
Mialee: elf...looks native american more than anything to me
Nebin: gnome, looks white to me
Devis: half-elf, but white
Naull: human, asian
Eberk: dwarf, but white
Kerwyn: human, looks white to me

I count 17 iconics, of which there are...5 people of color, classifying generously. Ignoring Krusk, that's twice as many who I look at and say 'white person'.

Simple question: are you caucasian?
If so, it is incredibly easy for you to not give a shit, because it does not impact you one iota.

You know...this very idea is racist.

Oh wow, what? You are seriously debating the idea that caucasians are less affected by and care less about racial issues than people of color? Really?

White is the default in America. This is simply a fact. White people find it much easier to "not give a shit" about race than any other racial type in America.

But please, point out to me how pointing out white privelege is racist. I can't wait to hear.

PoliteNewb, you really need to go fuck yourself. Comparing the representation of skin color in cheesy fantasy art to enslaving people -- seriously, go fuck yourself. Why dont you focus some energy on a REAL "racism" issue, like half-white half-black Obama murdering children with brown skin. Let me guess, you majored in "Feminist Studies" and "Marxist Class ANALysis" in university.

1.) The only comparison I made (or meant to make) was they were both issues where people said "just the way it is, no point complaining about it". I did not mean to imply they were of the same magnitude or moral impact. And it's irrelevant. The overall point is clear: saying "oh well, too bad" is absurd, and if mankind did it we would have no progress.

2.) Saying "why don't you go focus on a REAL issue" is a classic derail tactic. How do you know I don't? The fact that there are other problems bigger than this in no way means this is not a problem.

3.) Nice (attempted) ad hominem, but my college studies don't really have anything to do with this discussion.

Honestly, the fact that the statement "more minorities would be more comfortable playing D&D if you included more POC in the art" gets people so riled up says more about white privelege than just about anything else I could say.

[...You Lost Me]

I'm going to step in here and say that I do think I'd be rather disoriented if most of the actors in TV or the art in my RPGs were primarily non-white. I mean, when I saw Rue in The Hunger Games, I was like "wha? She's black?" and had to check the book to verify that the director did, in fact, do it right.

I default to "mostly white people exist anywhere" in the average setting and assume that the setting is simply not average if it is predominated by people who aren't white. However, despite the immediate strangeness of the situation, I don't think I'd actually be all that mad if most of the art I saw or most of the movies I watched featured non-white people.

And PoliteNewb, the original argument wasn't actually railing on "Hey guys draw less white people", it was railing on "Hey writers control your artists because you can do that". Only after you exploded in "ASINER;PVO4KJFME0;OI8UH;G WE RACISM FIEHNJEC;OIUEHF;2W3E'[;0" did people start taking more extreme stances, and that was probably just to oppose you because you're being a dick. And I know I can't actually stop you, but consider this a polite request to stop going on about white privilege. It's like listening to the racist version of Crissa.

[shadzar]

Mialee: elf...looks native american more than anything to me

go fuck yourself.

or have phonelobster fuck you up the ass, or you fuck him up the ass, i dont give a shit either way.

the above statement of yours is EXACTLY why real world diversity isnt present in RPG art, because real world races dont exist int he fucking fantasy world, because comments like that are EXTREMELY insulting when you start stereo typing people based on looks.

so when you choke down the barrel of cocks you are sucking on, then think about exactly what you said, and how it relates to the issue at hand.

1. fantasy game world X isnt Sol-3
2. you might as well have art with people in black-face, since stereotypical art will offend people that dont fit that mold of the stereotype, OR a stereotype in which you (in this case you specifically and in general) TOTALLY fuck up representing even if the attempt was intended to be innocuous.

[Korwin]

White is the default in America. This is simply a fact. White people find it much easier to "not give a shit" about race than any other racial type in America.

Ah, I see. You are saying the whole world is like America?

---

That said, white is the default in at least this part of Europe, too.
For that matter, more than in America.


But another question (looking upthread), why is it the bad caucascian imperialist and not the bad european imperialist*? (Hello Spain and Portugal.)

* Not that Austria was that succesfull in getting colonies.

[Kaelik]

If you don't want people to say "all caucasians are dicks", it would help if you didn't act like a dick.

...

I'm not bitching or moaning about white privelege. I'm pointing out that it exists. That bother you?

See, that's the funny thing, you called people a dick before they acted like dicks. (I mean, not the Prak isn't an annoying racist or anything, he is.)

When you "point out that white privileged exists" you are calling people privileged. You are deliberately and directly attacking all the white people, so it really shouldn't surprise you that it provokes responses.

It is in fact true that the largest determining factor in personal success in America is your parents income, but I'm not surprised that people with rich parents get upset when I tell them that they aren't better than poor people, just luckier.

And unlike the success of people with rich parents, your privileged insult is less clear that it's true, because privilege requires not just getting some random benefits from being white, but it also requires being expectant of those benefits and not recognizing them. So every time you bring up white privilege you are claiming that the specific bad whiteies you are talking to (but also all the other ones) are unaware of the problems of race.

[ckafrica]

I'm going to step in here and say that I do think I'd be rather disoriented if most of the actors in TV or the art in my RPGs were primarily non-white. I mean, when I saw Rue in The Hunger Games, I was like "wha? She's black?" and had to check the book to verify that the director did, in fact, do it right.

Seriously dude? Disorienting? Like it would fuck with your head so bad that you wouldn't know up from down? You were perturbed by the ethnicity of an actress playing a character so much that you had to verify whether the author intended it?

Have you had to program BET off your TV so as not to get the spins? Did you write a letter of protest when Mos Def was cast as Ford Prefect?

I'm sure that you're probably not a KKK member or do anything actively racist but that whole paragraph there is absurdly racist. It's demonstrative of the far more common passive racism that denies its racism due to exceptions (I'm certainly not racist, why my maid Shawniqua and her family are so nice and we always give them a turkey on thanksgiving) Its PC racism, but racism nonetheless.

[shadzar]

I'm going to step in here and say that I do think I'd be rather disoriented if most of the actors in TV or the art in my RPGs were primarily non-white. I mean, when I saw Rue in The Hunger Games, I was like "wha? She's black?" and had to check the book to verify that the director did, in fact, do it right.

Seriously dude? Disorienting? Like it would fuck with your head so bad that you wouldn't know up from down? You were perturbed by the ethnicity of an actress playing a character so much that you had to verify whether the author intended it?

Have you had to program BET off your TV so as not to get the spins? Did you write a letter of protest when Mos Def was cast as Ford Prefect?

why was Nick Fury changed? to accommodate a different group of people. did it matter? no.

Why was Kingpin black in Daredevil? to have an actor that would fit the role. Where are the Daredevil sequels in which Kingpin works with former Aryan supremacist and Nazi the Red Skull? would anybody buy Micheal Clark Duncan playing Kingpin working with an Aryan supremacist?

Was Earthsea writer/author pissed off when SciFi cast certain people in the parts of the wrong appearance because it changed the way the story appeared? was she pissed off when Studio Ghibli also changed the people in their animated version?

is the word "Niger" used in every televised production of Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn where Jim is present? no, but is Jim even white, or appears to be white? no.

being "colorblind" in movies might make sense to some, but there are verifiable cases on ALL sides, where changing a race to something else insults more than just the fan or author, but the people themselves.

take DBZ and other movies made off anime that use white americans/europeans FAILING where the property was created.

once you remove a person form their environment then you lose that environment and the reason for the person to be who they are and any way to relate to them accordingly.

which comes back to... why would Asians be in D&D, if the world of D&D has no Asia? why do we expect "black", "white", or "red" skinned people, when green, blue, and yellow could work just as well.

the art may depict some colors over others, but that is artistic licensing and familiarity with the subject matter. "Human" in D&D dont have a defined skin color, only the right number of appendages.

also when it comes to movies, more people are becoming pissed off at needless change in the screenplay. Robin Hood wasnt as good as they thought because it didnt follow traditional routes, though people didnt want the traditional. so it isnt all about race, it is about needless change.

[Neurosis]

The very idea of accusing a white person of white privilege because they're white is racist.

Accusing someone of white privilege on the internet because they don't give a shit is even stupider. I may or may not be white, and that may or may not have to do with why I don't give a shit.

[ishy]

Hell you might even be white and be discriminated because of that, like what is going on right now in South Africa. Where you basically need a non-white business partner to be able to get anything done at all.