| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
John Magnum
Knight
Joined: 14 Feb 2012
Posts: 476
|
 Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:00 pm Post subject: |
  |
|
I would suggest that "They become your buddy" should not be a generic possible outcome of your combat engine. It might not be completely impossible, there are examples where after a fight you respect your opponent so much that you become allies or something, or whatever the hell happened in They Live, but it's pretty exceptional and I don't know that it's great to have that be something you can reliably expect to end up with as an outcome of your combat minigame.
_________________
-JM |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
FrankTrollman
Serious Badass
Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 20380
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Whatever wrote: | | Right. You can make a case for Charm coming after conditions like Dazzled, Fatigued, Confused, even Shaken (good cop/bad cop style). But you don't want it coming after Bloodied or Entangled. Unless you're playing FATAL. |
I would go so far as to say that abilities that don't trigger off the bloodied condition is a good disadvantage for an ability to have. Let's be honest here: charm is better than fear. But the fact that you can hit someone with panic after they are bloodied is a big advantage considering how easy it is to hand out the Bloodied condition. The fact that you have to have some sort of setup off a short list of starter conditions that doesn't include simply hammer blows to use your charm power makes it interesting and situational. It means that Obi-Wan-Enchanter is going to end up going full Scarecrow a lot of the time rather than just turning on the Persuadotron and walking around.
-Frank |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
deanruel87
Knight
Joined: 12 May 2008
Posts: 484
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| FrankTrollman wrote: |
Because any system that requires you to, or hell even allows you to beat someone with actual hammers until they are weak enough to accept a sandwich of friendship and be your best bud is fucking retarded and unworthy of serious discussion.
-Frank |
Oh my god you're totally right. The concept of beating someone physically until they are more pliable and weak to make them change sides or do something for you is totally insane! There's literally no precedent to that concept either in fantasy or the real world!
No. The Strangers have to demoralize Murdock and cast Sleep on him twice before it finally takes. Making someone weak before effects go off is in no way an unreasonable concept and it seems far less burdensome than a system where you need to remember that your Force Choke would work on an entangled Ogre but not a dazzled Roc.
Additionally the status pile system ALSO allows hammering someone into being charmed it just does it in a weirder way. When my Warblade uses "Hammer Blow" to Daze a target and Daze opens him up to be Fatigued, Petrified, or Dominated then you have a system with identical problems but applied in a far more obtuse manner. What your saying with your complaint is essentially "I don't want the status system to offend my personal sensibilities at any point" which cannot be done because everyone has their own vantage point on these things. And even if you made sure every power ever produced for this system EVER was done just right in your opinion with no possible tree of effects seeming weird then it still won't measure up to what you want. Because someone is gonna get weirded out that Web helps you Petrify people, even if it made sense to you.
Now moving on powers not having a bloodied effect is a good idea. Just generally making not all attack powers identical is good at base but saying that Domination only works on opponents you could just as easily kill is reasonable. In my systems lingo, it would only have an initial and a defeated effect but not a bloodied effect.
_________________
| DSMatticus wrote: | | Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. I am filled with an unfathomable hatred. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MfA
Knight-Baron
Joined: 17 Jan 2009
Posts: 504
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:51 pm Post subject: Re: Spells using the Bloodied condition |
|
|
| sigma999 wrote: | | The concept of a Bloodied character in 4e is possibly one of the few good parts to come of the game. In fact I estimate it would work nicely with Save or Suck effects, maybe even Save or Dies, in 3e. |
Using bloodied for this solves the SoD problem, but it leaves padded sumo on the table ... yes, there should be a condition track to make sticking a SoD easier after an opponent is softened up but you should find a way to incorporate level differences as well.
It's a shame to solve only one problem, when it is so interconnected with another problem ...
PS. I have no problem with charm+hammers, charm is not a shift in attitude but rather a fundamental rewriting off the opponent's behavior regardless of previous disposition ... a weakened state makes it more likely to stick, regardless the source IMO.
Last edited by MfA on Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:59 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Magnum
Knight
Joined: 14 Feb 2012
Posts: 476
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| deanruel87 wrote: | | Oh my god you're totally right. The concept of beating someone physically until they are more pliable and weak to make them change sides or do something for you is totally insane! There's literally no precedent to that concept either in fantasy or the real world! |
Are you illiterate or disingenuous?
@MfA: The problem is that in this new system a couple hammer blows DOES make a difference--it makes it EASIER to charm him. That's actually more risible than there being zero correlation between hitting someone with a hammer and using a magic charm spell.
_________________
-JM
Last edited by John Magnum on Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MfA
Knight-Baron
Joined: 17 Jan 2009
Posts: 504
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| What I meant is that the fact that the hammer blows came from the caster or his allies shouldn't really matter ... his resilience is weakened, that's what matters. I just worded it poorly. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Stubbazubba
Knight
Joined: 07 May 2011
Posts: 496
Location: Nanjing, PRC
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Charm effects as in Charm Person? That would make perfect sense to work better when Bloodied; it's magic, you're resisting it out of sheer willpower, which, when you're busy trying to keep your body moving on sheer willpower, is split between staying alive and resisting magic.
If you mean mundane charm, then still, convincing someone to listen to you is going to work better if they realize that they have more to lose, i.e., if you've already taken out huge chunks of my health and have proven that you have the capability to take the rest of it, then of course I'll be more willing to listen to your proposal, in order to avoid death. They may not become your friend, as in Charm Person, but that's magic anyway, it's a whole 'nother deal. What Charm effects will do is shift your relationship from 'stabbing' to 'negotiation.' Which is exactly what you want the party Face to be able to do, whether it be through being a nice guy, or being so intimidating that they are cowed into submission.
So Frank is right in that mundane Charm effects shouldn't make someone your friend after being hit, but that doesn't even apply. Either it's magical Charm, in which case it's actually magic vs. willpower and working better when Bloodied makes sense, or it's mundane Charm and the result is not the same as Charm person, it's just 'turn the conflict into a negotiation,' which also makes sense to be easier when Bloodied.
Last edited by Stubbazubba on Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sashi
Knight-Baron
Joined: 01 Oct 2010
Posts: 505
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | So Frank is right in that mundane Charm effects shouldn't make someone your friend after being hit, but that doesn't even apply. Either it's magical Charm, in which case it's actually magic vs. willpower and working better when Bloodied makes sense, or it's mundane Charm and the result is not the same as Charm person, it's just 'turn the conflict into a negotiation,' which also makes sense to be easier when Bloodied. |
Why do you want to forcibly make the DMF? "Magic gets to ignore the game rules because I like to fellate wizards"
It's not reasonable to have "make someone your friend" work after you've stabbed them. It's completely reasonable to have your minions massage a man with wrenches until you can use "make someone your thrall" on them. But if it's reasonable for a Telepath to dominate someone out of the Bloodied condition, then it's reasonable for a Thief to blackjack someone unconscious out of the charm track. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hyzmarca
Duke
Joined: 14 Mar 2011
Posts: 1012
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
| John Magnum wrote: | | deanruel87 wrote: | | Oh my god you're totally right. The concept of beating someone physically until they are more pliable and weak to make them change sides or do something for you is totally insane! There's literally no precedent to that concept either in fantasy or the real world! |
Are you illiterate or disingenuous?
|
Battered person syndrome is an actual thing. The ability to make someone love you by beating them to a pulp is not at all unrealistic because its something that real people do all the time.
Of course, it generally takes multiple beating-reconciliation cycles over a period of time in a controlled environment to get the job done right, but compressing that into a shorter timeframe is perfectly valid, particularly since defeat-means-friendship has been a part of the genre since Gilgamesh laid the smackdown upon Enkidu. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Leress
Duke
Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 1579
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
So the question is do we want friendship through defeat?
_________________
"Excuse me. You got your penis in my woman. Correct yourself."
| Koumei wrote: | | I am disappointed in Santorum: he should carry his dead election campaign to term! |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PhoneLobster
Prince
Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 4229
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Leress wrote: | | So the question is do we want friendship through defeat? |
Do you not watch anime?
Hell. Adventure fiction in general?
_________________
| tzor wrote: | | Enjoy the hell you have created for yourselves. |
  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Leress
Duke
Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 1579
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| PhoneLobster wrote: |
Do you not watch anime?
Hell. Adventure fiction in general? |
Yes, I do. I know it happens a lot. I'm just asking do you want that to happen in this 'game'.
_________________
"Excuse me. You got your penis in my woman. Correct yourself."
| Koumei wrote: | | I am disappointed in Santorum: he should carry his dead election campaign to term! |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John Magnum
Knight
Joined: 14 Feb 2012
Posts: 476
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
The thing is, though, even when friendship through defeat is a thing, it's not in the cards for every dude you fight. If you want a character who gets beaten by the PCs and is like "Whoa I am so impressed with your martial prowess can I join up with you", the MC can just write that character. If you actually give the enchanter the ability to follow the "beat someone to a pulp -> recruit them" track on every single opponent, things get doofy.
_________________
-JM |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Seerow
Knight-Baron
Joined: 03 Apr 2011
Posts: 673
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
| John Magnum wrote: | | The thing is, though, even when friendship through defeat is a thing, it's not in the cards for every dude you fight. If you want a character who gets beaten by the PCs and is like "Whoa I am so impressed with your martial prowess can I join up with you", the MC can just write that character. If you actually give the enchanter the ability to follow the "beat someone to a pulp -> recruit them" track on every single opponent, things get doofy. |
On the other hand, it does give potential for mundane minion-mancy, which is an area they generally lack in. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Winnah
Duke
Joined: 15 Feb 2011
Posts: 1016
Location: Oz
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
At first I thought this thread was about Blood Mages damaging themselves to heighten the effects they produce.
Any thoughts on mechanics whereby certain character types benefit from inflicting condition tracks on themselves?
A few examples come to mind:
D&D 3.0/Dragon Age style Blood Mage. Messing up your own Health track in order to try and do the same to the normal targets of your spells.
A Paladin or Priest with some kind of Martyr ability. Basically a chance to absorb condition tracts from an ally. Perhaps even transfer them back onto enemies at a higher level.
Berserker types might enjoy a Frenzy type ability. Allowing a staggered onset time for certain condition tracks, perhaps even scaling bonuses in combat when they are afflicted.
Last edited by Winnah on Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
FrankTrollman
Serious Badass
Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 20380
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
I'm just going to ignore any further attempts to integrate hit point damage into the diplomacy minigame, because it's so obviously retarded that it doesn't deserve even as much pointing and laughing as it has already received. Civilized conversation is in no way benefited by repeatedly stabbing people to near death in the middle of it.
| Winnah wrote: | | Any thoughts on mechanics whereby certain character types benefit from inflicting condition tracks on themselves? |
Well, that's classic Drain mechanics right there. You get a large effect in excahnge for providing yourself with a penalty that lasts until the end of combat. It rewards pulling out your big nukes when you think the fight is nearly over or when you think it's about to be over for you. Because the less time you spend in the current conflict the greater the rewards of your super move are compared to the ongoing cost of laboring under the penalty inflicted.
Giving out "Finishing Moves" that slapped the user with a condition but also were good at taking out enemies would encourage people to use these dramatic maneuvers when they thought it would end the fight. A lot of people like that dynamic, which is why it gets used in cartoons a lot.
-Frank |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
deanruel87
Knight
Joined: 12 May 2008
Posts: 484
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
| John Magnum wrote: |
Are you illiterate or disingenuous? |
Neither? But I invite you to add something to the discussion by telling me why -you- think this is so, ideally in a way that is able to be understood and possibly rebutted.
_________________
| DSMatticus wrote: | | Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. I am filled with an unfathomable hatred. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
FrankTrollman
Serious Badass
Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 20380
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
Diplomacy!
Seriously: shut the fuck up about your stupid idea, because it is insultingly stupid.
-Frank |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sigma999
Prince
Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 4251
Location: MD, USA
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Leress wrote: | | So the question is do we want friendship through defeat? |
I'll allow it.
Subdual damage ahoy. Then comes the Charms. You could even have the Intimidate skill modified to deal subdual. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
FrankTrollman
Serious Badass
Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 20380
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 8:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
| sigma999 wrote: | | Leress wrote: | | So the question is do we want friendship through defeat? |
I'll allow it.
Subdual damage ahoy. Then comes the Charms. You could even have the Intimidate skill modified to deal subdual. |
It would be OK if you could force someone you had beaten on into a "truce" and then do normal diplomacy from a neutral or wary position. However, if your game system supports literal forcible rape as a normal and even expected part of the diplomacy mini-game, you have achieved levels of repulsive fuckery that are on par with FATAL.
-Frank |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PhoneLobster
Prince
Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 4229
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
Or you could do it like charm person and your end state is a broad motivation change and your alternative to an entirely wasteful "diplomacy mini game" is essentially MTP very strongly informed by that broad motivational change.
Having a hole fucking complex combat substituting defeating your enemies with "and now you must play Franks stupid complex diplomacy mini-game or get nothing" is not rewarding or practical what the fuck does your diplomacy mini game at that stage do that is worth adding a whole extra minigame.
Remember if your mini game adds complexity it must add rewards if your added complexity is just to take things away it will NOT be well received by your players.
Meanwhile HP damage contributing to all combat defeat states and charm person end states have clear game play benefits, are accepted by almost everyone on this thread and everywhere else in the universe other than you, and actually provide appropriate rewards for player investments. What have you got? Bald faced burning strawman accusations about rape how much more of a dumb fucking asshole can you be?
edit: In fact this rape/FATAL strawman is so disgustingly stupid and offensive that it bears further criticism.
How DARE Frank pull out shit like that. Because you know what. There is absolutely no mechanical support for rape being discussed on this thread. ZERO. No anal circumference attributes and other FATAL-esque contributions. If THIS is Frank's mechanical standard for what constitutes mechanical support for "beat up and rape a character" then normal D&D combat works like that and is exactly the same as playing fatal... because you COULD just beat people unconscious and rape them...
Seriously. I've been telling people for ages how far over the deep end Frank has gone in his rabid and irrational grognard denialism on social mechanics. This is thread, including his premature ejaculation of a crap image macro, is fucking proof.
_________________
| tzor wrote: | | Enjoy the hell you have created for yourselves. |
Last edited by PhoneLobster on Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:10 pm; edited 4 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
FrankTrollman
Serious Badass
Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 20380
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| PhoneLobster wrote: | | How DARE Frank pull out shit like that. Because you know what. There is absolutely no mechanical support for rape being discussed on this thread. |
Dude. You were saying that an outcome of "make target want to have sex with you" should be advanced by "inflicting hit point damage on the target". If you want to explain to me how that is different from having a rape minigame, I am all ears.
Because right now Deanrule and you are advocating in apparent seriousness that punching princesses in the stomach be a viable way to seduce them. That appears on first, second, and eighth glance to be a rape minigame.
-Frank |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lago PARANOIA
Overlord
Joined: 25 Sep 2008
Posts: 7889
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| FrankTrollman wrote: | Giving out "Finishing Moves" that slapped the user with a condition but also were good at taking out enemies would encourage people to use these dramatic maneuvers when they thought it would end the fight. A lot of people like that dynamic, which is why it gets used in cartoons a lot.
-Frank |
How would Finishing Moves work in the various other resource management systems that do not already use a Drain mechanic? I have a really hard time seeing how it'd work with spell charges or cooldown.
_________________
This will not happen in D&D Next because Mearls is a hack-of-all-trades, a true renaissance man of fail. - rasmuswagner |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
FrankTrollman
Serious Badass
Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 20380
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Lago PARANOIA wrote: | | FrankTrollman wrote: | Giving out "Finishing Moves" that slapped the user with a condition but also were good at taking out enemies would encourage people to use these dramatic maneuvers when they thought it would end the fight. A lot of people like that dynamic, which is why it gets used in cartoons a lot.
-Frank |
How would Finishing Moves work in the various other resource management systems that do not already use a Drain mechanic? I have a really hard time seeing how it'd work with spell charges or cooldown. |
This entire thread is about various ways to get finishing moves to happen regardless of resource subsystems (leaving aside the Deanrule/Phonelobster creepfest about using hammer blows to change women's minds about whether they want to sleep with you). Imagine for the moment that you were a Medusa and you had two powers:
Slow
Area of Effect: All designated targets in a 20m cone.
Effect: Targets must make a Fort Save or be slowed for the rest of combat.
Petrify
Area of Effect: One target within 20m.
Effect: Target must make a Fort Save or be slowed for the rest of combat. If the target is already bloodied, fatigued, slowed, or dazed, they are instead petrified.
Obviously, there is basically no point in opening with Petrify even if both abilities are at-will. So that would be an example of using the CAN structure (this whole Bloodied thing is, after all, simply a less granular version of CAN that is more easily integrated into D&D paradigms) to create Finishing Moves.
-Frank |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lago PARANOIA
Overlord
Joined: 25 Sep 2008
Posts: 7889
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I mean, that's not bad, but I was thinking of Finishing Moves more in the sense of:
A.) A desperation attack that you can use if things are going to shit and you need to escape the death spiral now or never.
B.) Something you bust out against chaff or mooks that routs them even if they're at tip-top shape because they don't deserve a lengthy fight scene. If you really outclass them they don't even need to be dazzled by flashbangs or teargas; you just straight-up Shinkuu Hadouken or Mega-Flare them as soon as the combat music plays.
C.) A combo finisher that you use after an alpha strike or prolonged fight.
This one might be contradictory with the other design goals, so I'm splitting it off, but optionally:
D.) A fight opener that you use to punish foes that stumbled into a lopsided tactical situation like an ambush or being stuck in Tanglebrush.
Right now, the entire shenanigan only covers C and I also feel that any Finishing Move worthy of its salt should accomplish A and B as well. And D as well. Otherwise it just leads into boring MvC2 dial-a-combos.
_________________
This will not happen in D&D Next because Mearls is a hack-of-all-trades, a true renaissance man of fail. - rasmuswagner
Last edited by Lago PARANOIA on Sun Mar 18, 2012 1:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
