Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

Moderator: Moderators

User3
Prince
Posts: 3974
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by User3 »

Lago_AM3P at [unixtime wrote:1083829766[/unixtime]]
Sorry for not clearing that up... The build gains Smite evil and Turn undead from the monk levels, as well as the usual goodies (minus two feats), as per the Holy monk variant in Dragon 310. Turn undead isn't as big of an issue with this particular build (7 levels behind a cleric), but Smite is.

I find that in this case, Monk is stronger then straight Paladin (although possibly weaker then more Fist of Raziel, and certainly weaker then a similar spellcasting build).


Oh. Right. Made-up classes. How stupid of me.

Yes, when you basically reinvent the monk class arbitarily because of a made-up rule in a magazine, then the monk will certainly be better. I'll admit that.

Similarly, if I used the cloistered cleric variant or the druid getting domains variant--also made up classes--in Unearthed Arcana, they'd be REALLY FRICKIN' COOL. Huh? Huh, guys?!


Much like when you use those made up classes in the players hanbooks, or made up prestige classes in the splat books.

Look, if you don't like playing D&D by the rules, just say so and don't complain when others do [play D&D by the rules]. And please, don't give me any of that Zero bullshit.

-Catharz Godsfoot
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by Username17 »

Dragon Magazine isn't even published by WotC. When you use rules printed in it you are using rules about as official as anything you make up yourself.

As such, it rarely has much of a place in min/max discussions (notable exceptions being when they run those occassional things where the author of one of the books comes out and adds explanatory text to something they wrote under official auspices).

So you'll pardon our raised eyebrows and incredulous stares when you pop out a convoluted build based on rules published in a magazine by a third party. It's little different from saying "This character build has game mechanics inspired by rainbows!!!"

Now, secondarily, your saves and attacks really weren't particularly impressive, especially for something which used so many sketchy rules interpretations. That damage, even with the whacky special rules you invoked, is only a bit over 40 on 6 attacks a day. Honestly, that's chicken scratch to a 20th level character (who can, I remind you, hand out that much damage with a greatsword all the time by benefitting from one spell - Polymorph Any Object).

Under 3.5 rules, any numbnuts can just polymorph into a Firbolg at any time and dish out 3d6 + 19 with a non-magical lump of metal that they can buy with money they scrounge out of the couch. That's 29.5 damage - available at literally half your level with one minor spell.

-Username17
User3
Prince
Posts: 3974
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by User3 »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1083894101[/unixtime]]
Under 3.5 rules, any numbnuts can just polymorph into a Firbolg at any time and dish out 3d6 + 19 with a non-magical lump of metal that they can buy with money they scrounge out of the couch. That's 29.5 damage - available at literally half your level with one minor spell.

-Username17


Guess what? Thats great, because with this build, you'd gain full benefits out of Polymorph. You don't add strength to attack, but you *do* add it to damage, in addition to wisdom.

I didn't want to rely on broken spells that the character can't even cast, but if that is par for the course here fine. Lets PAO him into a Kelvezeu, and give him a Spiked quaterstaff while we're at it...

Dragon is "Official." As far as I can tell, it is at least as balanced under Paizo as under WotC. I don't care if the descision was entirely economic. Its stupid to put the holy grail in "official" D&D, and then make up some arbitrary definition of what that is. Either go by what is 'balanced' (then then get rid of all the pointless Min/Maxing), or take the package deal. IIRC there was a gigantic thread on the Min/Max boards about "is Dragon official?," and Lago and I flamed each other repeatedly. It was all pointless. I don't care what you use in your games. If you don't have anything worthwhile to say abouut my build other then 'I don't like your ideas and your sources are suspect,' then please leave out all of the other bullshit.

Is this build overpowered, or isn't it? Is dragon overpowered, or isnt it? I'm getting tired of this double-speak. I'm certain that you can do better then politicians.

-Catharz Godsfoot
Jack_Lurch
Apprentice
Posts: 84
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by Jack_Lurch »

Catharz wrote:
Dragon is "Official."
<SNIP>
IIRC there was a gigantic thread on the Min/Max boards about "is Dragon official?," and Lago and I flamed each other repeatedly.


So you say Dragon is "official" and then a few sentences later say "we were debating whether or not Dragon was official on WotC the other day and nothing got decided and it erupted in a flame war".

Excuse me if this strikes me as bullshit.

-Jack
User avatar
fbmf
The Great Fence Builder
Posts: 2590
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by fbmf »

**Sigh**

Welcome back, Jack. We missed you.

Now that you are back, please try and play nice.

Game On,
fbmf
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by Username17 »

Guess what? Thats great, because with this build, you'd gain full benefits out of Polymorph. You don't add strength to attack, but you *do* add it to damage, in addition to wisdom.


A greatsword wielder adds it to attack and adds it to damage one point five times. So you most certainly are not getting full benefits from it.

Is this build overpowered, or isn't it?


No. As Lago and I keep saying, it's pretty weak. Your sources are suspect and it's not all that powerful.

Look, it's fine to use Dragon Magazine. It's fine to use stuff from Chainmail Bikini Games, and it's almost fine to use things out of "The Complete" series. It's fine to use them in your games, it's even fine to use them in min/max builds.

But then you have to note that you are using non-official things. Most of that stuff is not going to port over if you try to play shared world stuff.

So yes, your claims for your build are somewhat exagerated (you take advantage of a house rule regarding gauntlets which is directly against the "official" interpretation), your claim as to the status of your build regarding sources is also exagerated. And finally, the actual result is not very impressive offensively or defensively.

The pile of damage you are handing out is really not very big. There are builds out there who can full attack at the end of a charge with 20 sneak attacks that all do 8 dice of extra damage. Without using polymorph (but with using a ring of blink). That's big damage, and at 20th level the game doesn't even fall apart when people do that.

-Username17
RandomCasualty
Prince
Posts: 3506
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by RandomCasualty »

Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1083913815[/unixtime]] Is dragon overpowered, or isnt it?


I don't really read dragon, so I can't say for sure... all I do know is that everytime one of my PCs has showed me something from dragon that he'd like to use in one of my games, I've universally said no because in every case it's turned out to be very overpowered and/or using ridiculous mechanics.
User3
Prince
Posts: 3974
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by User3 »

Jack_Lurch at [unixtime wrote:1083932211[/unixtime]]
Catharz wrote:
Dragon is "Official."
<SNIP>
IIRC there was a gigantic thread on the Min/Max boards about "is Dragon official?," and Lago and I flamed each other repeatedly.


So you say Dragon is "official" and then a few sentences later say "we were debating whether or not Dragon was official on WotC the other day and nothing got decided and it erupted in a flame war".

Excuse me if this strikes me as bullshit.

-Jack


The the discussion was based around the fact that Lago coulden't wrap his head around what "100% Official Dungeons and Dragons content" and a licence of Wizards of the Coast means.
It means that the only way you could get more official is hiring Gygax to pull it out of his ass.

There was certainly bullshit involved, but it wan't coming from my direction.

---

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1083938165[/unixtime]]
Guess what? Thats great, because with this build, you'd gain full benefits out of Polymorph. You don't add strength to attack, but you *do* add it to damage, in addition to wisdom.


A greatsword wielder adds it to attack and adds it to damage one point five times. So you most certainly are not getting full benefits from it.

Is this build overpowered, or isn't it?


No. As Lago and I keep saying, it's pretty weak. Your sources are suspect and it's not all that powerful.

Look, it's fine to use Dragon Magazine. It's fine to use stuff from Chainmail Bikini Games, and it's almost fine to use things out of "The Complete" series. It's fine to use them in your games, it's even fine to use them in min/max builds.

But then you have to note that you are using non-official things. Most of that stuff is not going to port over if you try to play shared world stuff.

...

- Frank


Please look at what I put into bold-face. This was my second post on the subject.

Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1083660149[/unixtime]]
Lago_AM3P at [unixtime wrote:1083593588[/unixtime]]
Getting Wisdom to unarmored AC, Attacks, Damage, Saves, Full turn undead progression, Smite evil, Spellcasting, and various DCs isn't as hard as you might think.


I'm not seeing how this works.

In fact, I'm not seeing what monk levels give you at all--there is an item in the core books that will give you the same AC as 9 levels of monk and unarmed damage of 7 levels of the same.


No.

As you might have noticed, the build isn't "core."

There is, however, as feat in Dragon magazine that lets you base everything important to a paladin off of Wisdom (Serenity). There is also a Monk class variant in Dragon 310 that gives you Smite evil and Turn undead as a paladin/stacking with Paladin levels. And lets you multi freely between the two. The classic Shiba protector (who everyones loves) can give Wisdom to attack/damage, or if that is too cheesy for you, take Intuitive strike from BoED and Zen archery from CW.

The advantage Monk gives you is that Monk suddenly becomes the better class after you've taken around 4 levels of Paladin. All good saving throws, more skill points, better class abilities (remember SR?), increasing unarmed damage, Flurry...
You do loose out on spells higher then 1st level... Then again, Monk 12/Paladin 8 or Monk 11/Paladin 8/Shiba 1 wold work too.

The advantages come from canceling out the various classes' and abilities' balancing factors, namely MAD.


I like to post a source for things that not all people may have seen or had access to.

-Catharz Godsfoot
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by Username17 »

I like to post a source for things that not all people may have seen or had access to.


But you still haven't done that, because you haven't actually posted what these effects you are using say, or even really what they do, except in the most general terms.

It would be like posting a build using Tenser's Transformation and writing in that it "gave you a lot of fighter benefits" (assuming, of course, that TT was found in an obscure magazine instead of a core rulebook).

You still haven't actually posted the information about the things you are using. So we still can't even validate the legality of your build even within the context of the third party material it is using. We can evaluate the legality of your use of gauntlets (which is illegal), so you'll pardon us for being highly skeptical of your hand waving and assurances that the 3rd party material makes it magically all work out somehow.

-Username17
User3
Prince
Posts: 3974
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by User3 »

:lmao:

-Catharz Godsfoot
Sma
Master
Posts: 273
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by Sma »

I read through the Dragon Monk, and -to me- the build seems mechanically correct.
You can take my word for what it´s worth (it´s free after all). :)

The discussion of Dragon Stuff being official or not, has absolutely no bearing on whether the PHB Mok is weak or not. I´m sure there are some pretty nifty Bard or Fighter Builds out there, but still the majority of them tend to be outclassed by even a straight Wizard.

If you have to use a variant of a class to build a strong character, it simply shows that the PHB Monk wasn´t worth it.

And while it´s nice to add Wisdom to just about everything, the result IMHO lacks the sheer smackdown of a Paladin 20, who easily charges for 200+ damage coupled with good saves and mobility. :)

So, would Clerics be too strong if they Turn and Cast off the same stat ?

Sma
trying to drag this discussion back on topic.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by Username17 »

So, would Clerics be too strong if they Turn and Cast off the same stat ?


That's a difficult question.

1> Clerics are already overpowered.
2> Clerics "turn" with their class levels, not their charisma modifier.

The Charisma Mod is almost completely meaningless in this equation. Every 8 points of charisma is the equivalent of 1 turning level, up to an extremely attainable maximum, and it doesn't even count as a level for the purpose of destroying/commanding undead.

You slap an amulet of turning and such on, of course, because those affect the turning level (which matters) instead of the turning check (which doesn't).

-Username17
Sma
Master
Posts: 273
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by Sma »

1) They are ? After playing a Druid they don´t feel it ;p

2) At the higher Levels the average Charisma modifier has little Influence, boot for lower level clerics adding their primary attribute to turning is a leg up.
Where are you getting 8 points of charisma being equivalent to one turning level from ? Glancing at the tables, it seems to me that, because of adding the Cha modifier to the turning check and damage, even a bonus of two makes a difference.


Sma
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by Username17 »

1) They are ? After playing a Druid they don&#65533;t feel it ;p


You ever played a Cleric Archer with the Trickery and War domains?

Where are you getting 8 points of charisma being equivalent to one turning level from ? Glancing at the tables, it seems to me that, because of adding the Cha modifier to the turning check and damage, even a bonus of two makes a difference.


Sorry, it's six points, that's what I get for typing at 2 in the morning.

Adding to turning damage is, at high or even medium levels, meaningless. As you go up in levels, the horde monsters you are facing each individually rise in hit dice exponentially (it's a small exponent, but that is the curve they get), but the total number of hit dice you affect rises only linearly. As such, with the limit of level gain, you will always be affecting only one enemy, regardless of your charisma.

A 10th level Cleric with an 18 charisma turns an average of 21 hit dice - the same cleric with a six charisma turns an average of 15. But there's a minimum of 1 turned enemy, and CR 10 opposition has a tendency to e like the Abyssal Ghoul and have 16 hit dice or so - which means both characters only turn one enemy at their level.

Dealing with horde monsters is no better - even CR 4 zombies have like 12 hit dice each.

-Username17
Sma
Master
Posts: 273
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Wisdom and Charisma should be one stat

Post by Sma »

I haven´t played one yet, was joking though :)
Having played Earthdawn for a while, I don´t have a problem with high powered characters, although the power structure is kind of different there. So to me the cleric archer or the core druid feel ok, power wise, its just the non-casters feel weakish to me.

2: Ok, I wasn´t thinking of the monster HD issue. Thanks for the clarification.

Sma
Post Reply