Monte Cook: "High level play isn't broken, just different!"

[souran]

Doesn't matter, though. It's terrible. I would almost rather play Vecna Lives!, which is the most bullshit D&D adventure I've ever read but at least makes an effort to sustain a coherent tone of epic fantasy, no matter how fucking stupid it has to get in the process.

For a premade adventure "Die, Vecna Die!" was actually pretty good. It had plenty of interesting elements and not a whole lot of insta-kill bullshit.

It did have lots of "vecna casts a non dispellable, totally incomrehensible spell that performs the next plot point" stuff to it though, that would make it something denners wouldn't like but most groups could get a lot of play out of Die.

It also was for 12-15th level and was written as though it was going to be the capstone of your D&D 2E gaming.

I always wondered how the other vecna advetures were. If they were worth even considering.

Please tell me more about vecna lives, and why its so crappy.

[talozin]

Please tell me more about vecna lives, and why its so crappy.

I could rant for several thousand words about why Vecna Lives sucks, and I have. Although this would have a lot more swearing if it was written for the Den, so try to imagine it with a lot of snarling of "fuck" and "bullshit" and so forth.

[Midnight_v]

Please tell me more about vecna lives, and why its so crappy.

I could rant for several thousand words about why Vecna Lives sucks, and I have. Although this would have a lot more swearing if it was written for the Den, so try to imagine it with a lot of snarling of "fuck" and "bullshit" and so forth.

Nothing wrong with that you know. . .

[Ravengm]

http://community.wizards.com/dndnext/bl ... er_numbers

Good design can make complicated high-level play somewhat simpler, but the challenge comes with keeping it simple when players possess more options and quirkier abilities.

I'm pretty sure the first challenge they should be thinking of is making it work in the first place, neh?

On a somewhat related note, if they're putting full stock in the surveys that keep appearing on entries like this, it makes me nervous. Pretty much all of the most popular answers have been "<topic> should be able to change at the behest of the player". We might just get a whole slew of splat "option" books for 5E instead of a single system. And I wouldn't be surprised, if they can milk the shit out of that for cash.

[hogarth]

http://community.wizards.com/dndnext/bl ... er_numbers

Ugh. I hope he's not suggesting that every high level monster should be a puzzle monster. I have a general dislike of puzzle monsters ("Ha! You forgot to bring the blue key today, so you lose!").

[hyzmarca]

http://community.wizards.com/dndnext/bl ... er_numbers

Ugh. I hope he's not suggesting that every high level monster should be a puzzle monster. I have a general dislike of puzzle monsters ("Ha! You forgot to bring the blue key today, so you lose!").

I think he's suggesting that

"You see a dragon flying overhead, it circles once and lands in front of youm swiping at you with its claws."

"I hit it with my sword"

"Fireball!"

"Sneak Attack"

is less interesting than

"You see a dragon flying overhead. It opens its mouth and lets out a mighty gout of flame in your direction slightly singing you and setting the trees on fire. It passes you and it begins to turn around for another strafing run."

"I summon my silver-dragon and dogfight it!"

"Flight!"

"I telepathy contact the crew of my pirate stealth airship and tell them to sneak attack it with chainshot."

[hogarth]

It's the word "only" that bothers me:

Where foes are no longer just simple combat stats but are challenges that can be overcome only by using special tactics, magic, or almost supernatural feats of strength or speed.

If every party is supposed to have access to the same "special tactics, magic, or almost supernatural feats of strength or speed", then isn't that just fighting super-orcs with super-attacks, as he noted in his first paragraph?

[John Magnum]

I'm still not clear on where TGD derives its shared Platonic ideal of epic-level play, and how it's distinct from fighting super-orcs with super-attacks (where, in this case, "infinite planar armies" count as super-orcs and chain-Xing/wish economy stuff count as super-attacks).

[CatharzGodfoot]

(where, in this case, "infinite planar armies" count as super-orcs and chain-Xing/wish economy stuff count as super-attacks).

Is that the same world where "fish" count as artichokes and "government bureaucracies" count as 7-11?

[hogarth]

"You see a dragon flying overhead. It opens its mouth and lets out a mighty gout of flame in your direction slightly singing you and setting the trees on fire. It passes you and it begins to turn around for another strafing run."

"I summon my silver-dragon and dogfight it!"

"Flight!"

"I telepathy contact the crew of my pirate stealth airship and tell them to sneak attack it with chainshot."

I don't find that particularly different from:

"You see an eagle flying overhead. It swoops down over your heads, causing you to duck. It begins to turn around for another pass."

"I summon another eagle to dogfight it!"

"Move!"

"I shout for the nearest watchman and ask him to bring his bow."

YMMV, of course. Note: Just because a high-level encounter is similar to a low-level encounter with more hit points and slightly fancier movement doesn't mean it's a bad high-level encounter. I much prefer the "super-orc" kind of thing to "Oh, you don't have Prismatic Sphere memorized? Too bad, the monster is immune to everything else, so you're dead".

[nockermensch]

For me, the important difference between low and high level adventures should both be vertical (super orcs) and horizontal (your enemies are mindblanked in the astral plane sending summoned angels against you at the most inconvenient times).

Just supercharging the numbers is a big part of why the Epic Level book is boring.

[JonSetanta]

"Oh, you don't have Prismatic Sphere memorized? Too bad, the monster is immune to everything else, so you're dead".

That's my recollection of AD&D as well, so it goes farther back than Monte's design principles.

[Ice9]

For me, the important difference between low and high level adventures should both be vertical (super orcs) and horizontal (your enemies are mindblanked in the astral plane sending summoned angels against you at the most inconvenient times).

Just supercharging the numbers is a big part of why the Epic Level book is boring.

Pretty much. Also why 4E epic felt anticlimactic - it was specifically set up so you could just palette-swap low-level adventures and use them:

"Ok, so you need to walk through the swamp hellscape to the bandit fortress tower of death, break down the barred door gate of eternity, fight the orcs demons, and retrieve the merchant's wagon orb of souls."
And that just feels pointless as hell, especially when it's blatant.


Of course, complaining that palette-swaps suck is the easy part. Figuring out what kind of difference should define high-level play is the hard stuff. Off the top of my head, here's some ideas/opinions:
* Delegating tasks. At low level, you are the one that tasks get delegated to. At higher levels, you've got more and better access to minions, as well as more occasions when you need to use them. This isn't high-level exclusive, but it's a trend.
* Information is more important. You (and your foes) have more ways to get it, more ways to hide it, and more reason to do so. This implies that at high levels, the difference between "randomly picked attack" and "attack against a weak point" should be significant.
* Ambush/assassination strikes. At low levels, you probably just die from these, so hopefully your enemies are limited in scope such that "sleep somewhere reasonably safe" and/or "skip town for a few weeks" are sufficient precautions. At high levels, you have foes that send angels at you from other planes, so you need to be able to handle that kind of thing. Likewise, your own ability to surprise-gank any foes that drop their guard will be higher.
* Extreme locations. Yes, to some extent, this can be considered a palette-swap, but really there should be tangible differences. Situations where you need to strike at a dozen points in a dozen kingdoms fairly simultaneously, or fight in a place with subjective gravity and prismatic weather, at least.
* Backup plans / more than one trick. At low levels, maybe you just sword stuff. If the enemy is immune to swording, it sucks to be you - so hopefully that's rare. At high levels, when the Lich throws out a doubling ooze that makes your tornado of blades a bad idea, you pull out your life-eating ghost dragon and keep going. And when he busts out a selective anti-magic field and shuts that down, you reveal your mastery of dancing shadow style and re-kill him anyway. For anything close to an even match, taking down a high-level character should be a layered process, where you bust through their series of backup plans.

[tzor]

It's the word "only" that bothers me:

Where foes are no longer just simple combat stats but are challenges that can be overcome only by using special tactics, magic, or almost supernatural feats of strength or speed.

I'm not bothered by the word "only" but I'm old enough to know it's not as easy as he might think. I'm assuming that he is not per se talking about puzzle monsters where if you don't know the "secret" of the monster you are screwed but monsters that present an obvious implication that you must approach them differently than others.

Some of these may not be obvious at first, but become obvious in the course of a combat. A classical greek hydra whose heads regenerate becomes clear that you need both sword and fire to effectively defeat. The classical Medusa is another type of such monster, it's easy to know how to defeat her, it's just a tad difficult even when you know. The same is true for strength and speed. Perhaps the monster is slow, perhaps the monster must be grappled or lifted (perhaps the monster regenerates upon contact with the earth because it is a child of the earth god, or the sea or whatever).

Interesting variety can be done, but it's not easy and it is a one shot at best because once you know how to kill a troll, the rest of the troll battles are down right boring.