Threads that make us Laugh, Cry, or Both

[shirak]

1183634945[/unixtime]]

1183605405[/unixtime]]Chuckles, are you seriously arguing that a Bard can't use the UMD skill to activate the raise dead option from a Staff of Healing on the grounds that they can activate the magic item at all without resorting to the skill?

Okay, this makes no sense, you use can and can't in the same sentence. I don't know what you are saying.

The Staff of Healing, according to the SRD, has Cure Serious Wounds, which is a Bard spell, and also Remove Disease which is not. By your argument, since a Bard can activate this Staff he may never roll UMD to activate this Staff. This means that the Bard may not cast Cure Serious Wounds at a higher CL. Bu it also means that the Bard cannot use the Staff to cast Cure Disease at all because he may never roll UMD to activate the Staff and he does not have Remove Disease in his spell list.

1183634945[/unixtime]]

1183605405[/unixtime]]Or are we going to have to get into an argument about whether activating a better effect out of a magical item that can be activated to a lesser extent constitutes a "need"?

-Username17

So you do understand the you don't need a caster level to activate the staff. But you argument is that it makes the staff more powerful, so the character can makes another check. Where are you getting that from? Where is that in the rules?

When the Staff checks to see whether you have the spell on your spell list or not, you roll UMD to fool it.
When the Staff checks to see whether you have a higher caster level or not, you roll UMD to fool it.

It's a simple as that. If UMD is allowed to work at all it allows you to get a CL for the purpose of activating Staves.

[technomancer]

bigode, the section in UMD may be titled "emulate class feature" but the text actually says you get to pretend to be that class. With some class features, it doesn't make any sense to have virtual levels in a class -- Thousand Faces from druid. Either you have it, or you don't. Some class features require virtual levels in a class to make sense -- i.e. spellcasting. Where does UMD say you emulate a specific class feature? All I can find says you count as being X level in the class, presumably allowing you to pretend to have class features up to level X.

My reading of UMD says you pretend to be a level (Check-20) (class), and you count as having everything to the right of will saves, up to that level.

UMD also says you can make multiple checks at once, in fact, some uses of the skill require it, like casting a spell from a scroll who's spell level too high for your relavent attribute score. UMD also does not say that you can only emulate the minimum required to activate.

If you were a LG Rogue, and found a magic item that required you to be CE, and did more if you were a Drow Cleric, and did even more if you had Ki Strike (Magic), you would have to make 1 check to activate the item (alignment), but why couldn't you make 3 more checks -- class features x2 (cleric and monk), and race --to activate it better? The only limitations of use I've found in UMD is that you can only emulate one alignment at a time, and you can only emulate one race at a time. (note: you could emulate monk because your real alignment is lawful, even though your fake alignment is chaotic)

[Chuckles]

Normally, to use a wand, you must have the wand’s spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill allows you to use a wand as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. This use of the skill also applies to other spell trigger magic items, such as staffs.

So right here it lays out what you need to activate a staff. You have what you need to activate it right there.

Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

Here it says that to activate something you can emulate a class feature, not that you can if it's just real helpful. It also says you can't actually use the class feature.

Staffs use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff.

Notice it says can, not needs a caster level.

This means that staffs are far more potent in the hands of a powerful spellcaster.

Hence why it doesn't tell you to emulate a class feature for staffs. And this is where you get your intent, if you want to try and argue that.

So to say it again, you don't need caster levels to activate a staff, UMD is about activating, not being really good at something. Until you can show me where in 'Emulate a Class Feature' it says, you can use a class feature just because it makes your life easier, you can stop quoting it. It's not there, and assuming it is won't make it so, no matter how much you want it to be there.

[shirak]

1183642224[/unixtime]]bigode, the section in UMD may be titled "emulate class feature" but the text actually says you get to pretend to be that class. With some class features, it doesn't make any sense to have virtual levels in a class -- Thousand Faces from druid. Either you have it, or you don't. Some class features require virtual levels in a class to make sense -- i.e. spellcasting. Where does UMD say you emulate a specific class feature? All I can find says you count as being X level in the class, presumably allowing you to pretend to have class features up to level X.

My reading of UMD says you pretend to be a level (Check-20) (class), and you count as having everything to the right of will saves, up to that level.

UMD also says you can make multiple checks at once, in fact, some uses of the skill require it, like casting a spell from a scroll who's spell level too high for your relavent attribute score. UMD also does not say that you can only emulate the minimum required to activate.

If you were a LG Rogue, and found a magic item that required you to be CE, and did more if you were a Drow Cleric, and did even more if you had Ki Strike (Magic), you would have to make 1 check to activate the item (alignment), but why couldn't you make 3 more checks -- class features x2 (cleric and monk), and race --to activate it better? The only limitations of use I've found in UMD is that you can only emulate one alignment at a time, and you can only emulate one race at a time. (note: you could emulate monk because your real alignment is lawful, even though your fake alignment is chaotic)

What are you talking about? UMD specifically grants a particular Class Feature as a character with (your UMD check - 20) levels in the class that grants the feature would have it. You don't get to have all class features. You get to have ONE at a particular level. Remember, this is why Emulate Class Feature has a DC of 20 and not 21+. For a Class Feature like A Thousand Faces, a 20 is enough. For something like "Spells", your roll matters because it determines how much of that feature you actually have. But regardless of your roll, if you roll 20 or more you have that Class Feature!

Now, if you want to houserule getting every class feature up to your effective level you can do so. It's your game after all. But it is in no way RAW and I'd personally kick for doing this. All it does is make UMD crazier and we really don't need that.

[Chuckles]

1183644291[/unixtime]]

1183642224[/unixtime]]bigode, the section in UMD may be titled "emulate class feature" but the text actually says you get to pretend to be that class. With some class features, it doesn't make any sense to have virtual levels in a class -- Thousand Faces from druid. Either you have it, or you don't. Some class features require virtual levels in a class to make sense -- i.e. spellcasting. Where does UMD say you emulate a specific class feature? All I can find says you count as being X level in the class, presumably allowing you to pretend to have class features up to level X.

My reading of UMD says you pretend to be a level (Check-20) (class), and you count as having everything to the right of will saves, up to that level.

UMD also says you can make multiple checks at once, in fact, some uses of the skill require it, like casting a spell from a scroll who's spell level too high for your relavent attribute score. UMD also does not say that you can only emulate the minimum required to activate.

If you were a LG Rogue, and found a magic item that required you to be CE, and did more if you were a Drow Cleric, and did even more if you had Ki Strike (Magic), you would have to make 1 check to activate the item (alignment), but why couldn't you make 3 more checks -- class features x2 (cleric and monk), and race --to activate it better? The only limitations of use I've found in UMD is that you can only emulate one alignment at a time, and you can only emulate one race at a time. (note: you could emulate monk because your real alignment is lawful, even though your fake alignment is chaotic)

What are you talking about? UMD specifically grants a particular Class Feature as a character with (your UMD check - 20) levels in the class that grants the feature would have it. You don't get to have all class features. You get to have ONE at a particular level. Remember, this is why Emulate Class Feature has a DC of 20 and not 21+. For a Class Feature like A Thousand Faces, a 20 is enough. For something like "Spells", your roll matters because it determines how much of that feature you actually have. But regardless of your roll, if you roll 20 or more you have that Class Feature!

Now, if you want to houserule getting every class feature up to your effective level you can do so. It's your game after all. But it is in no way RAW and I'd personally kick for doing this. All it does is make UMD crazier and we really don't need that.

When the Staff checks to see whether you have the spell on your spell list or not, you roll UMD to fool it.
When the Staff checks to see whether you have a higher caster level or not, you roll UMD to fool it.

But that's what you are arguing.
When the item checks to see if you are a drow cleric, you roll UMD.
When it checks to see if you are a monk, you roll UMD.

[User3]

The Staff of Healing, according to the SRD, has Cure Serious Wounds, which is a Bard spell, and also Remove Disease which is not. By your argument, since a Bard can activate this Staff he may never roll UMD to activate this Staff. This means that the Bard may not cast Cure Serious Wounds at a higher CL. Bu it also means that the Bard cannot use the Staff to cast Cure Disease at all because he may never roll UMD to activate the Staff and he does not have Remove Disease in his spell list.

That is a good example (and actually I owe Frank apologies for not checking whether remove disease is a bard spell when he first came with it, which is central to the argument), but that's how I see it per RAW (my opinion has absolutely nothing to do with this - it's not like I don't see the need for this being discussed at all doesn't come from the kind of thing that'd make Byzantium envious): you try to activate cure serious wounds - it works automatically, stop (no UMD allowed since you met staff requirements); you try to use remove disease - you make a DC 20 check for "use wand" (remember the functions are listed separately), stop (spell list prerequisite already met - no CL needed, as per paladin). "Emulate class feature" seems to have been intended for stupid cases like "has to rebuke as a 15th-level cleric" and such things.

[Username17]

you try to use remove disease - you make a DC 20 check for "use wand" (remember the functions are listed separately), stop (spell list prerequisite already met - no CL needed, as per paladin). "Emulate class feature" seems to have been intended for stupid cases like "has to rebuke as a 15th-level cleric" and such things.

Fine. In that interpretation (which is valid, btw), then when you are using a staff you can choose to attempt to activate its additional power to cast at a caster level higher than its own by emulating a higher level spellcaster.

In short, if the remove disease is an additional ability that you can separately attempt to meet the prereqs of, then so is the higher caster level.

And in order to activate the staff's abilty to cast at a level of over nine thousand, you have to be a spellcaster of level over nine thousand. Which requires, and therefore allows a UMD test because you are not, in fact, a caster of level over nine thousand.

---

The way you're looking at it doesn't actually make any difference, because the ability of a staff to be used at a higher caster level is an ability with level based prereqs. If you're going to split hairs in that fashion, you've got to take the cut to the end. And in the end, the difference is no difference.

-Username17

[Chuckles]

1183660435[/unixtime]]

you try to use remove disease - you make a DC 20 check for "use wand" (remember the functions are listed separately), stop (spell list prerequisite already met - no CL needed, as per paladin). "Emulate class feature" seems to have been intended for stupid cases like "has to rebuke as a 15th-level cleric" and such things.

Fine. In that interpretation (which is valid, btw), then when you are using a staff you can choose to attempt to activate its additional power to cast at a caster level higher than its own by emulating a higher level spellcaster.

So using UMD you can activate multiply powers at the same time?

In short, if the remove disease is an additional ability that you can separately attempt to meet the prereqs of, then so is the higher caster level.

So someone with a staff of necromancy can hit someone with a ghoul touch, cause fear, enervation, and finger of death, all at the same time because they can activate multiple powers at the same time.

And in order to activate the staff's abilty to cast at a level of over nine thousand, you have to be a spellcaster of level over nine thousand. Which requires, and therefore allows a UMD test because you are not, in fact, a caster of level over nine thousand.

And in order to activate the staff's abilty to cast in pitch black you need to have darkvision so you UMD a shadowdancers darkvision. And in order activate the staff's ability to be cast with metamagic feats, you emulate the artificers metamagic spell trigger. Where does it stop then?

If you can emulate any feature that helps you, well there are about a hundred different features that will help you with a magic item. A staff will activate just fine it the UMD'er has a 0 caster level, so you really are doing it just for more power, so why stop at caster level?

The way you're looking at it doesn't actually make any difference, because the ability of a staff to be used at a higher caster level is an ability with level based prereqs.

That is a big problem because now you can activate every ability as a single action. And you get into weird stuff then, a sword has the ability to be used at a higher BAB, so can you do that?

If you're going to split hairs in that fashion, you've got to take the cut to the end. And in the end, the difference is no difference.

-Username17

The cuts taken to the end, and I think it makes a big difference in the way D&D works.

[Fwib]

What Frank is saying is that the staff has the ability to cast the spells they hold at an arbitrary caster level, with the prerequisite of actually having an arbitrary caster level.

You're only activating one power at once - 'cast remove disease at caster level 20' (perhaps because that is what is needed to get rid of the pernicious plague the DM infected your group with)

You can use several different functions of UMD to activate that one function of the magic item you're working on however.

[RandomCasualty]

Well, just to be specific, you don't actually activate UMD at a given level. You just get the caster level by however much your UMD exceeds 20.

So it's more like you make a UMD check and as a side effect, you also get a caster level associated with that effect. So if you for instance had to emulate turning, If you rolled a 25, you'd emulate turning as a 5th level cleric, but you don't have to announce ahead of time that you're trying to do that. You just say you're emulating turning and then roll to see how well you do it.

[Fwib]

I should have put a '+' after '20'

[technomancer]

You can't UMD a sword to get a higher BaB for 2 reasons: You don't actually get to use the class features you get, you just count as having them for purposes of activating magic items. You don't get to emulate BaB, because it's not part of the Class Features column of the class.

UMD doesn't take any action at all, it's part of activating a staff. Because of that, no amount of UMD'ing will allow you to activate all the powers of a staff at once. You try to activate the staff (pre-defined action cost), and as part of that activation, you get to make any number of UMD checks to possibly succeed. I don't see any reason why you couldn't made multiple UMD checks to pretend to have various class features that arn't directly related to the activation, but they're pointless.

You are using the "Activate a Staff" action, not the "Use Magic Device" action, and the "Activate a Staff" action says you can 1) Cast the spell, 2) increase the DC with relavent feats, 3) change the base DC to your relevent attribute score's modifier, and 4) change the base CL to your CL.

If you emulate the Artificier's class feature which allows you to apply meta-magic feats, great! But who cares? You can't actually use the class feature (as per UMD), and staves don't care about your meta-magic feats by default (as per Activating Staves).

You're not taking it to it's logical conclusion, you're throwing things in there that the rules text specifically dis-allows.

[Username17]

Pretty much. Although I would point out that if you had a magic item that granted a bonus to characters with a Base Attack Bonus of +12 or a specific feat or whatever you could use Magic Device to get that special benefit.

For example, if you have Bracers of Archery you can emulate having the Weapon Proficiencies of a Fighter for the purposes of getting the bonus to attack/damage from the Bracers. If you had a Legendary Weapon such as the Dragonblade on page 164 of Unearthed Arcana then you could emulate not only having the Battle Scion level to get Frightful Presence (DC 29) but also the BAB to get the Bravery ability (again DC 29 ironically enough).

So while a +2 Sword does not "allow an attack with a +11 bonus to characters with a +9 BAB" (and thus does not allow you to pump up your attack bonus with a UMD check), the Dragonblade does give a special ability to someone who has a BAB of +9 and you can copy that.

---

Basically, any time a magic item allows characters with trait X to do N then you can Use Magic Device to have trait X at arbitrarily high levels. Any time a magic item gives you +A to N checks then UMD doesn't do shit.

So the Cloak of Elven Kind gives you a +5 bonus to your Hide checks. There's nothing that you can do with that on a UMD check of 20 or 20,000. But the Monk's Belt allows a Monk to get an AC bonus as if his Monk Level was 4 levels higher than it actually is. That means that with a UMD check of 20,000 you can get the AC bonus of 1984th level Monk. Crack open the Epic rules...

-Username17

[Falgund]

But the Monk's Belt allows a Monk to get an AC bonus as if his Monk Level was 4 levels higher than it actually is. That means that with a UMD check of 20,000 you can get the AC bonus of 1984th level Monk. Crack open the Epic rules...

And if the text was "gain 4 monk level to compute your monk AC bonus", a UMD check of 20,000 will do nothing nothing more than one of 20. But this is not the case, and the Staff activation text is in the same boat as the Monk's Belt: you set the level to a new value instead of gaining a bonus.

[Leress]

Sometime I wish I didn't read Regdar's Repository
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.p ... 2973739[br]

[PhoneLobster]

You made me go to wizards, I saw horrors beyond your imagining.

Like THIS!

Yes. Lets all rework D&D just like saga edition.

Lets turn class abilities into wildly divergent and stupid "Talent" trees where you can decide between things that do practically nothing (barbarian +1 trap sense) and things that hurt the universe (like access to a full TWO CHARACTER LEVELS of wizard spell casting advancement)

Lets take TWO incompatible and flawed systems, take the crappier one (saga) then take the stupidest ideas from the better one and combine them to build... The Perfect Game

Who's with me? Lets join the revolution!

Never mind that its a revolution in blatant ARSE.

(Edit: ...aaaand while you're revolutionising the meaning of ARSE make sure to marvel as the creators behind this SET of highly progressive threads not do one jot of diddly to help the half orc and also to make sure to combine the nerfs to sneaking from BOTH systems to make some of the nerfiest sneakers in d20ish history. Come on it will be FUN!)

[User3]

Man, those fundie quotes make me feel like I'm reading the WotC boards.

""Make sure your answer uses Scripture, not logic.""

"I often debate with evolutionists because I believe that they are narrow mindedly and dogmatically accepting evolution without questioning it. I don't really care how God did what He did. I know He did it."

"LOL, I think that I am the one that is missing something. Because I fail to see how "glyphosate" resistant weeds is an arguement FOR evolution. I do not even know what glyphosate is so how can that be evidence for anything. Maybe for you it is evidence, for me it is just a word that I do not know the meaning of."

"Evidence that the Bible is God's Word


1. It claims to be.

Example:
2 Timothy 3:16 - "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness""

"[Teens-4-Christ official rules]

NO DEBATING. Teens-4-Christ is not a 'debate' site. You will not change our minds, do not try. A quick read of Romans 1 will show that those who debate are in the company of adulterers, sodomites and murderers. Therefore, debating will not be allowed.

All posts contrary to the doctrinal beliefs this site was founded on are subject to being deleted at the discretion of management. Any posts supporting beliefs contrary to "What we believe" will be deleted...may result in banning of the poster.

God's Word is the final authority on all matters."

[Catharz]

I'm an open and accepting person, welcoming those of all creeds!

[Draco_Argentum]

1183705081[/unixtime]]That site is just depressing.[/IMG]

Yeah, there weren't many silly ones like the clearly gay teen. Mostly it just makes me think that the human race needs to be exterminated.

[MrWaeseL]

Hell yes people who don't believe in evolution need to die! And so does their whole race! I'm perfectly mentally balanced!

Creationists are grating to me too, but I don't use them as an argument to exterminate the human race. Jesus christ.

[tzor]

1183684520[/unixtime]]Sometime I wish I didn't read Regdar's Repository
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.p ... st12973739

While it it poorly worded he does have a point. Having played the dreaded 2E fighter where combat consisted of "it's my turn ... I attack ... do I hit ... x points of damage" again and again and again there are times when playing a fighter was a necessary bore.

On the other hand sometimes being charmed with narry a save was FUN! "Sorry guys." "Hey I was charmed ... you always knew I was dangerous."

The problem is given the general nature of 3E compared to 2E it's harder to make.

[tzor]

Somehow there is a reference to a "Fundy" site but I can't seem to find the link. Whatever. I just want to point out that there are a lot of "Christians" who don't exctly see eye to eye with the Fundy's. We don't go as far as they do in not calling us Christians, but we do disagree with a lot of thier arguments. In fact it's too easy to shread their arguments.

Take "Sola Scriptura" or "Scripture Alone." In order to believe in Sola Scriptura you have to find a place in the Bible that sepecifically says the bible alone and there isn't any. Scripture tells us that all scripture is usefull but not stand alone. (In fact scripture says that the Church is the pillar and bulwark of truth, not scripture.) Likewise there is no book of "table of contents" which defined scripture, that was defined, once again, by the Church!

One of the leters of the Apostle of Peter talks about how people (the gnostics at the time Peter was writing) was twisting scripture (which apparently he considered the letters of Paul to be included therein) to their own damnation!

So I'll end by citing those "other scriptures."

"He's a real nowhere man
Sitting in his nowhere land
Making all his nowere plans
for Nobody."

Come to think of it, doesn't that describe most of the posters in the WOTC forums as well?

[Catharz]

You're right, of course, although I wouldn't say that the root of evil in Christianity is following the scripture rather than the Church. There are always going to be a few flaming idiots whose constant yelling nearly drowns out the rest of the voices.

Anyway, I'll take my bitterness and religious sentiments elsewhere (or maybe nowhere), rather than mucking up this tread.

[Draco_Argentum]

1183720637[/unixtime]]Hell yes people who don't believe in evolution need to die! And so does their whole race! I'm perfectly mentally balanced!

Actually its the large level of illogic that makes me think the species is a failure that would be better off gone. If you were tiger being used as a source of aphrodisiacs you'd probably agree.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

""Make sure your answer uses Scripture, not logic.""

Maaaan, I wish I were more up on my scripture, cuz you can use it to justify some pretty crazy shit, and I'm not even talking about the usual abortion/evolution/homosexuality thing.

-Desdan