I'm gonna play Pathfinder, how do I not suck/break the game

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:05 am

Multi-creature Summoner obviates the need for a party at higher levels because you can just dump Celestial Dire Lions on people's heads while your Eidolon uses UMD and plays lookout with its +8 bullshit bonuses to skill checks.

Synthesist probably is the best for not making your party hate you because you're only using the 3.5 polymorph/Wildshape rules. It's mad poorly worded, though.

Juton · Post by **Juton** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:38 am

OgreBattle wrote:How do I build a cool Endritch knight in 8 levels?

Bonus points if I can wear heavy armor and be Golbez.

It depends on what you think 'cool' is. The old stalwarts of Fighter 1/Wizard 5 and Paladin 2/Sorcerer 6 should still work as before, about as good as they where in core 3.5. You'd be rocking mage armour instead of regular armour though. I always wanted to try a Wizard that used still spell on all his spells and wore heavy armour, I don't know how well that would work but it should work as well in Pathfinder as it would in 3.5.

I compare Pathfinder to core 3.5 a lot, because Pathfinder doesn't really add many interesting options, especially for Gishes. You can play an Eldritch Knight and still do well in Pathfinder, because Wizards are still powerful if you know what spells to take. The odd time they add an interesting option like Heirloom Weapon*, they go back a year latter and nerf it.

What Heirloom Weapon did:

Spoiler to save space for something not that important.

So we know Weapon Focus is a shitty feat. Traits in Pathfinder are like half feats, every character get two at chargen, you can get two more traits for the cost of a feat. Heirloom weapon is a trait that used to give you: proficiency in a given weapon, a +1 trait bonus on attack rolls with that weapon and master work version of that weapon. It squeezed three crappy 3.5 feats into one good half feat, so you know Paizo had to go and nerf it. They changed it so you can either get proficiency, a +1 attack bonus or +2 on a combat maneuver and you had to pay for that weapon.

Why did they make this change?

Because in Pathfinder, Fighters can't have nice things.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:50 am

Cool is, hmmm haven't really thought too much about it.

Whoah, Paladin2/Sorcerer 6 looks really cool! Smite to increase accuracy, divine grace will give me good saves too.
Damn PF and their alignment restrictions though...

I'm not really sure exactly where the swording portion comes up. How exactly do I synergize those elements together? Recommended weapons? I was by default thinking greatsword, but if a halberd or whatever fancy polearms pathfinder has could work, then great.

Would I pretty much be taking the same spells as a Wizard/Sorcerer and smacking people suffering from rainbow seizers, or killin folks in their sleep?

koz · Post by **koz** » Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:43 am

OgreBattle wrote:Cool is, hmmm haven't really thought too much about it.

Whoah, Paladin2/Sorcerer 6 looks really cool! Smite to increase accuracy, divine grace will give me good saves too.
Damn PF and their alignment restrictions though...

I'm not really sure exactly where the swording portion comes up. How exactly do I synergize those elements together? Recommended weapons? I was by default thinking greatsword, but if a halberd or whatever fancy polearms pathfinder has could work, then great.

Would I pretty much be taking the same spells as a Wizard/Sorcerer and smacking people suffering from rainbow seizers, or killin folks in their sleep?

I herd True Strike was pretty hot. But yeah, killing people in their sleep or under seizures also works.

Silent Wayfarer · Post by **Silent Wayfarer** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:28 am

OgreBattle, this is for the game on RPGNet, right?

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:28 am

Juton wrote:I always wanted to try a Wizard that used still spell on all his spells and wore heavy armour, I don't know how well that would work but it should work as well in Pathfinder as it would in 3.5.

I was about to say "Works pretty well, as Meta-magic doesn't increase the level, it just can't be applied if it would increase the level higher than you can cast, ie if you can cast 2nd level spells, then you can cast 1st level Still Spells in 1st level slots, but can't cast 2nd level Still spells."

Turns out I was wrong, and was thinking of some other 3.x mod, maybe the Warcraft d20 game? As an idea that nominally strengthens casters and has been bounced around the Internet plenty of times (thus qualifying as "Other people's trash to scrounge through"), you'd think Paizo would be all over that.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:49 am

You were thinking of Alpha Nerds metamagic rules which I incorporated into Comprehensive Tome errata.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:18 am

Ah, fair enough then. I should have thought it was too sensible for PF.

Though I suppose when we have Barbarians that do $TEXAS damage and Knights that are immune to "being affected by stuff" and Monks that can punch people to death from other planes and they have "Combat Manoeuvres are now less likely to succeed, yay!" and "Hmm, I think Wizards need a bonus to Initiative and only fake restrictions on their prohibited schools", maybe they don't need anything else at all for casters and it's just something that benefits the Tomes.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:25 pm

OgreBattle wrote:
Juton wrote:An Eldritch Knight works too. The things that suck in Pathfinder are the same things that suck in 3.5, except sometimes the Bard progression casters are really powerful (summoner) or kind of weak (inquisitor).
How do I build a cool Endritch knight in 8 levels?

Bonus points if I can wear heavy armor and be Golbez.

Going for 3.5 is probably your best bet. Play a Dread Necromancer. Right out of the box, you can wear a mithral breastplate and are a creepy dude. Your Eldritchness is a little limited, but there are a lot of things you can do with necromancy as a utility, and you have "be super-scary" as a class feature. However (and I cannot stress this enough), you must also take tomb-tainted soul (or be undead).

If heavy armor is really important to you, the Battle Caster feat from Complete Arcane (p.76) will take you there. I'd just go with the mithral breastplate though, and say it "looks like heavy armor". You're a necromancer, you don't need pants.

There's a really good guide to playing a dread necromancer around someplace, but "take levels of Dread Necromancer" is about 70% of the optimization you need, with "take tomb-tainted soul" being the next 25%.

HalcyonUmbra · Post by **HalcyonUmbra** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:21 pm

fectin wrote:There's a really good guide to playing a dread necromancer around someplace, but "take levels of Dread Necromancer" is about 70% of the optimization you need, with "take tomb-tainted soul" being the next 25%.

This guide? A level 8 build is particularly good, as most guides recommend taking a Prestige Class after 8th. And yeah, Dread Necro is particularly good for a Pathfinder game, as it basically just converts straight over. Energy Burst becomes Channel Energy, Rebuke Undead becomes Control Undead bonus feat, and there ya go.

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:35 pm

OgreBattle wrote:
Bonus points if I can wear heavy armor and be Golbez.

Sweet, now I better know how to be a low level Golbez in Pathfinder, too awesome to not post about.

Also, been wondering how the Magus sucked, in detail, so it's something I could show to a friend. One who is pretty much a "Paizil" at this point, but least then I'd have evidence to show in detail why he's bad. Unless, this is a class that is viable for low levels? which case doesn't really matter, since most people only play low levels to my knowledge anyway. However Mister_Sinister"venomous" review on it was helpful at least, I'd totally approve seeing more poison on Pathfinder being thrown in detail here.

fectin · Post by **fectin** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:16 pm

HalcyonUmbra wrote:
fectin wrote:There's a really good guide to playing a dread necromancer around someplace, but "take levels of Dread Necromancer" is about 70% of the optimization you need, with "take tomb-tainted soul" being the next 25%.
This guide? A level 8 build is particularly good, as most guides recommend taking a Prestige Class after 8th. And yeah, Dread Necro is particularly good for a Pathfinder game, as it basically just converts straight over. Energy Burst becomes Channel Energy, Rebuke Undead becomes Control Undead bonus feat, and there ya go.

Actually, I prefer K's guide (here: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ ... r_Handbook ), but the one you linked quotes most of the important bits anyway.

You probably want to play a human for the bonus feat, since PF lets you give them +2 CHA anyway.

koz · Post by **koz** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:27 pm

Aryxbez wrote:Also, been wondering how the Magus sucked, in detail, so it's something I could show to a friend. One who is pretty much a "Paizil" at this point, but least then I'd have evidence to show in detail why he's bad. Unless, this is a class that is viable for low levels? which case doesn't really matter, since most people only play low levels to my knowledge anyway. However Mister_Sinister"venomous" review on it was helpful at least, I'd totally approve seeing more poison on Pathfinder being thrown in detail here.

In essence, the Magus has the problem of doing nothing well. It isn't a good caster, it isn't a good warrior, it isn't a good skill monkey - basically, it's a bit like MA Ulm in Dom3. It tries to be many things and spectacularly fails at all of them.

As far as low-level viability is concerned - at low level, being a wizard with high Strength hitting things with a club is technically fairly viable. It doesn't mean anything at all to say 'something is viable at low level', because life is pretty cheap then anyway.

If you want poison poured on Pathfinder, I'm game. I can tell you about the 'all feats ever' ninja, or the Knight of the Tome of Copy Spells and Play At Being Cleric Archer. Both of those are quite fun, and should build up my rage a bit.

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:47 pm

Pour away sir, be it here, or even on the "Pathfinder still sucks" thread among things.

Also didn't mean it to excuse the Magus class as sucking, just if say, the class is viable till 8th level. Then it's actually a fine class for most people, since most don't play past 6th-10th anyway. Especially around here, had to play all too many of low level games for my tastes (I'm sure not as much as rest of you have, but still). It's instrumental if I were to show this to my friend, that it actually does suck in Pathfinder-land low levels.

Juton · Post by **Juton** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:52 am

Aryxbez wrote:Pour away sir, be it here, or even on the "Pathfinder still sucks" thread among things.

Also didn't mean it to excuse the Magus class as sucking, just if say, the class is viable till 8th level. Then it's actually a fine class for most people, since most don't play past 6th-10th anyway. Especially around here, had to play all too many of low level games for my tastes (I'm sure not as much as rest of you have, but still). It's instrumental if I were to show this to my friend, that it actually does suck in Pathfinder-land low levels.

Questions of what is and isn't viable are interesting, because in most games the DM dials things down so that characters like a Monk don't feel useless. If you are playing in one of those games than a Magus will work just fine. The Magus suffers from the Pathfinder tendency to just give a class a lot of abilities so that it looks powerful, instead of actually just making it powerful. The Magus shares this with classes like the Monk and Inquisitor.

shirak · Post by **shirak** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:15 am

If you want poison poured on Pathfinder, I'm game. I can tell you about the 'all feats ever' ninja, or the Knight of the Tome of Copy Spells and Play At Being Cleric Archer. Both of those are quite fun, and should build up my rage a bit.

I'm game for some ranting and I always wanted to learn more about PF so venom away please.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:26 pm

OgreBattle wrote:Whoah, Paladin2/Sorcerer 6 looks really cool!

Yeah, I'd really love to still be casting 1st level wizard spells as a 5th level character!!!

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:03 pm

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestig ... d/demoniac

There is absolutely no mechanical reason not to take this class if text still trumps table in PF-land. (Note that in the text, you don't lose a CL). Bullshit spell dc boost for 1 fight? Hell yeah.

And the best part is, you could devote yourself to Abraxas and never do anything really bad. All you need to do is hit yourself and I'm not even kidding.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:10 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote: Yeah, I'd really love to still be casting 1st level wizard spells as a 5th level character!!!

Third level spell slots as sixth level caster, kthxbai, and you're adding something like +4 to all saves.

I'd roll with that if the rest of the party were noncasters. Otherwise I'd feel small in the spellbook.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:13 pm

sigma999 wrote:
Lago PARANOIA wrote: Yeah, I'd really love to still be casting 1st level wizard spells as a 5th level character!!!
Third level spell slots as sixth level caster, kthxbai, and you're adding something like +4 to all saves.

If he's starting at level 8, yes. If he's starting at level 1 and taking paladin levels first, then he'd end up in Lago's situation.

Archmage Joda · Post by **Archmage Joda** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:02 am

At the risk of commandeering this thread, how would I not suck as an Alchemist in a pure pathfinder game (it's pure pathfinder, since my GM doesn't "drink the backward compatibility koolaid" and considers pathfinder its own game)? What archetypes, if any, would be good to go for, and what are the big traps?

CapnTthePirateG · Post by **CapnTthePirateG** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:18 am

I heard mutagen>bombs.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:04 am

Are you starting at Level 8 or higher? If yes, then Bombs get better because of spell effects and Fast Bombs, which lets you go Flasked Avenger on people. Mutagen by itself is no great shakes unless you go Beastmorph Vivisectionist, which gives you a claw claw bite routine and Rogue Sneak Attack with it. At level 10 you get Pounce and it's on like Donkey Kong.

Taking a two drop in Monk of Many Styles (for Dragon Style) or Ninja (goofy shit) wouldn't hurt if you decide to go that route.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:22 am

how about sorcerer/ninja->arcane trickster
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestig ... -trickster

and combat feats, what are good, what is to be avoided? I imagine I'll be using a big sword or a halberd and walking around in mage armor +shield

Archmage Joda · Post by **Archmage Joda** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:59 am

Mask_De_H wrote:Are you starting at Level 8 or higher? If yes, then Bombs get better because of spell effects and Fast Bombs, which lets you go Flasked Avenger on people. Mutagen by itself is no great shakes unless you go Beastmorph Vivisectionist, which gives you a claw claw bite routine and Rogue Sneak Attack with it. At level 10 you get Pounce and it's on like Donkey Kong.

Taking a two drop in Monk of Many Styles (for Dragon Style) or Ninja (goofy shit) wouldn't hurt if you decide to go that route.

Ah, right, forgot that detail. No, not starting at Level 8 or higher. Specifically, starting at level 3