Better saves:

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User3
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Better saves:

Post by User3 »

Better saves:

I was thinking that a better system of saves would be handled like this:

Make your save, a minor effect happens.
Fail your save, a major effect happens.

For example, if a fighter drinks poison, he needs to make a Fort save.
. On a successful save, he takes 1 point of Con damage.
. On a failed save, he take 2d4 points of Con damage.

For people with abilities like Evasion, they get to avoid the effects entirely on a made save.

For example, a rogue gets caught in a pit trap. On a save, he takes falling damage (reduced by Tumble) and is in the pit. On a failed save, he takes falling damage(not reduced by Tumble), and damage from the spikes at the bottom.

If the same rogue had Evasion, then on a successful save he doesn’t fall in the pit at all. He gets an action to avoid the trap, like a leap forward out of the area of the opening pit(Jump check), or he can take a move action, or use a Climb check to attach to the wall.

Basically, this prevents people with high Fort saves from bathing in contact poison or any other such nonsense just because they know that they have high Fort saves.
RandomCasualty
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Re: Better saves:

Post by RandomCasualty »

Well, the problem here is that you can just get a bunch of people with poisoned weapons and kill anyhing. It's ok to do damage on a successful save, but ability drain or energy drain is a lot more dangerous.

As for bathing in contact poison, I'd say that would probably kick up the strength and DC quite a bit. Basically the more poison you've got, the stronger it is. Evident by the vermin of various sizes getting stronger poisons. So literally bathing in contact poison would probably have a DC and poison strength similar ot that of the collosal scorpion, maybe even more, with a heck of a lot of ability drain if you fail.

In other words unless you've got a +40 to your saves, you're basically SOL. And if you do... well with saves that high you really can be swimming in poison.
Username17
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Re: Better saves:

Post by Username17 »

I actually don't mind the concept that enough poison will always kill you - that's how poison actually works after all.

The big question here is one of flavor. People get pretty annoyed when they get hit by web, because they want making a save to mean something in the same way that getting missed or hit means something. Web frustrates people because there is little difference between making and failiing your save.

People become mages because they want big effects. And supposedly, the balance point on those big effects is big failures. Saves to negate are part and parcel of the whole dominate experience.

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Draco_Argentum
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Re: Better saves:

Post by Draco_Argentum »

Half the point of the poison rules is that garden variety spiders don't scare decent level PCs at all. I wouldn't change that.
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Desdan_Mervolam
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Re: Better saves:

Post by Desdan_Mervolam »

Really? Cuz I see that as part of the problem. Poison is a nasty thing IRL, but in game, it doesn't at all warrent it's status of "Stuff only evil people and monsters use".

Actually, I don't like how poison works at all in 3.X anyway. For one thing, I'd like knockout poison to actually render the victim unconcious if they fail their save, rather than just making them really clumsy. What a concept, eh? I'm wholly in favor of save-for-partial poisons, more flexable poison use/creation rules, variable onset times for primary and secondary damage. Also, I want poison to start doing enough ability damage for poison to deserve its reputation as something assassins and cowards use.

-Desdan
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Draco_Argentum
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Re: Better saves:

Post by Draco_Argentum »

It should be changed, a lot. But the basic idea that the PCs don't worry about cobras etc should stay. An assasin's poisoned blade is part of a fun encounter, sitting on a bench and dieing because a redback bit you is not.
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Desdan_Mervolam
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Re: Better saves:

Post by Desdan_Mervolam »

I don't know that I agree. I mean, wether or not you get bit by a snake randomly as you walk through the woods/desert/prarie is probably the providence of a Wilderness Lore/Survival check. And if you do get laid out by it, nothing's saying it can't be an interesting encounter, unless your party's solution for poison damage is "Set him aside and wait for his ability damage to heal"

-Desdan
Don't bother trying to impress gamers. They're too busy trying to impress you to care.
Draco_Argentum
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Re: Better saves:

Post by Draco_Argentum »

Ability damage is a spell away from being healed. Death costs more. Its escapist fantasy, if I wanted to die of snake bite I'd go bushwalking.
Username17
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Re: Better saves:

Post by Username17 »

But it does take something of the magic out when you realize that a viper swarm actually can't hurt you. It turns the "Why did it have to be snakes" scene into a weird parody.

"Oh goody, snakes, that means we can run through that area with out setting off glyphs."

:wtf:

Having somebody hide a black mamba in your money sack is supposed to mean something.

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RandomCasualty
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Re: Better saves:

Post by RandomCasualty »

Frank, I said it before, and I'll say it again... I don't understand you.

You accuse me of having contradictory viewpoints, but seriously you should look at what you're saying in some of these threads. Sometimes you'll take the point of view that the heroes should be total supermen, able to be invulnerable while standing on solid ground and other ridiculous crap like that, and now you want legendary heroes to fear common rattlesnakes.

What gives man? Make up your mind.
Username17
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Re: Better saves:

Post by Username17 »

People should be able to do things in stories. Legendary heroes still fear cobras. Spider Man can leap onto tall buildings, but he still recoils when a deadly viper lunges at him.

D&D characters are story characters. They do story things. That means that while some people should be able to walk through dens of poisonous vipers - most people shouldn't. Even player characters.

The ability "immunity to poison" should simultaneously be available without a lot of crap or a huge investmentin spellcasting, and useful relative to not having it.

This is not a contradictory viewpoint. At all.

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RandomCasualty
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Re: Better saves:

Post by RandomCasualty »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1083856858[/unixtime]]People should be able to do things in stories. Legendary heroes still fear cobras. Spider Man can leap onto tall buildings, but he still recoils when a deadly viper lunges at him.

D&D characters are story characters. They do story things. That means that while some people should be able to walk through dens of poisonous vipers - most people shouldn't. Even player characters.


Frank, most people shouldn't be able to jump off 500' drops and live, but in the D&D universe, any high level character can do that. While poison maybe could be more deadly to a low level character... I don't really think it's a good idea to make it deadlier to high levels. These guys get hit with disintigrate rays, and live through it using pure toughness. A little poison from a common snake isn't that bad in that context.

Now, the poison mechanics could use a little reworking, like paralytic poison making something actually paralyzed instead of just dex drain, but otherwise there isn't that much of a problem.
The_Hanged_Man
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Re: Better saves:

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

High-level? A 10th level barbarian has a good chance of surviving a fall from the Moon. How does one lame mechanic (falling and dropping damage) justify a second lame mechanic (poison)?
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