Feat chains rob people.

[RandomCasualty]

1083656720[/unixtime]]
Players don't get enough skills,

Some classes don't like the fighter, but most of the classes get enough, it's just that the mandatory specialization forces them to not take many skills, so you're left thinking "I never get enough skill points" becasue you can't master everything you want to, and you're totally unwilling to not specialize to the normal extent... so things don't look so well.

The problem is that in D&D having a half skill, that is putting half the maximum number of points, is basically useless. You cannot for instance gain much benefit from 5 ranks instead of 10 in disable device. You either want it at full power, or you don't bother. And really I can't think fo a single way to fix this beyond using a white wolf style scaling cost system. Eventually that 22nd rank in your hide skill has to be expensive enough to encourage you to instead take 4-5 ranks in a less developed skill. Until you can do that you're never going to want to do anything except take that 22nd rank, because that 22nd rank is a 5% benefit to succeed at hide, while the 1 rank you'd gain in knowledge(arcana) wouldn't be able to help you succeed at anything. It'd just be a throwaway rank.

And thus far Frank you haven't told me why the white wolf skill advancement system is bad, you've said everything to avoid the topic, but you've never actually addressed. Thus far you've said "nobody takes skills anyway, they take disciplines" and "The character creation method sucks", neither which prove anything.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

RC: That's largely a problem of perception. Most skills in the game are, in fact, not opposed rolls, which means there is a point of diminishing returns in reference to skill points. A first level character with four ranks and a dex of 12 has a fifty-fifty chance of being able to avoid AoOs while moving through threatened areas using tumble, and that's not even considering higher dex, higher level, and feats like Skill Focus and Acrobatic. If a skill is not directly part of a character's schtick, chances are, the character can probably get away with skimping on the points, or taking ranks cross-class.

-Desdan

[Draco_Argentum]

1083703528[/unixtime]]If a skill is not directly part of a character's schtick, chances are, the character can probably get away with skimping on the points, or taking ranks cross-class.

This is true. Unfortunately those ranks you do have still have to come from somewhere. Knowledge or similar isn't worth having less than max ranks in hide.

Seperate pools of points for different types of skill, a la WW character creation, would work.

[RandomCasualty]

1083716435[/unixtime]]
This is true. Unfortunately those ranks you do have still have to come from somewhere. Knowledge or similar isn't worth having less than max ranks in hide.

Right. That's the problem. There's no incentive to ever pick another skill over your next rank in hide.

[Username17]

Right. That's the problem. There's no incentive to ever pick another skill over your next rank in hide.

There's no incentive for a warrior to ever pick a skill over a bonus to BAB, what's your point?

Signiture skills are just that. There shouldn't ever be a time when people voluntarily stop raising their character's primary schtick with level. It's their primary schtick.

And diversity you get on top of that should be on top of that. And with a class system of advancement, you can do that.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

1083784929[/unixtime]]
And diversity you get on top of that should be on top of that. And with a class system of advancement, you can do that.

But how would you actually do that?

There's simply no way to get people to split their points between various skills without some kind of diminishing returns system.

The only way to do that is to

-Create skills that aren't useful after you've got a certain number of ranks in them, like tumble.

-Charge more for higher skill ranks.

-Grant more skill points to higher level characters. Because of max ranks they'd have to spend the new points elsewhere.

Even separating skills into various catagories doesn't really work, because that means you just pick different skills in each area to specialize in. That's just broader specialization, it's not true organic diversity.

And certain skills should be easier to pick up than others. It should be fairly easy to learn how to swim well, much easier than say... use magic device.

[Maj]

And certain skills should be easier to pick up than others. It should be fairly easy to learn how to swim well, much easier than say... use magic device.

I agree and disagree.

In real life, people are innately better at some things than others are. To add further detail to the skill system would just make buying skills more of a pain in the ass than it's worth. The ability of some people to excel at something more easily than at something else is largely already reflected in the fact that some skills are cross-class, as well as in the lower ability scores of those who don't care as much about the skills those scores relate to.

[Username17]

There's simply no way to get people to split their points between various skills without some kind of diminishing returns system.

You mean like the way we split up people's expenditure into Willpower saves, base attack, hide, and armor class? Cause you realize that is the same thing.

Exactly the same thing.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

1083786888[/unixtime]]
You mean like the way we split up people's expenditure into Willpower saves, base attack, hide, and armor class? Cause you realize that is the same thing.

Exactly the same thing.

Not really, because this isn't forcing people to make a choice between them. You get that will save point regardless. We really can't do that with skills, unless you want to name a specific skill and say "well you get 1 rank in knowledge(arcana) every 3 levels)." thouh that seems very weird.

The magic item system is the closest thing we have to a diminishing returns system, and it works. If you put everything you have into jacking up your AC you pay out the ass and get only minor benefits compared to splitting your gold between a bunch of things. And very few people invest all their money into their sword or their armor because of that.

It's why we see people walking around with all sorts of magic items. It's a diminishing returns system that works.

[Username17]

If you think the magic item system works I honestly don't know what to say to you.

-Username17

[The_Hanged_Man]

"Works" is a relative thing. The exponential cost of magic items works pretty well. It works great w/ weapons and armor, scrolls, and items that give straight +'s to stuff. It works great for the vast majority of wands. It totally breaks down w/ items that grant spell effects. Overall, though, it works really well - compared to every other magic pricing system I've seen.

[RandomCasualty]

I'm talking primarily about the bonus items, not the unique items, because those don't scale anyway.

Magic swords, pearls of power, bracers of armor, magic armor, rings of protection, items of attribute enhancement, etc.

Granted some of the uniques aren't balanced, but I'm not really concerned about them, because they don't demonstrate diminishing returns anyway.

All the items that are priced with a bonus squared style are diminishing returns items, and that's what I'm talking about.