ideas that need to go away

[RadiantPhoenix]

If your shtick is utterly dependent on using a particular type of weapon, then getting such a weapon should be an explicit class feature.

[RobbyPants]

Doesn't 3.5 also have stupid shit like enchanted weapons that aren't enchanted when the monster isn't holding it, so no you don't get that Balor's flaming vorpal sword or some shit?

Just sayin' it isn't a 4e only phenomenon.

Some other monsters might do that, but the closest thing I see in the balor's entry is Death Throes, which would destroy the sword, but it is possible to steal it before killing them.

[shadzar]

If your shtick is utterly dependent on using a particular type of weapon, then getting such a weapon should be an explicit class feature.

the thing is, in most cases it IS a class feature. under weapon proficiencies each class got specific lists, LISTS of weapons they can use and become proficient in.

the one you pick is up to you form those lists, but it wasnt limited to one unless you went into kits that became those crazy premium classes in 3rd.

the problem is when people think that class feature should then give them a RIGHT to specific treasure based on their weapon of choice...aka the wishlist.

how the hell are so many people overlooking the obvious?

armor and weapons exist IN D&D. someone has to make them like a blacksmith. ANY weapon type a character can make himself, is all that is needed. EVERY edition has a system for creating magic items.

WHY THE FUCK DOES THE DM NEED TO HAND THIS OUT THE FUCK AS TREASURE?

you want a fucking uber-rapier but got a screaming flaming greataxe? fucking go get your existing fucking rapier enchanted!

this is what i am talking about "player entitlement" being munchkinism. the player thinks their want for Ivy's weapon from Soul Calber (as a specific example of a weapon only), needs to be handed out as treasure in order to increase its productivity. players want the DM to fucking babysit them.

1st edition and up has had item creation rules and you just need to find a wizard sufficient to enchant the item how you want it.

"player entitlement" somehow trumped "player agency" because players want the DM to hand then everything, rather than players come up with the quest to attain the item they want.

but someone already mentioned that and it was bypassed by all the nay-sayers.

YES. a character concept built around a single type of weapon is a very narrow-minded concept.

NO. the DM doesn't have to hand out your weapon of choice as treasure.

YES. you can find a way to see about getting your weapon of choice "upgraded" if you will, in some manner.

NO. you don't need a wishlist, take what you get and use it however you can until you find a way to acquire what you want YOURSELF.

(this post not directed entirely at you Radiant, but the response to you ties into the bigger problem so no need for a double post.)

PLAYER ENTITLEMENT, needs to go away.

[Fuchs]

Well, you're wrong. If "guy with sword" is ok in a campaign then "guy with a longsword" is perfectly acceptable as well.

Salamanders have flaming spears. You go fight a salamander, you get a fucking flaming spear. It's right there. It exists. If you want to play a game where the flaming spears on salamanders don't drop and you keep using a sword your whole life, go play some fucking World of Warcraft.

In D&D, the enemies have actual equipment and some of it is awesome. And the things you wear and use in battle tell a story about the places you've been and the things you've done. Because the weapons of war used by your opponents are actual objects that you can and will pick up and use when they are defeated. There is a version of D&D that doesn't do that: it's called 4th edition and it fucking sucks.

-Username17

Yes, Salamander have spears. So what? It's not as if all the foes you fight are Salamanders.

If you always fight Salamanders, and never, ever get the chance to exhcange your stupid spear for a flaming rapier, then you need to leave the game because your DM either sucks or is an idiot that wants all his players to play spearmen.

My very first AD&D 2E campaign we had a collection of magical weapons at home after level 10 or so. Those were trophy weapons, not stuff we used. We were using weapons we wanted to wield with our characters.

[Fuchs]

If your shtick is utterly dependent on using a particular type of weapon, then getting such a weapon should be an explicit class feature.

There's no need. It is implied when the DM approves the character. If the DM is not letting the dagger specialist get any dagger loot in teh campaign he's a dick for approving the character in the first place, same as someone approving a character aimed at messing with the minds of his foes is a dick if all they fight are mindless udnead or plants form then on.

[shadzar]

If your shtick is utterly dependent on using a particular type of weapon, then getting such a weapon should be an explicit class feature.

There's no need. It is implied when the DM approves the character. If the DM is not letting the dagger specialist get any dagger loot in teh campaign he's a dick for approving the character in the first place, same as someone approving a character aimed at messing with the minds of his foes is a dick if all they fight are mindless udnead or plants form then on.

tell your mother to get you a new babysitter, cause your current one lets you get away with too much.

[Xur]

Shadzar, you are an idiot beyond believe. Do you really go your way handing players just what showed up on the random chart, with no regard whatsoever to their wishes and tastes?

I get that it becomes old really fast if every session, a player's favourite weapon conveniently shows up in a better version, but really? You got to be kidding.

[shadzar]

Shadzar, you are an idiot beyond believe. Do you really go your way handing players just what showed up on the random chart, with no regard whatsoever to their wishes and tastes?

I get that it becomes old really fast if every session, a player's favourite weapon conveniently shows up in a better version, but really? You got to be kidding.

1. in each edition the PCs have had means to create their own shit. you can make any magic item or spell as a player you want to.

2. with #1 considered, the DM need not hand you shit.

3. treasure WORKS totally random because of #1.

4. when as a DM you know a specific item will be useful to THE PARTY, then you hand-pick and place it into treasure.

as a DM, i do NOT give treasure to ANY single player. treasure is there for the group, and what they do with it is THEIR decision. who gets it in the end is THEIR decision.

because Bob wants a Vorpol Sword, does not mean Bob will find it in treasure. a DM is NOT a babysitter their to wipe the players noses or asses. the DM owes the players NOTHING.

the way i DM has ben explained MANY times, and attempted to be twisted MANY MORE times.

when i DM the world is alive, without consideration for the players. it doesnt exist solely for their characters. it exists for the players to have characters in, but the inhabitants of the world, will funciton as independant entities and groups and communites, and races; and NOT as underlings to do the players biddings or their characters on player whim.

again, why would a rapier be in treasure in an area where the people in the area have NEVER seen one before? mayhaps the player that starts with one got it as an heirloom from long ago and the manufacturing has been outmoded or just forgotten. i am not jsut going to litter the world with rapiers so Zorro the Gay Blade can have more.

i have asked dozens of times with NO answers. how would a rapier get there and why would it or more be there, if NOBODY uses them, and nobody knows how to make them?

the only seeming answer people want to offer is as is within your own posts "because a player wants one". and that is not a valid reason, nor answer. i want a million dollars, so my players need to give me that then, how about them apples?

[Psychic Robot]

Do you really go your way handing players just what showed up on the random chart, with no regard whatsoever to their wishes and tastes?

I have a feeling he does

[fectin]

Shadzar, you are an idiot beyond believe. Do you really go your way handing players just what showed up on the random chart, with no regard whatsoever to their wishes and tastes?

I get that it becomes old really fast if every session, a player's favourite weapon conveniently shows up in a better version, but really? You got to be kidding.

1. in each edition the PCs have had means to create their own shit. you can make any magic item or spell as a player you want to.

Please to explain how I make Spelljamming Helm?

the DM owes the players NOTHING.

Really? Nothing at all?

[shadzar]

Shadzar, you are an idiot beyond believe. Do you really go your way handing players just what showed up on the random chart, with no regard whatsoever to their wishes and tastes?

I get that it becomes old really fast if every session, a player's favourite weapon conveniently shows up in a better version, but really? You got to be kidding.

1. in each edition the PCs have had means to create their own shit. you can make any magic item or spell as a player you want to.

Please to explain how I make Spelljamming Helm?

the DM owes the players NOTHING.

Really? Nothing at all?

1. the fuck if i know, Spelljammer isnt D&D, but a spin-off. look in its campaign setting material to find out. odds are if you are using that, then your DM will ahve that info for you, or IIRC, you will find one and not HAEV to make it. THEN once out there, you might learn how and go from there.

2. no the DM owes the players nothing. why would he?

if the players act like spoiled brats that dont get exactly what they asked for at christmas, why should the DM treat them any different?

[RadiantPhoenix]

There's no need. It is implied when the DM approves the character. If the DM is not letting the dagger specialist get any dagger loot in teh campaign he's a dick for approving the character in the first place, same as someone approving a character aimed at messing with the minds of his foes is a dick if all they fight are mindless udnead or plants form then on.

I'm pretty sure this is the Oberoni fallacy.

shadzar exists, and lazy DMs exist, therefore there is a need.

[Xur]

I know its totally pointless to argue with you, Shadzar, but just for the fun of it: you realize that a party, which, according to your prior posting, you would give hand-picked treasure if you can see a group benefit in doing so, consists of single, individual players?

So, giving Bob a vorpal sword is not only catering towards the player, but the party as well because their fighting capabilites now have increased as a whole. You speak like the party is a vague force in the background that has nothing in common with an individual player. Worse, you say a DM owes the players nothing... I sence Gygax dickery all over the place, in fact, your posting reeks of it.

And, because I know you'll come up with a single-case counter argument, I am not speaking of ididocy wishes like a player wants to have a longsword when the game takes place in the bronze age, where such things just didn't exist - that is out of question.

[shadzar]

I know its totally pointless to argue with you, Shadzar, but just for the fun of it: you realize that a party, which, according to your prior posting, you would give hand-picked treasure if you can see a group benefit in doing so, consists of single, individual players?

So, giving Bob a vorpal sword is not only catering towards the player, but the party as well because their fighting capabilites now have increased as a whole. You speak like the party is a vague force in the background that has nothing in common with an individual player. Worse, you say a DM owes the players nothing... I sence Gygax dickery all over the place, in fact, your posting reeks of it.

And, because I know you'll come up with a single-case counter argument, I am not speaking of ididocy wishes like a player wants to have a longsword when the game takes place in the bronze age, where such things just didn't exist - that is out of question.

well the problem is a vorpal sword really doesnt benefit the party any more than random weapon Y.

what i mean i nobody has or even thought of needing a weapon with ice properties. nobody has any ice type attacks with spells or anything. the hand-picked item is just that, something they didnt prepare for, but the course of the adventure will, and likely soon, require something like that to the benefit of the party.

it doesnt mean Bob specifically gets this ice weapon, but the party does. Bob got it when he was wanting something else TOO SPECIFIC.

what the fuck happened to the days D&D was a game about adventuring and overcoming obstacles along the way? where the treasure you found was also an obstacle in finding ways to make use of it, even if only reducing it to value in coinage?

this is the whole problem with the "player entitlement". the game is being turned into Minister James Wyatt's little no devils and demons, but kill things and take their stuff games. that is how character concept has been thrown out for builds including required weapons. people dont play to actually do anything in the game, but to collect rewards and certificates of accomplishments along the way.

where did the adventure in adventurer go, and become Mary Sue heroes from cliche Sony/ Warner Bros movies?

no matter how bad the production values of it was, there was no difference in tone between D&D the movie, and Wrath of the Dragon God. both movies involved people being thrown into circumstances beyond their control and having to figure a way out of them. NEITHER movie had people looking for uber-weapon Y as the goal. the thieves wanted to steal anything, the dwarf wanted money, the humans wanted to get it over with and get back to life.

stop looking for the BFG in D&D because it doesnt exist. the best weapon to use will ALWAYS depend on the situation, not because it has the most pluses on it.

you can sense what you want, but tell me ANY reason a DM would owe the players any fucking thing, and WHY?

you seem also to want a babysitter, not a DM.

[Soda]

I get pretty pissed every time I see "player entitlement" in quotes like that.

I'm PLAYING a fucking GAME. I'm not entitled to have fun playing a fucking game?

I never should have taken shadzar off ignore. *grumble grumble*

[fectin]

1. Cool. Then the answer is "Play 3rd edition, because that's the one which lets you make random magic devices". Good advice.

2. Common curtesy? A fun game? Respect?

[shadzar]

1. Cool. Then the answer is "Play 3rd edition, because that's the one which lets you make random magic devices". Good advice.

2. Common curtesy? A fun game? Respect?

i guess you are replying to me....?

1. what the fuck does 3rd have to do with Spelljammer that you asked about? also 1st and 2nd edition lets players make their own magic items, as well does 4th...i think. cant remember D&D itself right now, but pretty sure that players could make things in it too in the RC.

2. a DM doesnt owe anything. a DM is offering a game. be in it or not, you chose the DM, no mater hwat excuse you have for it. you get the game. Respect is earned, not given, and in the case of the munchkins here wanting uber-weapon to fulfill their dream of being Zorro the Gay Blade, well D&D doesnt offer that unless you find someone willing to give that. again the DM doesnt owe any specific weapon to players. As noted in #1 the players have always had the ability to make their own magic spells and items, but most dont want to take the time and think it owed to them by the DM.

the DM makes a world to play in, makes obstacles to overcome, links them together with a pleasing story, and the players cant contribute to anything including making their own shit? that is where this "player entitlement" (see it in quotes Soda?) shit came from with players having a need for Ye Olde Magick Shoppe. as a player take the risks of your treasure to make your own magic items and dont depend on your fairy godmother to whisp in and make sure you have those glass slippers to attend the ball.

[Xur]

It's like a trainwreck with spills of blood and corpses lying around... you can't stop looking, no matter how nasty the look of it.

Anyways, back to topic. Shadzar, your whole argument is a thing that needs to go away. DM's who think they don't owe their players anything (like a good game, fun and spotlight for everyone, adventure, drama, nothing?). For someone who has the tagline "Play the game, not the rules." in his signature, you certainly act like someone who's really attached to what a random chart table says. To make things worse, you try to turn an argument of "don't give players weapons they don't want and cannot use properly within their imagined character shtick" into a rant about the good ol' days of proper adventuring.

1. Cool. Then the answer is "Play 3rd edition, because that's the one which lets you make random magic devices". Good advice.

2. Common curtesy? A fun game? Respect?

+ fucking 1.

[Swordslinger]

also 1st and 2nd edition lets players make their own magic items, as well does 4th...i think.

While technically 1E/2E let you make items, the process was so unbelievably brutal that you were always better off just questing after the item rather than making it, given that you had an arbitrary list of DM ingredients, one of which was actually supposed to be something crazy like "the breath of a shadow" or something else intangible.

Then you had to blow a permanent Con point, and after that, there was a percentage that the item wouldn't work or would be cursed.

[shadzar]

For someone who has the tagline "Play the game, not the rules." in his signature, you certainly act like someone who's really attached to what a random chart table says.

that is probably because you dont read...

i didnt say i was attached to a chart, but everything need not be hand-placed. what it will NOT be is some wishlist.

the more a player tells me they want something, the less likely they are going to get it. i am NOT your mommy or your daddy whose responsibility is to spoil you with gifts and kiss ass so the law doesnt come pres neglect charges.

it is solely about the player attitude. the one brought on by the "player entitlement" movement. the exact shit people thinking the DM owes them something.

what do the players do for the DM? name one thing?

your horseshit about the DM owing the players a good game and the wishlist of items is just that horseshit.

you want to talk about respect, there is nothing, prior to the pile of Maxus feces that is 4th edition, that says a player gets some wishlist fulfilled in D&D.

this video game mentality that a store that sells magic items needs to be there for a TTRPG, is wrong. the video games did it because the player could NOT create their own magic items as the limits of the computer code. slightly improved when you could make a FEW things, or place them in your own games, but you had to design everything with the gold box engine and Forgotten Realms Unlimited Adventures, then the PC version of NWN, tried to give you options to make your own items, but still for some reason had the ability of a magic shop.

but those video games did NOT emulate fully the scope of a TTRPG, only gave you a taste with what the computer could do, and they will NEVER be able to be the fulls cope. OpenRPG is NOT a game, but telecommunications software. it doesnt work with the weapons or have any limits that a game would where the weapon has to be coded within the rules.

the playes could ALWAYS make their own items, but they are too lazy, they cant imagine it to be heroic, or some other fucking excuse, and want to blame DMs for not handing them something.

that is total bullshit.

the charts are a good baseline to work from when you augment the game for your own world. treaqsure gets placed by the DM at the DMs choosing of where and how, as well as WHAT.

again it seems people trying to change something they didnt understand to begin with because they failed to take the time to understand it, even when explained to them over and over.

4th edition was the first version of A GAME, that had D&D logo placed on it...that claims the players should get what they want. it never required this change before, and not everyone wants that style of play. the sad thing is that many always thought that was the intent...again when the fact is the players can make their own items...3rd had profesion and crafting skills, 2nd had fletching NWP, but someone had to make arrows in the woods for the ranger in 1st even if it didnt have a codified method of 100 pages of rules for making an arrow. it was the ranger who made his own arrows.

just because you want to bring your real-world lazines into the game because you dont know how or want to make your own coffee table but buy it from Ikea, doesnt mean Ikea or mass-produced goods exist in the games world.

D&D is medieval fantasy at its roots and for the most part models that with the kingdoms, prices, etc; not steampunk...that is eBerron.

so why can the characters not make their own shit? oooh lok a hero, but her cant even make his own armor or take care of it like our local and laughable drunk blacksmith. this is hte measure of the heroes in today's games? sounds more like the heroes in those games where the DM must babysit the PCs and the players, are more like CEOs of Merrel Lynch...they dont really do anything but get paid lots for it.

think about what you are saying, or others in regards to these treasure wishlists. REALLY think about it, and tell me how it isnt laziness on the part of the players? rules exist so the PCs can make their own stuff, so why are the players so lazy they dont want to do it?

[shadzar]

also 1st and 2nd edition lets players make their own magic items, as well does 4th...i think.

While technically 1E/2E let you make items, the process was so unbelievably brutal that you were always better off just questing after the item rather than making it, given that you had an arbitrary list of DM ingredients, one of which was actually supposed to be something crazy like "the breath of a shadow" or something else intangible.

Then you had to blow a permanent Con point, and after that, there was a percentage that the item wouldn't work or would be cursed.

quesitng after it doesnt mean finding it in the next dragon's hoard though. finding someone who it would be less risk to make and much higher chance of succes is also a quest.

EverQuest had Epic Quests, for the Epic Weapons....they actually sucked for the most part, but people enjoyed the hell out of them. the game didnt force you to do it, but was "player driven".

that is what i am talking about. the need for an item for some of these people here thinks it should be found in the Hill Giants rare loot drop, rather than finding other ways like a character in the game world would do, to actually get this item.

DragonSlayer he happened to find a blacksmith to help him make a spear.

the people just wanting it in treasure rather than taking the initiative to make or seek out a way to make it themselves is what is so disconcerting.

all the "i want i want i want", well get off your lazy ass and go find out how to, where to, or who to.

the ones going "the DM owes me a magical rapier in treasure because that is what my character uses and the DM approved my character", need to be ran over by OJ in his white Bronco. but i really shouldnt be saying that about those 12 year olds here on the forums that keep thinking they deserve a magic item because that is what they want so it is owed to them.

[Prak]

Jesus christ, people, this argument has gone on how long? Shadzar hates wishlists, everyone else thinks their character is entitled to get, in some way, the weapon their character concept uses.

That's it, and no ones going to change the other side's mind.

Personally, I try to give players treasure hauls that keep their shticks in mind, but occasionally, they get random shit and have to sell it, and then I let them go shopping for what their shtick needs. I think shadzar does roughly the same, but gets a bit spiteful when players whine for specific items, which honestly is fair. I overall disagree with shadzar's approach of the game, but hey! I don't have to play with him!

Can we move onto a different discussion that might actually get somewhere?

[shadzar]

with the exception Ye Olde Magick Shoppe doesnt exist to go buy any or every thing.

[Prak]

with the exception Ye Olde Magick Shoppe doesnt exist to go buy any or every thing.

Are there wizards willing to take commissions?

[shadzar]

with the exception Ye Olde Magick Shoppe doesnt exist to go buy any or every thing.

Are there wizards willing to take commissions?

finding someone who it would be less risk to make and much higher chance of success is also a quest.