9/11 Anniversaries, or "OH DEAR GOD FORBID WE FORGET!"

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:31 pm

The only problem I have with it is the commercialization of the day. Ever time there is a tragic event there is some kind of commemorative plate, coin, or plaque.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:38 pm

And the blatant rewriting of history by the Bush people is pretty disgusting.

The guy on the rubbleheap, with Bush during the Megaphone moment. The Bush people are trying to say it was 'spontaneous' and the guy just happened to be up there, and President Bush told him to stay. But the rescue guy, was actually told to go up on that heap of rubble, and wait.

They're trying to cast Bush in the light of "he knew what he was doing" and that's just not how it was.

Wesley Street · Post by **Wesley Street** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:07 pm

2001 to 2011 was a ten year-span where we could have learned something and become better people. We didn't. We became shittier, more self-absorbed and went shopping. Our economic policies already had the Third World thinking we were assholes - now everyone else does too.

Pax Americana. Hurrah.

Edit: Grammar.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:35 pm

I still remember Pundits going on about how real American patriots go shopping on Credit.

America took a genuine moment when the rest of the world actually felt a united sense of loss and unity with the US, and shat on it. Pretty awesome.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:17 pm

I'm ok with Memorials, I can understand why people would want to take a moment, or a day, to mourn the loss of their friends and loved ones in the attack.

What I find ridiculous is this Patriot Day (yes, I just learned it's called that) bullshit. These big country music/Fox News bullshit things where all the tea baggers come out, and make a big "Oh we're so patriotic" show and try to shame everyone who wants to just get on with their lives. We acknowledge it happened, but it's done with now. Shaming the leftists isn't going to change anything. We can move on, and let those who feel they need to grieve do so without waving flags and shit in their faces.

Wesley Street · Post by **Wesley Street** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:22 pm

My younger brother was killed almost exactly one month before 9/11 at age 20. My family and I grieved. Hard. We had a few small remembrances over the years. It would almost be easy to let it go into the fuzziness of memory if 9/11 hadn't occurred so soon afterward. But my family has been able to move on and other than nostalgic conversations the hurt is gone. I know it would be a lot harder if every year a jumped-up idiot was yelling at me to remember, remember, remember.

9/11 commemorations aren't about honoring the dead. It's a big, fat, imperialistic, media-driven "America, Fuck Yeah!" that would make any Pearl Harbor (because that's the only thing we seem capable of comparing it to) survivor feel embarrassed.

Here are your bread and circuses people. Ignore that we're unsuccessfully occupying a country that the British and Soviet Empires couldn't keep a grasp on. Pretend this second war we started wasn't on false and illegal pretenses. Aren't taxes the tools of limousine liberal fascists? Put tea bags on your tri-corner hats and and get cash for your gold!

ckafrica · Post by **ckafrica** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:54 am

I hope everybody took part in 9/12 commemorations

Post by **fbmf** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:53 pm

Looks like the Taliban remembered.

Game On,
fbmf

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:37 pm

Gutfeld: ‘Go to hell Paul Krugman, you bitter bearded buffoon’

I couldn't have said it any better.

Paul Krugman is a
Bitter Bearded Buffoon
Bitter Bearded Buffoon
Bitter Bearded Buffoon

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:42 pm

<shrug> Factually, Krugman is correct. Bush had plans to invade Iraq before he got into office, the 9/11 attack just gave him the popular support to do it. And yeah, I have difficulty taking seriously anyone that uses the phrase "wickedness" in real life.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:43 pm

Uh... George Bush capitalized on the deaths of three thousand Americans to push us into a war on false pretenses that got hundreds of thousands of people in a completely irrelevant country killed. That is historical fact. This is the post in question:

Paul Krugman wrote:Is it just me, or are the 9/11 commemorations oddly subdued?

Actually, I don’t think it’s me, and it’s not really that odd.

What happened after 9/11 — and I think even people on the right know this, whether they admit it or not — was deeply shameful. The atrocity should have been a unifying event, but instead it became a wedge issue. Fake heroes like Bernie Kerik, Rudy Giuliani, and, yes, George W. Bush raced to cash in on the horror. And then the attack was used to justify an unrelated war the neocons wanted to fight, for all the wrong reasons.

A lot of other people behaved badly. How many of our professional pundits — people who should have understood very well what was happening — took the easy way out, turning a blind eye to the corruption and lending their support to the hijacking of the atrocity?

The memory of 9/11 has been irrevocably poisoned; it has become an occasion for shame. And in its heart, the nation knows it.

That is 100% true. Sorry asshole, 9/11 was 10 years ago now, you don't get to shout down all debate over terrible policies with "Remember 9/11!"

-Username17

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:59 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:Uh... George Bush capitalized on the deaths of three thousand Americans to push us into a war on false pretenses that got hundreds of thousands of people in a completely irrelevant country killed. That is historical fact.

NO that is not historical fact. As Anchiet History pointed out, George Bush's push for the war against Iraq started months before 9/11. The event probably delayed the whole process considerably, given the initial surge to defeat the Taliban.

In any event, only a completely vile fuck face like Paul Krugman (and Frank Trollman) would even consider this vile tirade a letigimate post for the day of the 10th anniversary of a day when thousdans of people died, and thousands of people risked their own lives (most dying) to save others.

Ten years later, my next door neighbor IS STILL DEAD. So it's still a big fucking deal with me. People are still dying to this very day from all the problems they got from rescuing people on that day.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:02 pm

tzor wrote: Ten years later, my next door neighbor IS STILL DEAD. So it's still a big fucking deal with me. People are still dying to this very day from all the problems they got from rescuing people on that day.

And yet... instead of criticizing the vultures who crassly exploited the memory of your neighbor for political gain, you're criticizing people who dare to be disgusted by those vultures. Where is the logic there?

-Username17

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:08 pm

anyone remember the health care related video where the "well off" man bitching about him not having to pay for someone else's health care to the volunteer firewoman that helped rescue people?

why hasnt that issue been resolved yet?

when you open a can of worms, expect to get a bit dirty Frank...

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:14 pm

Where were the Republicans for voting for money to help pay for healh care for those rescuers?
Oh right, they were too busy screaming "remember 9/11" to vote for it.

Because, "how will we pay for it.. I need my brazilian wax every week."

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:16 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:And yet... instead of criticizing the vultures who crassly exploited the memory of your neighbor for political gain, you're criticizing people who dare to be disgusted by those vultures. Where is the logic there?

He had ten years to bring up the subject and 365 days of the year to talk about it. He brings up the subject on the day when it's probably the worst time of the year to bring it up. And why?

But since he did bring it up, should I bring up the point that after 9/11 Krugman was doing the Nero Happy dance about how the collapse of the towers could lead to a Kensian Government Spending Spree to help the ecoivery from the post Dot Com Bubble Burst economy. The Exploiter complaining about others exploiting.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:30 pm

tzor wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:Uh... George Bush capitalized on the deaths of three thousand Americans to push us into a war on false pretenses that got hundreds of thousands of people in a completely irrelevant country killed. That is historical fact.
NO that is not historical fact. As Anchiet History pointed out, George Bush's push for the war against Iraq started months before 9/11. The event probably delayed the whole process considerably, given the initial surge to defeat the Taliban.

Please don't loop me in with your insanity. The fact that Bush was planning system murder for political purposes before there was an event that he could use to piggyback his illegal invasion of Iraq is not in any sense a good thing.

In any event, only a completely vile fuck face like Paul Krugman (and Frank Trollman) would even consider this vile tirade a letigimate post for the day of the 10th anniversary of a day when thousdans of people died, and thousands of people risked their own lives (most dying) to save others.

"Vile tirade"? It's pretty understated, really. The only one wiping spittle from the screen is you and the jackass you linked to.

I mean, let's be serious: the attack on the World Trade Center on 11 September 2001 was a horrific instance of terrorism. Thousands died, thousands of more were injured, major property damage took place, workers and firefighters that assisted are still dealing with lung disease and injuries they suffered at the event. Families still feel the loss, people still hurt.

...and the politicians jumped on it like a fucking pony. More people, civilian and military, died in the first and second battles of Fallujah than died in the twin towers attack. We're looking at maybe 100,000 dead combatants in Iraq alone and over 100,000 dead civilians, and for what? A war started on false premises, spurred on by the memory of 3,000 dead Americans. What sort of message are we sending there? That if you kill 3,000 of us, we will invade your country and kill more than 30 times as many of you, who had nothing to do with attacking us? And that's not even getting into the financials - how government contractors raided the US war chest like it was a fucking piggy bank, US mercenaries killed and raped civilians - including Americans that were over in Iraq on contract - and we spent, are spending, and will spend billions more on these conflicts, while people at home complain about the runaway deficit and want a cut in spending things to fix or improve American infrastructure, education, and social services.

So yes, 9/11 is shameful. Because Americans died, and people locked arms, and did horrible, horrible things in their memory. We should be ashamed at the result of our actions, for being complicit in doing them, for not dealing intelligently and compassionately with the outcome once it became clear what the hell was going on.

Post by **fbmf** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:11 pm

What would the "proper" response to 9/11 have been? How should America have responded?

EDIT: Other than "don't us 9/11 as a justification for invading Iraq". I'm totally with you on that. Saddam needed to be taken down, but justifying it by saying "Remember the Towers" was shady. So, other than that, how should America have responded?

Game On,
fbmf

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:39 pm

by capturing the responsible parties and finding a proper way to put them to justice.

We did the first part, not so sure I believe we did the second.

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:40 pm

Improved disaster prevention and relief systems in the United States. An effort to educate the population of the world on the reasons for the attack, and a multinational effort to address those issues so that they do not happen again.

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:49 pm

I squarely blame the Democrats for bending over and letting the Bush White House do what ever they wanted. For actually buying the crap that if you said a word in opposition you were unamerican and a traitor.

I am sick and tired of the Republicans and their "Real America". And that the US decided to go Eliot Ness on a country that took no part in 9/11. I mean, the Kingdom of Morocco has more ties with Al Qaeda than Iraq did at the time.

One side of the aisle railroaded the other side into thinking Torture was right and proper. They even got people who were tortured themselves to sign on.

America's reaction to 9/11 was nothing short of shameful.

Post by **fbmf** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:58 pm

Ancient History wrote:Improved disaster prevention and relief systems in the United States. An effort to educate the population of the world on the reasons for the attack, and a multinational effort to address those issues so that they do not happen again.

We shouldn't have gone in and beat down the responsible parties? Why not?

I'm not really seeing "reform" as a viable option in this instance.

Game On,
fbmf

sabs · Post by **sabs** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:04 pm

Going in after the Taliban, and Al Qaeda was fine and appropriate response. We should not have pulled troops out of Afghanistan so we could fight Iraq. We should have been in and out of Afghanistan in 5 years tops. Not 10+ years.

We have put an incredible strain on the lives of our Armed Forces, for the worse possible reasons.

Post by **fbmf** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:06 pm

sabs wrote:Going in after the Taliban, and Al Qaeda was fine and appropriate response. We should not have pulled troops out of Afghanistan so we could fight Iraq. We should have been in and out of Afghanistan in 5 years tops. Not 10+ years.

We have put an incredible strain on the lives of our Armed Forces, for the worse possible reasons.

I'm with you, but it is to be expected even if its dead wrong. Consider Germany and Vietnam.

Game On,
fbmf

Ancient History · Post by **Ancient History** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:20 pm

The Taliban was crucial in supporting and protecting Al-Qaeda, and I don't fault an international effort to pick it the fuck apart - that's part and parcel of identifying and addressing the root causes of the attack. I don't like that the invasion had no clear objectives, exit strategy, or long-term initiative to create a kind of Afghanistan where the events that led to that attack were likely to occur.