Save-or-Suck/Battlefield Control that allows a save: Differe

[CalibronXXX]

In the my efforts to re-write the Incarnum system I of course took a good long look at what kinds of options, and how many of each, the new Incarnate's Soulmelds gave him at various levels. Much to my embarrassment, while checking to see how many effective De-buffs(or Save-or-Sucks as you lot like to call them) and Battlefield Control options he got, I realized that unless the effect directly altered the condition of the battlefield, ala Solid Fog or Wall of X, I couldn't tell the difference between a SoS and BC that allows a save.

If I'm not mistaken Web is considered Battlefield Control and Glitter Dust is considered a Save-or-Suck; why is this? Both allow a save to negate(basically anyway), both effect an area, and both inflict conditions you really don't want to have. So what's the difference? I mean, I can tell that, even thought they both allow a save to negate(again more or less), Grease is Battlefield Control since it actually changes the terrain, and Feeblemind is a Save-or-Suck(or maybe lose) since it's single target and it um...well, I'm not sure...what was my point again. Oh well...

So really, what I'm asking for is a definition of both categories, so that I might banish my ignorance. Thanks.

[Immortius]

Glitterdust doesn't affect an area - it effects creatures within the area at the time of casting. Battlefield control is about filling areas of the battlefield with persisting effects to control movement, I believe, so Glitterdust doesn't qualify.

I think that a spell can actually fit into both categories - they're not mutually exclusive.

[JonSetanta]

I see the Save-or-X types as 2 distinctions:

1 if it ends combat immediately, it's a Die
2 if it sets up a combo, or delays a foe, or otherwise hinders but not ends encounter, it's a Suck

But these 2 are obvious.
However when applied to Battlefield Control, it's pretty much same thing, yet in larger Area of Effect.

Seperating the Suck from AoE doesn't come to my mind; I see the BC as just a modification of method-for-delivery of either Die or Suck, rather than.. say... long range single target, touch attack, or a 'landmine' delivery like a Rune, etc.

[Immortius]

Hmmm... in my mind something like a wall of stone or wall of force would also count as battlefield control, but it clearly isn't a save vs anything.

[bitnine]

1186487150[/unixtime]]If I'm not mistaken Web is considered Battlefield Control and Glitter Dust is considered a Save-or-Suck; why is this?

Well, as per the name, it seems a bit self-evident to me. Glitterdust has an impact on a few creatures, and then it is done. Web may have an immediate impact on a set of creatures, but it also leaves a big ol' web on the battlefield. That's a standing condition that is going to affect the possible actions and conditions of creatures involved in the encounter, even Joe Mob who shows up well after the casting. Battlefield control is that sort of standing impact, the ability to control the subsequent actions of the whole set of battle participants by making certain courses of action impossible or undesirable. Herding, splitting, and entrapping are the powerful mojo of battlefield control.

That being said, a spell like web indeed has aspects of both. Cast on a target, it debuffs them. And after that, it influences the battle.

[Username17]

1186497002[/unixtime]]Hmmm... in my mind something like a wall of stone or wall of force would also count as battlefield control, but it clearly isn't a save vs anything.

Read wall of stone again. It allows you to trap people inside the wall if they fail a Reflex Save. Since getting trapped in a pillary of stone takes a while to extricate yourself from and leaves you helpless while it's ongoing - wall of stone is one of the most fearsome Save-or-Die spells in the game.

It's 5th level. It's a utility spell (make bridges, stairs, dams, whatever!), it's a battlefield control spell (put walls between you and the other half of their group while you kill the first half), and it's a save-or-die (trap enemies in stone while the Rogue wanders around slitting throats). Reflex or Die. Good times.

-Username17

[RandomCasualty]

1186506401[/unixtime]]

Read wall of stone again. It allows you to trap people inside the wall if they fail a Reflex Save. Since getting trapped in a pillary of stone takes a while to extricate yourself from and leaves you helpless while it's ongoing - wall of stone is one of the most fearsome Save-or-Die spells in the game.

Well technically while it says you can "Trap" people, there's nothing there about making them helpless. In fact, in the first paragraph of the spell it says the wall can't be conjured so that it occupies the same space as a creature or another object. At best, I'd say trapping in this case just means walling the creature off on four sides and that the creature could still attack the wall from within. There's nothing at all saying that you can't take actions or are helpless while trapped within a wall of stone.

[CalibronXXX]

Ah, so that's it, lasting impact on the fight beyond the original targets, Thank you, this has been most helpful.

Turns out the (New)Incarnate has approximately 1 BC option(and 1 Pseudo BC semi buff option) and it doesn't come into play until painfully late levels. I'll need to rectify this.

[Voss]

And you have to love a spell description that doesn't specify what, exactly, being trapped 'within or under' actually does. Is suffocation an issue? (it should be, if done right) Do they have enough room to swing a weapon in there and try to free themselves? Make somatic gestures for spells?

[Username17]

1186508986[/unixtime]]And you have to love a spell description that doesn't specify what, exactly, being trapped 'within or under' actually does. Is suffocation an issue? (it should be, if done right) Do they have enough room to swing a weapon in there and try to free themselves? Make somatic gestures for spells?

It's holdover text. The old wording that it could be created right through people if they failed a Reflex save is still in there and they added new text that it couldn't be made in occupied squares.

So um... if they make their Reflex save it can't be created in occupied squares? Fvck if I know, it's an example of authorial plegm from Andy Collins. It's as bad as the Polymorph Poison question. Adding new text that says that something is or is not possible is something you should only do if you are going to delete the old text that said exactly the opposite.

-Username17

[Catharz]

I'm pretty sure that wall of stone is supposed to operate in such a way that you can't create the stone itself in an occupied square, but you can completely enclose one. If you try to do so, the creature to be trapped gets so make a reflex save to escape the area before you surround it.

[CalibronXXX]

1186510545[/unixtime]]I'm pretty sure that wall of stone is supposed to operate in such a way that you can't create the stone itself in an occupied square, but you can completely enclose one. If you try to do so, the creature to be trapped gets so make a reflex save to escape the area before you surround it.

So you can use Wall of Stone to somehow give someone a bonus action to move five feet?

[RandomCasualty]

1186510545[/unixtime]]I'm pretty sure that wall of stone is supposed to operate in such a way that you can't create the stone itself in an occupied square, but you can completely enclose one. If you try to do so, the creature to be trapped gets so make a reflex save to escape the area before you surround it.

Always figured the spell would just fizzle if it succeeded on the save as it says that Wall of stone can't be cast on a square occupied by a creature.

[Voss]

1186512752[/unixtime]]

1186510545[/unixtime]]I'm pretty sure that wall of stone is supposed to operate in such a way that you can't create the stone itself in an occupied square, but you can completely enclose one. If you try to do so, the creature to be trapped gets so make a reflex save to escape the area before you surround it.

So you can use Wall of Stone to somehow give someone a bonus action to move five feet?

10 or more. They have to get past the square(s) the wall occupies as well.

In theory you could wrap 30' of wall around a 5' 'open' square in the center, and if they pass the reflex save, they instantly move past that 30' to an open square... even if their base speed is 20' *and* their suffering from a slow spell. Amazing, isn't it?

But yep, there are a few spells like this dotted about that give out of turn and completely non standard movement to creatures that pass their save. Usually battlefield control spells in which a successful save means they can move to the edge of the area.

[JonSetanta]

Wow and I always prefered Explosive Spell or Telekinesis to do 'free movement'....

[erik]

1186494139[/unixtime]]Glitterdust doesn't affect an area - it effects creatures within the area at the time of casting.

I know this is how everyone and their cats play it. But is that actually what the spell says?

Isn't it equally reasonable to read the spell as creating an area bursting full of glitterdust that lasts for 1 rnd/level and also affects characters who fail their save as long as the spell is in action.

This interpretation would make it both a save or suck and battlefield control akin to stinking cloud or shadow spray.

As near as I can tell, that interpretation (a glitterdust cloud that continues to affect an area) is likely the more correct one.

[Fwib]

Is it arguable that "Creatures and objects within 10-ft.-radius spread" means that leaving the area stops the spell affecting you, or does "All within the area are covered by the dust, which cannot be removed and continues to sparkle until it fades." over-ride it?

[Username17]

It's a spread not an emanation, so it should affect every thing within range of the explosion point rather than continuing to affect an area around the point. There are spells that get this wrong, but that's how a spread should work.

-Username17

[JonSetanta]

So a spread, in effect, does something along the lines of, say, Fireball... "This spell instantaneously changes the surrounding air and portions of objects into magical fire." rather than "This spell explodes into a giant sphere of flame from the point of detonation."
So you can't hide behind a towershield, since the space behind it is changed into fire rather than blocking against the direction of flames.

[erik]

I was unawares of a specific connotation for spread that meant instantaneous duration in d20/DnD.

Is there a reference for it or is it implied/induced from its usage with other obviously instantaneous effects?

[Iaimeki]

1186747406[/unixtime]]I was unawares of a specific connotation for spread that meant instantaneous duration in d20/DnD.

Is there a reference for it or is it implied/induced from its usage with other obviously instantaneous effects?

From the SRD, Magic Overview, Area Spells:

A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, even including creatures that you can’t see. It can’t affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don’t extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst’s area defines how far from the point of origin the spell’s effect extends.

An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.

A spread spell spreads out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.

Reading between the lines, the distinction between an emanation and a burst is that the former's effect continues for the duration of the spell, while the latter's doesn't. Thus, it seems like a spread shouldn't continue to affect a duration, since it's, "like a burst."

Of course, WotC doesn't follow its own nomenclature, so all of this should be taken with a grain of salt.