What is it about "Low Magic?"

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

Moderator: Moderators

Manxome
Knight-Baron
Posts: 977
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: What is it about "Low Magic?"

Post by Manxome »

RandomCasualty at [unixtime wrote:1186308458[/unixtime]]Well, his healing was decent... but not great. I mean he couldn't heal Frodo from the Nazgul weapons, and his healing wasn't described in that much detail if I recall correctly, so for all we know it may just be advanced uses of the 'heal' skill.


The fact that there's some specific form of rare dark magic that he can't heal in the middle of the wilderness with no special supplies hardly means that his healing isn't great. His kingdom has legends about the extraordinary healing powers of the king and he secretly enters Minas Tirith to run around and heal a bunch of people so injured from combat that they're beyond the skill of professional physicians (that part got cut out of the movies, of course). I'd call that pretty awesome healing.

You could, of course, represent that with a really high "heal" skill. You could also represent the ability to raise the dead with a really high "heal" skill. But when your character has secondary abilities powerful enough to laugh at lifetime specialists, whether it's "just a skill" or not is merely flavor text. You're flat-out not following the same rules as lesser mortals.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: What is it about "Low Magic?"

Post by Username17 »

RC wrote:Remember that we're talking about low magic here, and that means that our low magic characters tend to play out like fantasy novel characters. So skills inherently shouldn't be doing anything that people aren't doing in fantasy novels.


The main characters of Fantasy Novels, or anyone else in Fantasy Novels?

Because last time I checked, main characters in fantasy novels do crazy shit like stop time and destroy cities with their anger. All the time. Even main characters in relatively low key settings like Game of Thrones take time out of their day to raise the dead and train dragon armies.

Let's take this one fantasy book at a time:
  • In The Assassin's Apprentice the main character eventually gains the ability to steal the souls out entire villages worth of people with his mind. Check.

  • In The Wheel of Time the main character can set entire continents on fire with his will. Actually, it takes an act of will on his part to not do that which is why there is a harem of hot bitches whose whole job is to keep him "relaxed" enough that he won't want to do that. Check.

  • In Master of the Five Magics the main character beats the greatest demon lord in combat because of his super magic powers. Check.


And so on. The real dinstinction I think for your standard fantasy novel is not that the main (player) characters aren't doing awesome shit - it's that the supporting cast of NPCs aren't.

Most fantasy novels are set up with a structure where the people in the world don't fly. The main characters still fly.

-Username17
RandomCasualty
Prince
Posts: 3506
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: What is it about "Low Magic?"

Post by RandomCasualty »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1186344837[/unixtime]]

The main characters of Fantasy Novels, or anyone else in Fantasy Novels?

Because last time I checked, main characters in fantasy novels do crazy shit like stop time and destroy cities with their anger. All the time. Even main characters in relatively low key settings like Game of Thrones take time out of their day to raise the dead and train dragon armies.


Well, yeah I should say "fantasy warriors", not all generic fantasy characters. Fantasy wizards tend to be like pretty crazy and in some cases over the top of what even RPGs like D&D give them in terms of power.

I mean really though, take almost any fantasy warrior, Conan, Fafred (however the hell you spell that), Aragorn, Legolas, Drizz't, Cyric, Caramon, or any number of other fantasy warrior or rogue types.

I mean, most of the Mary Sue style mage heroes don't fit in an RPG anyway as PCs, even in high magic settings.

Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: What is it about "Low Magic?"

Post by Username17 »

Random Casualty wrote:Well, yeah I should say "fantasy warriors", not all generic fantasy characters. Fantasy wizards tend to be like pretty crazy and in some cases over the top of what even RPGs like D&D give them in terms of power.


Now we're at the heart of the matter. What you want is not to represent stories from books, but to represent minor characters characters. Sword Catcher #8 and the like. And while I'm sure there's a place for it - I strongly suspect that its place is "2nd level".

I mean really though, take almost any fantasy warrior, Conan, Fafred (however the hell you spell that), Aragorn, Legolas, Drizz't, Cyric, Caramon, or any number of other fantasy warrior or rogue types.


You really need to get some different examples, because those examples are bullshit. Especially the Lord of the Rings examples, where Aragorn and Legolas very specifically are ancient sorcerer kings on top of being badasses in melee combat. But the Forgotten Realms guys have to go too. Hell, you do realize that Cyric ascends to Godhood, right?

What you're actually looking for is characters from Game of Thrones. Lots of them are people like Robb Stark are actually quite bad ass on the normal human scale, and yet find themselves completely unable to triumph over a dozen armed thugs while they are naked and drunk.

But you'll also remember that the entire book series takes place during a specific lull in the magic of the setting. There was a specific event that kept anyone from being magical or attaining high level and over the course of the series it is breking down. By the later books people actually are pulling fire out of the aether, viewing the future, and cutting through dozens of men with the inner ki.

---

What you seem to be after is an Arse Magica set up where the fighting men are structurally relegated to playing back-up oboe to the real characters (who all are magicians or have giant blood or something that makes them awesome).

And that's actually fine. But you can't simultaneously do that and still claim that the warriors are viable characters in the big scheme of things.

-Username17
Voss
Prince
Posts: 3912
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: What is it about "Low Magic?"

Post by Voss »

Bad examples aside (and what the hell is up with bringing 3 actual D&D characters into a low magic discussion) , there is such a thing as honest to goodness low magic fantasy where the non-casters aren't chumps.

Yes, its drowned out by the various Tolkienesque regurgitations that form that mass of the genre, but it can be done. Howard and Leiber aren't a bad starting place for that. Though I am amused by the fact that Tolkien's derivations ultimately lead to a place where normal folks are fodder and wizards (and what-have-you) are gods over all. He'd be nicely horrified by the concept.

Anyway, for workable low magic D&D, I think certain things have to be done.

- Work the kinks out of the feat system. At the moment, theres a lot wrong and lacking, but dialing them up RoW style won't fit a low magic setting.

- Break the spellcasters over your knee. Cast the big casters at roughly Adept level. Sucks, yes, but the 'breaking the universe' level of magic doesn't fit. Hybrid caster classes can just be flushed. They're pretty much an aberration limited to the D&D default setting anyway, and barely fit anything resembling myth, folktales or history.

- Ignore 80% of the critters in the various MMs. Personally, I don't have a problem with this, since so much of it is flavorless, goofy crap anyway. They've really outdone themselves on making eldritch horrors (aberrations) as boring as possible and I still don't know what all those dragonspawn things were about. Some things just aren't going to work without the uber spells and items of normal D&D.

- Toss magic items out the window. An artifact or other rare but powerful thing might work, but it can be hell on group dynamics. ('I want to use the magic sword!'). You could, I suppose, do a set of items, but that sort of thing traditionally comes in threes.

Mind you this sort of thing won't work for everyone. I'm not sure I'd do it myself. My own preference is to ditch the items (because we aren't playing fvcking pokemon), bump feats and noncasters and rip out some of the more game-breaking spells. Wishes as everyday things that are available by default is probably the most stupidly offensive thing I can think of. Let alone summoning something like an efreet, which is, by the rules, almost a non-effort.

Oh, and the current concept of the druid deserves nothing less than a painful death. Not only are they closer to fvcking hippies than historical druids, but something that can slaughter everybody in melee and be a full spellcaster simultaneously is just the pinnacle of bad playtesting.
Catharz
Knight-Baron
Posts: 893
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: What is it about "Low Magic?"

Post by Catharz »

Voss at [unixtime wrote:1186363539[/unixtime]]
- Work the kinks out of the feat system. At the moment, theres a lot wrong and lacking, but dialing them up RoW style won't fit a low magic setting.


What, because "low magic" means the same thing as "few abilities" or "small numbers"?
User avatar
Desdan_Mervolam
Knight-Baron
Posts: 985
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: What is it about "Low Magic?"

Post by Desdan_Mervolam »

RandomCasualty at [unixtime wrote:1186308458[/unixtime]]
Yeah, Aragorn's army was more of a plot device adventure rather than a class ability.


Seriously, what's that got to do withanything? He had an army. That army had to do what he said. It doesn't matter if he got it from a racial ability, a class ability, from oral sex with the GM or out of a frickin' Cracker Jack box. He has an army. It is made out of invincible undead warriors. If you can claim that is low magic by any means, you have offically lost touch with reality. Please go check into a mental ward.

-Desdan
Don't bother trying to impress gamers. They're too busy trying to impress you to care.
User avatar
Hey_I_Can_Chan
Master
Posts: 250
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Garden Grove, CA

Re: What is it about "Low Magic?"

Post by Hey_I_Can_Chan »

Off-topic
Frank wrote:…Arse Magica…

Why do I get the sense that that was both a typo and not a typo at the same time!?

Awesome.
RandomCasualty
Prince
Posts: 3506
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: What is it about "Low Magic?"

Post by RandomCasualty »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1186353568[/unixtime]]
You really need to get some different examples, because those examples are bullshit. Especially the Lord of the Rings examples, where Aragorn and Legolas very specifically are ancient sorcerer kings on top of being badasses in melee combat. But the Forgotten Realms guys have to go too. Hell, you do realize that Cyric ascends to Godhood, right?

Well, I'm talking about Cyric before he ascends. In the book he's a skilled rogue and a warrior, but he doesn't actually do anything superhuman, at all.

As far as Lord of the Rings, seriously Aragorn and Legolas don't do anything innately magical, at least not from what I could remember from the books and certainly there's nothing in the movies. Legolas does some cool stuff in the movies featuring his elven agility, but none of it involves him flying or casting spells.


What you're actually looking for is characters from Game of Thrones. Lots of them are people like Robb Stark are actually quite bad ass on the normal human scale, and yet find themselves completely unable to triumph over a dozen armed thugs while they are naked and drunk.

I've never really read game of Thrones so, honestly I can't say if that's what I mean or not.


What you seem to be after is an Arse Magica set up where the fighting men are structurally relegated to playing back-up oboe to the real characters (who all are magicians or have giant blood or something that makes them awesome).

Well no. Ars Magica says "Magicians rock and you guys get to back them up". I'm looking for a Conan setup where sword can triumph over sorcery without sword necessarily being superhuman.

I mean look at either of the Conan movies. Conan manages to kill wizards, a high priest and a god. All without doing anything remarkably superhuman. Yeah, he's strong and he's a good fighter, but he doesn't fly, he doesn't fire laser beams out of his ass, and he doesn't cast spells. Despite all that, he has a wizard who is a sidekick. And the wizard doesn't overshadow him, in fact, Conan is the star.

That's low magic in my opinion.

I think you're missing out on the basic concept. Really, it's the role of fighter types and the flavor of fighter types that makes low magic. In a low magic setting, fighters aren't superheroes, yet they're not overshadowed by mages.

This is quite difficult to do in D&D of course, but that's the basic set up of low magic.
shirak
Knight
Posts: 468
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Thessaloniki, Greece

Re: What is it about "Low Magic?"

Post by shirak »

RandomCasualty at [unixtime wrote:1186385675[/unixtime]]
Well no. Ars Magica says "Magicians rock and you guys get to back them up". I'm looking for a Conan setup where sword can triumph over sorcery without sword necessarily being superhuman.

I mean look at either of the Conan movies. Conan manages to kill wizards, a high priest and a god. All without doing anything remarkably superhuman. Yeah, he's strong and he's a good fighter, but he doesn't fly, he doesn't fire laser beams out of his ass, and he doesn't cast spells. Despite all that, he has a wizard who is a sidekick. And the wizard doesn't overshadow him, in fact, Conan is the star.

That's low magic in my opinion.

I think you're missing out on the basic concept. Really, it's the role of fighter types and the flavor of fighter types that makes low magic. In a low magic setting, fighters aren't superheroes, yet they're not overshadowed by mages.

This is quite difficult to do in D&D of course, but that's the basic set up of low magic.


I think you are looking for that rare game system called "DM Fiat". Conan is a guy who wins for three reasons:

  • He gets surprise/sets up an ambush/sneak attacks/whatever
  • The spellcaster decided to, say, shout his rage to the heavens while Conan beat the crap out of him instead of, you know, casting a spell.
  • Shit happens. I remember Talsa Doom casting a spell on Conan that would kill him if he wasn't protected by an Amulet of Proof Against Tals Doom's Magic (TM)! Which is stupid beyond words.


So, yeah, if you want Fighters to be the equals of Wizards because of contrived situations, feel free. You don't even have to change the system.
But if you want Fighters to be inherently awesome, you have to rethink the whole paradigm of combat. That is the problem.
User avatar
tzor
Prince
Posts: 4266
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: What is it about "Low Magic?"

Post by tzor »

In order to really have a low magic system you have to give up a lot of game mechanic assumptions. Once you do it's really easy for the fighter to shine.

I could be wrong here, as I am not an expert but I don't think in the Conan series wizards ever were casting powerful spells one every six seconds in rapid sucession.

I think an important part of low magic is the notion that magic is not some reusable feat you can pull out from your list of spells or from a large paid for supply of wands or scrolls but something that comes at a price.

Another way that low magic shines is when you move out of the notion of magic as replacement for modern weaponry and move into the old fashion use of vile magic ... curses. Leiber is famous for hordes of black wizards hired to cast curses at the enemy while the enemy employs hordes of vile black wizards to dispell the curses. I'm pretty sure the same is in the Conan series as well.

Moving magic out of the combat simulation mode and into the cursing mode as well as slowing down the more powerful spells puts the casters at a significant disadvantage. Note that slowing down the casters can be done by either physically making the spells take longer than the typical combat round or by producing a penalty that takes time to recover from so casting too fast could prove fatal.

Personally I think the Runequest Lankhmar varient might be the best potential low magic system I've seen so far, although since Lankhmar is the bastard child of the Runequest system I think it's going to die the same slow and painful death the AD&D Lankhmar scenario did.
bitnine
Journeyman
Posts: 129
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: What is it about "Low Magic?"

Post by bitnine »

Manxome at [unixtime wrote:1186338032[/unixtime]]His kingdom has legends about the extraordinary healing powers of the king and he secretly enters Minas Tirith to run around and heal a bunch of people so injured from combat that they're beyond the skill of professional physicians (that part got cut out of the movies, of course). I'd call that pretty awesome healing.
Yeah... I was going to write a long story about a character who passes through a forest evading orcs doing nothing but casting spells from Pass Without Trace to Detect Poison to Delay Poison to Calm Animals to Cure Light Wounds to Commune With Nature. Then eventually meeting a dryad ranger who hands him with a Foebane sword to use against the orcs, who in their desperation have started to set the forest ablaze. Then, going back to the orcs, using spells from Longstrider to Bear's Strength to Protection from Energy.

Only, you know, in all low magic thematics so that from the ambiguous OOG descriptions I could argue at length and vehemently that there's no magic happening there at all. Lots of mentions of herbs and legends and skill and the lady of the forest and a dull sword drawn from a spring in the wood's heart.

So can we just sorta pretend I did that? Because I like the point, but all that writing seems like more work than I'm prepared to do. I do like the dissonance, though. "(Yeah, he just cast Delay Poison.) No, I told you - there is no magic used in this story! Didn't you read about the herbs?!"

Anyways, there are distinct yet connected issues with "low magic" thematics as opposed to mechanics and logistics.
User avatar
JonSetanta
King
Posts: 5525
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: interbutts

Re: What is it about "Low Magic?"

Post by JonSetanta »

shirak at [unixtime wrote:1186326019[/unixtime]]Sigma999: I've glanced through your system. My impressions so far.

  • Way too much randomness. What is it with all those 5d6 rolls?
  • Needlessly complex rules. Who cares what happens to Sprites? One of them awakening is a plot hook, all the players need to know is "Yay, a Sprite awoke, we need to protect the new guy from those Unseelie bastards!" Keep It Simple, Stupid!
  • Your Fey Feats are really weird. One of them, Noble, is Leadership plus candy. The spell-like ones suck. You need to invest 6 of your feats to get Teleport? Sure, you get a lot of bonus feats (11 in 10 levels) but still, this sucks. Go read the Tome of Fiends.
  • In Elements of nature, Fire is sucky beyond belief. I mean, you compare Earthglide and Fly 100' with 1d4 damage? WTF?!
  • Btw, you never seem to lose Globe of Light so you already have an incorporeal form with 100' perfect flight speed. Yeah, good luck with that.


In short, this needs serious reworking.


OK! Points noted. I was thinking similarly for about half of those, especially about the Elements.

5d6 rolls (example) are a for the high, low, and average value. Rather than a d20+number, I wanted a different range. For different ranges, different dice and amounts are used... guess it's a throwback to AD&D, but yes there isn't much of that in 3.5e.

Sprite/Fey ecology is important to some people, not so much for others; it's a Fey ecosystem, and they are both food at the bottom and become more advanced Fey o_O. They become anything, Seelie or Unseelie. I'll simplify it, but all that stuff about 'awakening' will probably stay, maybe a subsection tho. And no more writing at 4 AM, like that whole section (in 2 days!)
Maybe an abbreviated section for players, and the more varied background stuff sectioned for DMs.

Tome of Fiends wasn't my measure for balance. I'm a fan of Frank and K, but not everything should compare to their Tome series. Heh.. yes the spell feats do suck, but they fulfill utility roles rather than combat. If they are accepted well by more people I'll throw in more offensive and buff versions, but this is a start, and 'weak' is good for now.
Remember that not everyone has been exposed to FnK, so they must be dipped into high-powered d20 not dunked! :biggrin:

Think I should standardize the Fey feat trees? Limit, say, 5? With more spells and small bonuses with each feat?

BTW those Sprites do lose Globe of Light eventually, if criteria are met. For one, if the Fey advances to more than 3 HD, and secondly if they lose Sprite subtype, but I'm adjusting the .DOC to add more on that subject before reposting anywhere. Maybe it's not clear enough hmmm that will be one thing to take care of first, before feats..
Don't want to take up any more space in this thread (hijacking) and I'd prefer more comments on either the Wizards.com thread or the Feybook forum, but maybe I'll post a more or less complete copy here since the responses are both much more insightful and caustic >_<
The Adventurer's Almanac wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pm
Nobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.
Voss
Prince
Posts: 3912
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: What is it about "Low Magic?"

Post by Voss »

Catharz at [unixtime wrote:1186370858[/unixtime]]
Voss at [unixtime wrote:1186363539[/unixtime]]
- Work the kinks out of the feat system. At the moment, theres a lot wrong and lacking, but dialing them up RoW style won't fit a low magic setting.


What, because "low magic" means the same thing as "few abilities" or "small numbers"?


Nope. Its just that the RoW stuff strikes me as written to compete with the spellcasting classes as they are. (Or at least not suck so hard as the spellcasters break the game).

If magic is getting toned down (hence, the whole 'low magic' thing), and you're applying it to the creatures you throw at the party as well, there isn't the need to put the noncasters at the Hercules level.

That said, I'd still change a lot in the feat system. Have them scale to some degree (like the RoW feats), but not to the point that you get Tremorsense out of the Blindfighting feat. More along the lines of changing weapon focus (for example), so that it grows to give you weapon specialization, and the greater version of both as you level. Though probably with bigger bonuses, so that a fighter can actually take on CR appropriate stuff, like say, a frost giant.
Captain_Bleach
Knight-Baron
Posts: 830
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: What is it about "Low Magic?"

Post by Captain_Bleach »

Voss at [unixtime wrote:1186423847[/unixtime]]
Catharz at [unixtime wrote:1186370858[/unixtime]]
Voss at [unixtime wrote:1186363539[/unixtime]]
- Work the kinks out of the feat system. At the moment, theres a lot wrong and lacking, but dialing them up RoW style won't fit a low magic setting.


What, because "low magic" means the same thing as "few abilities" or "small numbers"?


Nope. Its just that the RoW stuff strikes me as written to compete with the spellcasting classes as they are. (Or at least not suck so hard as the spellcasters break the game).

If magic is getting toned down (hence, the whole 'low magic' thing), and you're applying it to the creatures you throw at the party as well, there isn't the need to put the noncasters at the Hercules level.

That said, I'd still change a lot in the feat system. Have them scale to some degree (like the RoW feats), but not to the point that you get Tremorsense out of the Blindfighting feat. More along the lines of changing weapon focus (for example), so that it grows to give you weapon specialization, and the greater version of both as you level. Though probably with bigger bonuses, so that a fighter can actually take on CR appropriate stuff, like say, a frost giant.


So, if you want to make a "Magic comes at a price" theme, then you would have to revamp a significant portion of monsters in the Monster Manual, except for Dragons, who are bad-ass enough as they are without spells.
Voss
Prince
Posts: 3912
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: What is it about "Low Magic?"

Post by Voss »

Well... yes and no. You could revamp them, but a lot of things (aberrations and outsiders, in particular) just aren't going to be showing up that often. The 'magic at a price' thing really should cut down on the number of things summoned, or weird critters that wizards are experimenting on for no apparent reason. These things still have a place, of course, but they're going to be major encounters rather than part of the random deluge of things showing up to be killed by the 'heroes'
Captain_Bleach
Knight-Baron
Posts: 830
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: What is it about "Low Magic?"

Post by Captain_Bleach »

So Aberrations, Freaks of Magic, summonable creatures, etc. will not be in random encounters. Rather, creatures that are fairly non-magical and/or "natural" will be in said encounters.

I like it.

Seriously, having demons show up in random encounters should only be done in the Abyss or places tainted with Chaos and Evil.
RandomCasualty
Prince
Posts: 3506
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: What is it about "Low Magic?"

Post by RandomCasualty »

shirak at [unixtime wrote:1186402348[/unixtime]]
But if you want Fighters to be inherently awesome, you have to rethink the whole paradigm of combat. That is the problem.


You have to rethink the whole paradigm of magic, not combat.

The basic combat style works fine. You take a sword and stick it in some guy and he dies.

The main problem is the D&D magic paradigm, which has three parts:

-the best (and sometimes only) counter to magic is other magic.
-magic counters swords.
-Nothing counters magic.

That's the problem.
TavishArtair
Knight-Baron
Posts: 593
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: What is it about "Low Magic?"

Post by TavishArtair »

On the subject of King Arthur, while Excalibur was an imperishably sharp blade, with the aforementioned "that's really shiny" quality, there's also another consistent story element.

He has a mystic scabbard. It's not a scabbard of sharpening, oh no.

When he wears it, he doesn't bleed. This actually becomes a minor point in a story, where he notices he doesn't have his scabbard and his opponent does, because he is the one who is bleeding and not the other way around. Considering most wounds at the time were fatal due to bleeding out...

Elsewhere in the stories, Merlin is a half-demon, half-angel, or half-fairy, depending on how you spin it, and Lancelot was raised by fairies. Fairies! Gawain has legendary strength that rises with the sun.

It certainly is "low" magic, but almost all of the major characters generally have some sort of quality that sets them apart, and as has been said, makes them heroic, even if it is "merely" being so pure of heart that you triumph with ease at everything and can find the Holy Grail.

A system that wanted to capture these kinds of heroic characters, in my mind, would need to address the fact that these heroes often had one or two Extremely Awesome qualities and were merely par excellence for the rest.
User avatar
JonSetanta
King
Posts: 5525
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: interbutts

Re: What is it about "Low Magic?"

Post by JonSetanta »

TavishArtair at [unixtime wrote:1186465480[/unixtime]]
Elsewhere in the stories, Merlin is a half-demon, half-angel, or half-fairy, depending on how you spin it, and Lancelot was raised by fairies. Fairies! Gawain has legendary strength that rises with the sun.


Pssssh maybe misconception about exactly what a 'fairy' is. Is one imagining dinky lil Pixies fluttering in the brush, or gracefully cultured Sidhe the masters of illusion and swordplay.

To imply 'half-demon' is that Merlin was damned tough, wicked cool powers, and maybe his pagan-ness is due to all that fiendblood (crosses burn his flesh, w/e), or if he is 'half-fairy' he's not that much different from, say, being a half-elf? And we all know what's wrong with half-elf...

In Arthurian tales I'd say the whole damned thing is definitely not low-magic. There's too many weird things happening to be mundane, yet the common peasants sure arent wiping their Arse Magikas with Scrolls of Limited Wish so it's not quite high-magic either.
The Adventurer's Almanac wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pm
Nobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.
bitnine
Journeyman
Posts: 129
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: What is it about "Low Magic?"

Post by bitnine »

sigma999 at [unixtime wrote:1186497332[/unixtime]]In Arthurian tales I'd say the whole damned thing is definitely not low-magic.
Well, part of that is going to be influenced by how very inconsistently the term "low magic" is used.

There are at least three axes that people use interchangeably when talking about low vs. high magic, as well as two random other things:

Subtle vs. flashy. Most stories do not have the clear demarcation of action classification that games tend to necessitate, so from an in-character perspective there can be a real question of if magic is being used at all. Is it a natural occurrence, an affinity for nature, fate, passion, or some sort of magic? In a story, you probably can't tell. In game, the guy next to you looks up the spell he's using. Many people believe that the mechanical construction of such game actions dictate the in-game representation than is true at all. However, some effects can be intrinsically spectacular and tend to defy a subtle representation.

Level of impact on the world. If a world is shaped by and lives and breathes magic, is it "low magic", even if that magic is subtle to the point of having a questionable existence? This is an area of particular inconsistency, since while most everyone tends to agree that being subtle is a hallmark of low magic, assertions about the level scarcity and impact that "low magic" mandates vary. Sometimes this pushes to the point of logical inconsistency where a setting refuses to include the clear consequences of the the magic contained therein.

Power. Myself, I would tend to think that the two above combine sufficiently to override power as a distinct concern. However, many folk look toward this as a separate issue when considering something as "low magic" or not. Is there really an aspect of magic that is unique to a certain level of power that is not already reflected in its level of impact and flashiness? Does capping spell levels really mean anything in regard to making a setting more low magic? Higher level spells do tend to have greater impact and can be very flashy indeed, but not exclusively or uniquely so.

Special. Wanting magic to "feel special" or keeping magic away from players look like things you want out of a setting, not out of the whole category of "low magic." Still, these end results are often referenced as metrics for judging a perspective low magic setting, or if the setting is "done right." And, as a cynical nod, to some DMs low magic certainly means that the PCs can't buck railroading with troublesome abilities.

Dependency. Some folk say that a system or setting can't be low magic if it requires magic for its normal balanced functioning. This makes a certain amount of sense. If you've decided that a low magic setting means that magic must be scarce and subtle, elements that require magic are best to be excluded. I do think that some of this goes further than that, to the idea and conception of anything dictating, expecting, or requiring the presence of magic to be a violation.

Go ahead and run some thought exercises, like the following:

In the world of Rethel, there perhaps exists only one form of magic. The culture believes in a ritual known as fatebinding, in which one takes their own life and makes a final wish. So long as no living being knows the contents of this wish, events inexorably conspire to fill this wish in some sense, in such a subtle fashion it will likely never to be known as magic. The world of Rethel has its history and setting awash in the impact of fatebinders, a rare few wishes known after the fact forming the base of the religion of the setting. Still, some disbelievers claim otherwise.

So... can a setting where commoners can cast wish and everyone knows about it possibly be low magic? This might plot well into the subtle region, but power and impact veer in the opposite direction.

Or just take D&D and cap it to first level spells and a caster level of 1. Also people feel like they just got kicked in the sack after casting any spell. Still, magic missile is common parlance. Magic sucks now, but is this low magic?

Maybe take D&D and have everyone roll five dice when making a character/being born. No magic exists in the world except for the guys who roll 5 1s automatically gain a level of wizard every year of their life. How big do those dice need to be to make this setting low magic?

Then my favorite, take a session with a ranger and assassin written in game mechanic terms. Turn that into two stories, one where you explicitly mention things like longstrider, delay poison, darkvision, locate creature, and feather fall. In the other, without contradicting the mandated mechanical effect of those actions, make no such mentions. Do either of these stories take place in a low magic setting? If the latter does not, how would you know from reading it alone?
User avatar
tzor
Prince
Posts: 4266
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: What is it about "Low Magic?"

Post by tzor »

sigma999 at [unixtime wrote:1186497332[/unixtime]]In Arthurian tales I'd say the whole damned thing is definitely not low-magic.


Arthurian tales are somewhat mythic. They are also narrwoly focused on those myths. Excalibur (along with scabbard) is extreemely powerful but it's more or less unique. The Knights of the Round Table do tend to be rather unique in their own ways, but they also tend to be a league of extraordinary gentlmen (gathered from all over the land) and not the norm for people in general. There isn't a Merlin in every village.

Looking at the Arthurian tales and talking about King Arthur is a whole lot like looking at FR and talking about Elminster, or Leiber's Nehwon and looking only at Shellba and Nignubale.

Low or high magic has to deal with everyman. From the ordinary servant to the common hero. Because, odd are, you not playing Elminster, or Arthur, or even good old Ning.
User avatar
JonSetanta
King
Posts: 5525
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: interbutts

Re: What is it about "Low Magic?"

Post by JonSetanta »

So it's quantity over quality of the people using and having access to magic.
However the amount of magic has yet to be defined. Like bitnine's sarcasm, what makes the magic as Maggickkk or w/e you want to call it... a Wish cast by peasants or a L1 spellcaster cap. I'd say there should be no difference, if a character can cause any abnormal change in reality outside of what muscle and sweat could achieve, it's magic.

Sweat would include technology, Arthur C Clarke disregarded. Yes we should all know his famous line, I won't repeat it here..
Enough technology accomplishes seemingly magical deeds, but I refuse to accept that a spellcaster gesticulating and screaming syllables garnished from the previous universe counts as some form of technology.
Magic as an art form, and we all know art is an unnatural blasphemous abomination, an anathema to science. Van Gogh. Michael the gorilla. World of Warcraft. cmon...

I have yet to see substantial, empyrical proof of magic in this waking world, in which I sit here and breath and type about fantastical subjects. However I truly
hope it is possible and have strived for years to achieve some degree of supposedly 'psychic' ability.
I believe I've awakend some form of limited precognition since around age 12-13, but has yet to become reliable (or as the person with such an 'ability', have yet to become stable enough to do so myself) to perform and prove as founding fact that yes, indeed, 'magic' IS REAL.

So, in an RPG where such situations could actually produce visible, tangible results, as if my years of meditation and kundalini practices could manifest a blobby astral piece of crap in my living room created as a Psionic PC, I'd say evidence of magic would be undeniable. And if anyone could even have the possibility to do THAT with 12 years of introspection, reading, and effort, well... that's fucking high magic dude.
The Adventurer's Almanac wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pm
Nobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.
Jacob_Orlove
Knight
Posts: 456
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: What is it about "Low Magic?"

Post by Jacob_Orlove »

TavishArtair at [unixtime wrote:1186465480[/unixtime]]
A system that wanted to capture these kinds of heroic characters, in my mind, would need to address the fact that these heroes often had one or two Extremely Awesome qualities and were merely par excellence for the rest.

sigma999 at [unixtime wrote:1186497332[/unixtime]]
In Arthurian tales I'd say the whole damned thing is definitely not low-magic. There's too many weird things happening to be mundane, yet the common peasants sure arent wiping their Arse Magikas with Scrolls of Limited Wish so it's not quite high-magic either.


It sounds like these characters would best be modeled as Superheroes, not D&D Heroes. They each have one really unique power (or a few, related ones), but are otherwise close to normal.

Also, while some of them get their powers from a magic item (Arthur, Green Lantern), others got hit with radiation or whatever (Achilles, Hulk), still others are just born awesome (Merlin, Superman), and some are just super smart and well-rounded (Odysseus, Batman). The mechanics are not tied to the flavor, essentially.
shirak
Knight
Posts: 468
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: Thessaloniki, Greece

Re: What is it about "Low Magic?"

Post by shirak »

RandomCasualty at [unixtime wrote:1186456190[/unixtime]]
shirak at [unixtime wrote:1186402348[/unixtime]]
But if you want Fighters to be inherently awesome, you have to rethink the whole paradigm of combat. That is the problem.


You have to rethink the whole paradigm of magic, not combat.

The basic combat style works fine. You take a sword and stick it in some guy and he dies.

The main problem is the D&D magic paradigm, which has three parts:

-the best (and sometimes only) counter to magic is other magic.
-magic counters swords.
-Nothing counters magic.

That's the problem.


Nope. The problem is that D&D combat is conceived the same way as Conan's combats were conceived. So the swordguy is supposed to wave his stick around and dodge blows and in general have lots of pages of description while the mage waves his hand and people die. See above as to why this works in Conan.

The thing is, this can't work in D&D. Fighters play a game of Resource Depletion while the casters play Rocket Launcher Tag. There are basically three ways out of this:

1) Nerf magic.

You either make magic the equivalent of wielding a sword or make it an addition to swordplay (ie no SoDs and stuff, only buff/healing/whatever magic)

2) Buff Swordplay

If you give fighters the equivalent of SoDs, area attacks, buff spells, healing and a serious role outside of combat you get something that looks like a Wizard, sounds like a Wizard but is not, in fact, a Wizard.

3) Hide the problem

If the only Wizards are NPCs and the PCs never really need them (ie no Swarms etc) than you might as well keep things as they are. Fighters still need to be buffed to the point of monsters but whatever.

So, really, the problem is much more generic than "Fix magic". You have to actually decide what magic is supposed to do and what swordplay is supposed to do and how the two interact within the rules.
Post Reply