[D&D 3.5] The Unconventional Wisdom of the Den

[PhaedrusXY]

I only don't like ability spam if there are no other valid options. If spamming is just an option and I can reasonably do other things then everything is fine.

And a firemage has more options than a psion?

[...You Lost Me]

I'd guess it's because the Fire Mage's at-will abilities are weaker than a relevant-level power or spell or whatever.

[Psychic Robot]

psionics are p. cool fuck the haters

[Josh_Kablack]

And a firemage has more options than a psion?

Level 1 firemage options Throw firebolt dealing 1d6+1 / lve out to short range as a touch attack, or deal 1d6+lvl fire in 10' radius centered on self. (targets get ref for half) Also use axe, scimitar or crossbow.

Additional Level 2 options: Set a target within medium range on fire for 1d6+level damage over time. They get no initial save but can extinguish with the usual rules

Additional Level 3 options: Drizzt clone unlocked. Add +1d6+lvl fire damage to each melee attack (and cut through fire resistance). 1d6+3 is only half a point behind the +2d6 sneak attack the rogue is dealing, and you don't have to flank or bluff or win initiative or be fighting non-undead non-ooze non-construct.....

Additonal level 4 options: uh, you get light at will....nevermind

Additional level 5 options: Long Range AoE fireball

Additional level 6 options: Rage or Confusion.


What's the Psion get at those levels?

[A Man In Black]

psionics are p. cool fuck the haters

I mean, if you complain for 30 minutes about the firemage, then I might believe your hatred of Psionics for it's focus on spamming best ability is anything but hypocrisy.

I'm not that fond of the firemage in principle, although I haven't taken a close look at it.

Also, there's the clusterfuck of other problems the psion has.

[Grek]

Level 1 Psion chooses three of the following:
-Chase someone around with a magic candle-sized fire that lights them on fire.
-Make the enemy loose their actions via various powers.
-Make everyone within 30' of you shaken
-Entangle a guy out to close range.
-Cast grease, except psionically.
-Do 1d10 damage per power point spend, will negates.
-Get 5 temporary hit points.
-Sicken someone, no save.
-Cast Charm Person, except psionically.
-Cast Minor Creation, except psionically.
-Create an Astral Construct, which is sort of like summoning a monster.
-And much much more!

At Level 2, you pick two more powers off that list, or some utility stuff.


Level 3 gets you access to two the following, in addition to whatever you got before:
-Do the "chase people around with a magic candle flame" trick with a torch.
-Walking on water.
-1d4 Cha damage + daze, will save for half and no daze.
-Give yourself concealment that your DM probably wouldn't let you hide in.
-Identify Psi items.
-Heal the party by hurting your temp HP from vigor.
-Fireball some dues.
-Swap two allies positions.
-Do stonetell on any obeject.
-Daze someone for as long as you concentrate.
-Cast Suggestion, except psionically.
-Read people's thoughts.
-And much much more!

Level 4 means two more powers off the level 3 list. Go hog wild.

Level 5 gives you access to two of these powers:
-Do the "chase people around with a magic candle flame" trick with a campfire.
-Heal yourself for 1d12.
-Fireball people with a damage type of your choice.
-Firewall places with a damage type of your choice.
-Stun everyone in a 30' blast.
-Cast Telekinesis, except psionically.
-Give yourself an extra move action.
-Turn insunstancial, gain DR 10/psionics and fly at 20' all without loosing your ability to cast spells.
-Do Cone of Cold (if you're a noob)
-Go to the Astral Plane with you and all your friends.
-Make someone helpless, reflex negates.
-And much much more!

Level 6, unsuprisingly, gets you two more of the level 5 list of powers.

[...You Lost Me]

I found Grek's post entertaining. However, I believe the counterargument is going to be "But Psions only get pick a couple of those" or they'll go off track with another argument like "IT USES PP NOT AT WILL (LOL U R BUTTHURT)".

So in answer to the first: You get two schticks at first level. Like the firemage. You get more than the firemage as time goes on.

In answer to the second: Fuck off.

[K]

Level 1 Psion chooses three of the following:
-Chase someone around with a magic candle-sized fire that lights them on fire.
-Make the enemy loose their actions via various powers.
-Make everyone within 30' of you shaken
-Entangle a guy out to close range.
-Cast grease, except psionically.
-Do 1d10 damage per power point spend, will negates.
-Get 5 temporary hit points.
-Sicken someone, no save.
-Cast Charm Person, except psionically.
-Cast Minor Creation, except psionically.
-Create an Astral Construct, which is sort of like summoning a monster.
-And much much more!

Actually, a psion isn't getting access to all those things. A lot of them are mutually exclusive to one discipline list and not on the Psion/Wilder list. The Psion/Wilder list is basically ass, so Wilders basically are ass-casters and Psions are a little better because they get access to one Discipline list with a few good powers.

You could get access to the good Discipline powers at higher levels with Expanded Knowledge feat, but it will happen infrequently considering the number of feats that are "must haves."

[Ice9]

Yes, I can see how only selecting a larger number of powers off a list which is merely about 5x bigger is clearly worse versatility than the Fire Mage.
Also, since the Psion is less strong than a Wizard, we should ban it. And I guess we should ban the majority of the core classes as well, and even many of the Tome ones.

ITT: People claiming that since psionics does not fix all of D&D's problems, it's the worst thing ever.

[Grek]

Actually, a psion isn't getting access to all those things.

True enough. You don't get to pick ANY three on the list, as there are some restrictions. But you do get three, and three things is more than two things. And at level 2, you have five things, which is more than three. And it keeps going from there.

[Kaelik]

Speaking of Fire Mages, to actually get on track in this thread, unconventional Den Wisdom includes not whining about abilities at will.

[K]

Actually, a psion isn't getting access to all those things.

True enough. You don't get to pick ANY three on the list, as there are some restrictions. But you do get three, and three things is more than two things. And at level 2, you have five things, which is more than three. And it keeps going from there.

I can only find one power on the 1st level Psion/Wilder list that's any good and lots of Disciplines have no good powers, so even with your greater number of choices it's pretty meaningless. The 2nd level list is not much better and it only perks up a little past the 3rd level list.

Psionic characters are basically stuck with 1-2 decent powers at a time, then a bunch of powers that are not worth the points to activate. It's not surprising that they spam one power over and over based on their choices.

[Grek]

Control Flames, Psionic Daze, Deja Vu, Demoralize, Energy Ray, Entangling Ectoplasm, Hammer, Mind Thrust, and Vigor are all things that are at least as valid to do as the Fire Mage's 1d6+level fire attacks.

[Ice9]

Going up to 2nd level, Energy Stun, Forced Sense Link*, Concealing Amorpha*, Ego Whip (at higher levels), Mental Disruption, Detect Hostile Intent*, and most of the specialist powers are good. And for that matter, even stuff like Energy Push or Swarm of Crystals is as interesting as what the Fire Mage is doing.

Note - Powers with a * do not need to be fucking augmented to be good. Seriously, a big chunk of the powers fall into this category, so quit lying about it.

[K]

Control Flames, Psionic Daze, Deja Vu, Demoralize, Energy Ray, Entangling Ectoplasm, Hammer, Mind Thrust, and Vigor are all things that are at least as valid to do as the Fire Mage's 1d6+level fire attacks.

Those are all pretty shitty. The one effect that I'd rate as good isn't even on that list.

Take Mind Thrust, for example: 1d10 per point spent sounds pretty good until you realize it's a Will save to negate single target effect that can't be Chained. You end up burning lots of points and might not even do damage.

Running around and being kind of ok twice a day for most of your career is less valuable than having decent things to do every combat round of every combat that day. At 15+ when you get enough points to be able to toss off a properly augmented version every round of every combat, you've been doing more interesting effects for ten levels.

I could go through the rest of the list, but I don't see the point. Anyone who thinks Demoralize is a good effect obviously can't be reasoned with.

[Grek]

Running around and being kind of ok twice a day for most of your career is less valuable than having decent things to do every combat round of every combat that day.

This is true. It is also unrelated to the question. The question was "Which is more versatile, a Fire Mage, or a Psion?" and the Psion wins the versatility contest hands down. The fact that Psions are shit in almost all other aspects does not negate the fact that they're better in the thing that was specifically being asked about.

[RadiantPhoenix]

I think Grek might be confusing versatility and variety.

[Grek]

I'm not. The only problems a Fire Mage can solve at level 1 using his powers are problems that can be solved by burning the problem to ash with fire. They basically have no useful input for social situations, non-flamable obstacles, investigations of any kind or stealth missions. The Psion is able to pick powers that will give them something (even something sub par) to do in this situations.

[RadiantPhoenix]

I'm not. The only problems a Fire Mage can solve at level 1 using his powers are problems that can be solved by burning the problem to ash with fire. They basically have no useful input for social situations, non-flamable obstacles, investigations of any kind or stealth missions. The Psion is able to pick powers that will give them something (even something sub par) to do in this situations.

Class Skills (4 + Int modifier per level, ×4 at 1st level)
Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis) Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Use Rope (Dex).

Because at low levels skills can actually do stuff.

[Koumei]

Speaking of Fire Mages, to actually get on track in this thread, unconventional Den Wisdom includes not whining about abilities at will.

True. Oh, the old "WTF? AT WILL? BAN WARLOCK" threads on the WotC boards truly warmed my heart.

[Josh_Kablack]

Honesty, I'm on the verge of declaring that anything that works on any scheme other than "at-will" is not worth the added complexity in any TTRPG evar.

And by that rubric, Psions are at least as big a fail as wizards, barbarians, paladins and warblades.

[Maxus]

Speaking of Fire Mages, to actually get on track in this thread, unconventional Den Wisdom includes not whining about abilities at will.

True. Oh, the old "WTF? AT WILL? BAN WARLOCK" threads on the WotC boards truly warmed my heart.

I keep seeing it in the response on the D&D Wikis--well, more the old wiki. One guy flipped out because of the Thief-Acrobat's skill-based abilities.

Personally, I like weird at-will abilities. Progenitor of the Gith is one of my favorite tome classes because it gets all its abilities at-will (except for Plane Shift. And, seriously, that's "Opportunity to send someone to Hell twice a day" so I'm not complaining). It's interesting for a character to never have to get up to get something ever again when he can mage-hand or telekinesis it to him. Dimension Door at will is likewise cool.

The one thing I like about the SRD Paladin is Detect Evil at-will.

[K]

Running around and being kind of ok twice a day for most of your career is less valuable than having decent things to do every combat round of every combat that day.

This is true. It is also unrelated to the question. The question was "Which is more versatile, a Fire Mage, or a Psion?" and the Psion wins the versatility contest hands down. The fact that Psions are shit in almost all other aspects does not negate the fact that they're better in the thing that was specifically being asked about.

Actually, it's completely related.

You see, the things the Psion does are mostly ass. Getting five powers where four are ass is effectively one option. (The fact that you are doing that one option twice a day is also relevant to versatility, but in a different way that I won't bother to explain.)

I mean, you can pretend that you are solving real game problems with Control Light, but no one is buying that.

[Kaelik]

Um... you guys are fucking stupid.

1) Psion can use their best power 4 times a day exactly like a Wizard at level 1, then 5 times at level 2, then 6 times, then 7, then 8 at level 5. I'm sure it stops scaling at some point, but I'm tired of flipping back between two pages on the SRD and doing math.

2) The Firemages abilities at level 5 are:
1) a 10ft burst of 1d6 fire damage around him (which he will never use for the same reason that no one Psion will ever use Mind Blast at 1PP at level 5)
2) Throw Firebolts for 5d6+5 damage, or more if TWFing or whatever is allowed.
3) Light a target on fire for 1d6+5 damage. See how no Firemage will ever use this when they can Firebolt, unless the opponent has a touch AC off the RNG.
4) A Fire Mage is on Fire, and can make a non touch attack with his fist for 1d4+Str damage and 1d6+5 fire damage. Or you know, Firebolt, which he will do instead.
5) Create Light.
6) Fireball an area.

So, what a Firemage actually does at level 5 is:
1) Throw Firebolts
2) Fireball

That's fucking it. By the same logic we define away Psion options, because they suck, we also define away all the completely meaningless shit the Firemage does until he actually just has "single target touch attack for possibly more damage" and "save for half AoE" and nothing fucking else.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Firebolt has short range, while 'set on fire' has Medium range. So, there's that.

Also, Fireball is a full-round action, and it can hurt the Fire Mage, while Fire Burst is a Standard action and cannot. I'll admit that Fire Burst is of sharply limited utility compared to Fireball, but having played an actual game with a Fire Mage, there were times it came up.