Miasma isn't really THAT broken.

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Lago_AM3P
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Miasma isn't really THAT broken.

Post by Lago_AM3P »

It's very powerful, I admit, but I'm going to hold the phone on it being broken.

I'd be perfectly okay with the spell, in fact, if it didn't automatically prevent 7th-10th level wizards from actually doing anything. But as far as no-chance death traps go, I'm finding it actually really inferior to a wizard tricking the party into falling into a pool of organic acid created by minor creation or fabricate, as that will have a very good chance of initiating a TPK even for people of that level. 10d6 worth of damage a round--even with protection from elements, I really hope that the wizard in your party flies. And the cost for that is actually less than a druid changing into a hawk dragging his ass to find the party and dish with a fairly unreliable chance of killing anyone.

Yet people don't complain acid pit traps are broken.

Am I missing something here?
Lago_AM3P
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Re: Miasma isn't really THAT broken.

Post by Lago_AM3P »

This is changing the subject, but, seriously, if a wizard has a acid trap pit planned for the party, does a 7th-10th level party without their wizard flying really stand a chance if all of the members fall in?

I can't think of anything that will pull their fat out of the fryer, but the DMG suggests that this is actually a common trap. Is this why rogues rule?
MrWaeseL
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Re: Miasma isn't really THAT broken.

Post by MrWaeseL »

I agree with the Miasma part. It takes way to long, and saying it will kill somoeone over time if your un away

a: is not worth as much xp in my book,
b: causes the plot to dispel hit for him
c: makes me think why diseasing someone and then running away isn't broken, because you assume with miasma he can't get rid of it, and a permanent disease is quite nasty.
RandomCasualty
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Re: Miasma isn't really THAT broken.

Post by RandomCasualty »

An acid pit trap gives you a reflex save. At worst its a save or die. Miasma doesn't let you save, it's just a "die" spell.

Sure, it can be dispelled, but so what? Many creatures don't have access to dispelling, so this makes this spell an automatic kill on anything without an ally with dispel. And that's the majority of monsters in the MM. Even a beholder can't point its antimagic cone inward to save itself.

So basically the only ones able to survive this are undead, elementals, oozes and targets able to cast dispel.

And casting it in combat isnt' as though it sucks. It does in fact cripple mages, and does this without a save.

In my book anything that does more than straight damage without a save should seriously be looked at, because 9 times out of 10 it's gonna be broken.
User3
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Re: Miasma isn't really THAT broken.

Post by User3 »

Lago_AM3P at [unixtime wrote:1082964895[/unixtime]]...a wizard tricking the party into falling into a pool of organic acid created by minor creation or fabricate, as that will have a very good chance of initiating a TPK even for people of that level. 10d6 worth of damage a round--even with protection from elements, I really hope that the wizard in your party flies.

Yet people don't complain acid pit traps are broken.
...
How exactly are you "tricking" a party into falling into a pool of organic acid?

First, don't you have to find a recess in the ground that will perfectly hold the created/fabricated acid pool. Then make sure that once you "trick" the party into it, that it completely sumerges them or prevents or makes difficult exiting from such a pool?

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Essence
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Re: Miasma isn't really THAT broken.

Post by Essence »

The problem is that the "fairly unreliable chance" you mention...isn't. A 13th level Druid can Chain Miasma the entire party, preventing anyone who doesn't have a Silenced Greater Dispelling from saving anyone -- and that that caster can only attempt to save one person.
The_Hanged_Man
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Re: Miasma isn't really THAT broken.

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

You could try an area dispel, and hope that you dispel the miasma instead of something cool.
Username17
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Re: Miasma isn't really THAT broken.

Post by Username17 »

This has been gone over many times, but:

1. Any form of shape change essentially nullifies Miasma. It prevents you from breathing through your throat, but creatures which breathe in other ways (such as fish, giant ants, or plants) are completely immune.

2. It doesn't prevent you from breathing directly through your chest - anyone should be able to barely save such a character long enough to get them to magical healing with a DC 25 healing check and a sharp knife. I could do it, so I don't have any difficulty at all believing that a magically powered super heroic field medic could do it.

3. There are a number of magical items which flat make you immune (example: anything that keeps you from breathing).

4. There are a number of spells which flat make you immune (example, even one point of healing keeps you from dying on the second to last round - so those stupid rapid healing spells will keep you alive).

But if the 12th level party faces the 13th level Druid villain with a chain miasma, and the 13th level Druid successfully gets the spell off - then the party can jolly well run in and stab the villain to death because this 7th level spell just did no damage to anyone in the party. Then, at the end of the battle, the Druid can Wildshape into a Phantom Fungus and then start ladeling on the Dispel Magics.

Or the 12th level Cleric can pry open everyone like a pez dispencer, confident in the knowledge that they are going to take longer than 7 minutes to die from that - at the end of which everyone can be put back together with frickin healing potions.

It's really no big deal.

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Crissa
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Re: Miasma isn't really THAT broken.

Post by Crissa »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1083020506[/unixtime]]This has been gone over many times, but:

Mostly, though, it's broken because it's not a fun spell. Without the save, it's affecting a creature violating the normal rules for such. There's no repeat save, like with Hold, and the description of the spell leaves many questions exactly what it does. It takes a pretty good GM to know a plain heal check might work against it, or allow a shapechange escape.

It'd be much more fun if the methods for fighting it were in the spell description.

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Re: Miasma isn't really THAT broken.

Post by Username17 »

Mostly, though, it's broken because it's not a fun spell.


Again, I'm going to have to disagree. I have used it once, and George used it once.

It scared players but actually had very little chance of killing them. It's the game equivalent of spooky music - used sparingly it very much increases the feeling of mortality without actually killing player characters. As a DM, that is exactly what you are looking for from "powerful" enemies.

In that regard, Miasma is one of the most perfect spells ever written. It sets up an ambiance of anxiety extremely well. Which means that it's worthless for a PC, by the way. No PC is going to bother with a spell that makes it "feel like" a character could die, because the DM shouldn't really be miffed if an NPC actually dies or not and PCs shouldn't be targetting each other.

It'd be much more fun if the methods for fighting it were in the spell description.


That I will completely agree with. While all of the myriad ways to get around this spell are freely derivable from the spell description, a lot of people don't have the basic grasp of human, animal, and plant physiology to actually know that. If you don't know that plant respiration is handled without a throat, you simply aren't going to be able to figure out most of the simple ways of shutting this spell down - and then you really are probably going to die.

Which would make it useless as a Player Spell (because it takes so long to kill enemies), and useless as a DM spell (because it is actually going to necessarily kill player characters). What there should be is about 2 sentences outlining the very basics of how one goes about breathing when your throat is occluded and give a Heal DC and damage for opening that up on a humanoid.

Not because it is needed for the spell to function - but because some people need that information for the spell to function properly.

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RandomCasualty
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Re: Miasma isn't really THAT broken.

Post by RandomCasualty »

Frank you're disregarding the cheese use of the spell. You cast it on something, then you run away. As a druid you should be able to easily wildshape into something fast, cast this under natural spell and do a hit and run.

Since it's no save, this spell basically allows you to solo some stuff you normally should never have been able to beat.

No save spells are just bad for the game IMO.
Lago_AM3P
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Re: Miasma isn't really THAT broken.

Post by Lago_AM3P »

Frank you're disregarding the cheese use of the spell. You cast it on something, then you run away. As a druid you should be able to easily wildshape into something fast, cast this under natural spell and do a hit and run.


Are you talking about a varient teleport ambush, only it isn't quite that because the druid is actually vulnerable?

Druids don't even come close to the sheer terror of a wizard blowing his wad on a teleport ambush. Now while I have heard arguments that the teleport ambush is broken, the wizard gets away with this more because he can own your face with several spells instead of just one.

Apparently, if we slap people upside the head with a specific spell (like miasma) rather than vague spells (polymorph any object, shadow conjuration, gylph of warding, etc.), people are more likely to whine that it's broken. Why is that?
Lago_AM3P
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Re: Miasma isn't really THAT broken.

Post by Lago_AM3P »

Then again, while I do have problems with the teleport ambush idea (mostly because it's brutally effective in practice yet almost completely unsupported by source material, but whatever), the game designers have actually put in those damn one-shot adventure books where there are high-level opponents who basically work off of the teleport ambush.

I find the idea of a druid actually taking an amount of risk to sneak up on the party and unload a not-necessarily lethal spell a lot more fair than a wizard teleporting in who possessed the body of some planetar with magic jar.
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Re: Miasma isn't really THAT broken.

Post by Username17 »

Disgaea is a game about using Teleport Ambushes. Your characters hop out of a gate and start beating on people, always getting the first turn.

The Teleport Ambush is not completely unsupported by source material - it's something which is in some source material and not others.

D&D suffers over all from its inclusion because it makes source material that does not include the Teleport Ambush (which is in the majority) harder to implement.

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MrWaeseL
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Re: Miasma isn't really THAT broken.

Post by MrWaeseL »

What is the teleport ambush exactly? Simply buffing up and teleporting to the enemy's location?
Lago_AM3P
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Re: Miasma isn't really THAT broken.

Post by Lago_AM3P »

More or less.

Teleport ambushing isn't really that broken if all you use it for is to get your party to the encounter and buff them up beforehand. The game basically turns into a high-level hide and seek, which I weirdly do not have a problem with since that's what the Justice League and Legion of Doom do all the time.

Teleport ambushing gets really broken in the hands of wizards, though, though this is mainly due to a few select spells. Polymorph any Object, natch.
da_chicken
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Re: Miasma isn't really THAT broken.

Post by da_chicken »

Lago_AM3P at [unixtime wrote:1082964895[/unixtime]]It's very powerful, I admit, but I'm going to hold the phone on it being broken.


I've always been of the opinion that the spell is "broken" as in "bad mechanical design". The spell ignores AC, saves, and hit points, basically meaning that there's no standard defense against the spell. It's the same as the 3.0 harm argument. Why should a spell affect with equal power a 1 HD and 40 HD creature? Is not the 40HD creature more powerful?

Is it so bad that it will ruin the game? Probably not. I just don't want to play with it. It's a dumb spell.
Oberoni
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Re: Miasma isn't really THAT broken.

Post by Oberoni »

Where's the rules for punching a hole through a moving creature's chest so they can breathe?
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Re: Miasma isn't really THAT broken.

Post by Username17 »

Oberoni at [unixtime wrote:1083117290[/unixtime]]Where's the rules for punching a hole through a moving creature's chest so they can breathe?


Right here.

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Oberoni
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Re: Miasma isn't really THAT broken.

Post by Oberoni »

Sweet.

What's the DC?

If we're allowed to punch holes in people's chests through the Heal skill, why can't I give my opponents a "Sloppy Trach?"
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Crissa
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Re: Miasma isn't really THAT broken.

Post by Crissa »

Oberoni at [unixtime wrote:1083119322[/unixtime]]If we're allowed to punch holes in people's chests through the Heal skill, why can't I give my opponents a "Sloppy Trach?"


You can! However, unless they're helpless or willing, you're going to have to make them...

First, you pin them with a grapple. Preferably your friends do this.
Second, you take a full-round action. It's called a 'Coup de grace.'

Bingo.

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User3
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Re: Miasma isn't really THAT broken.

Post by User3 »

Heh. You wish.

SRD wrote:When an opponent has pinned you, you are held immobile (but not helpless) for 1 round.

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