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Ancient History
Invincible Overlord


Joined: 18 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Kyrgyz Parliament sacrifices rams to banish evil spirits.
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PoliteNewb
Duke


Joined: 19 Jun 2009
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Location: Alaska

PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:

So again: what's the fucking problem? The system was pretty clever and seems to have worked.

-Frank


Here's the problem, in my book:

That FOX News Article you linked wrote:

The cartels are obtaining arms from America by using "straw man" buyers, who legally purchase weapons at gun shops and gun shows in the U.S. The weapons cross into Mexico, where border security is much weaker heading south of the border than it is going north.

Authorities don't know how many firearms are sneaked across the border, but the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) says more than 7,700 guns sold in America were traced to Mexico last year, up from 3,300 the year before and about 2,100 in 2006. Mexican authorities say 90 percent of smuggled weapons come from the United States.


This is being used by the ATF to make the case that it's super-easy for guns to flow into Mexico from the US, so they need tighter laws.

The problem is, the only reason those guns flowed into Mexico is because the BATF specifically allowed them to!

Wikipedia: Project Gunrunner wrote:
Indictments filed in federal court, documentation obtained by Senator Grassley, and statements of ATF agents obtained by Senator Grassley and CBS News, show that the ATF Phoenix Field Division allowed and facilitated the sale of over 2,500 firearms (AK-47 rifles, FN 5.7mm pistols, AK-47 pistols, and .50 caliber rifles) in 'straw man purchases' destined for Mexico.

According to ATF agents, Mexican officials were not notified, and ATF agents operating in Mexico were instructed not to alert Mexican authorities about the operation. Some ATF agents and supervisors strongly objected, and gun dealers (who were cooperating with ATF) protested the sales, but were asked by ATF to complete the transactions to elucidate the supply chain and gather intelligence.


The ATF wants to point to all these guns and say, "Look at all these guns that get into Mexico!"...but many (perhaps most, perhaps even ALL) of those guns would not have gotten into Mexico if the ATF had not deliberately "allowed and facilitated" these sales and the subsequent transfer across the border.

Frank wrote:
I don't know if that particular seizure from 2009 was related to Project Gunrunner, and I don't know how many total guns were released into the wild by Project Gunrunner. But I'm willing to bet that the total number of guns was less than that one pile.


You would lose that bet.
According to the FOX news article, they seized 540 "assault rifles" and 7 .50 cal rifles (all the remaining weaponry could not have been purchased legally in the US, and must have been obtained from other sources).

According to the Wiki article, they've helped over 2500 firearms get into Mexico. So they need to seize another 4 caches.

All that said...you have a valid point that if this actually does result in capturing cartel arms caches, and DOES end up reducing the amount of armaments in the hands of violent drug dealers, that's a good thing.

But I want the goddamn BATF to be honest about the flow of arms from the US into Mexico, and they are not doing that. And they probably care less about reducing violence in Mexico than convincing American lawmakers, "We need more laws! We need more funding!".
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MGuy
Prince


Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Posts: 3418
Location: Indiana

PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
Draco_Argentum wrote:
I'll tell you why the left hates the rich. Its all to do with human psychology to do with fair play and rewards for work done.


I don't have a problem if someone inherits multiple millions of dollars and never has to work a day in their life. I have a problem when that person lobbies to reduce their tax burden by increasing mine, or by reducing public school budgets, or by increasing the health care costs of seniors.
A lot of Lefties are rich or at least well off. They can't all really hate them. I believe all the left's representatives if not rich are at least better off than the lion's share of their constituents. I think its safer to say that they hate when rich people fuck with their constituents. However I don't see "the left" as being as organized or homogeneous as the right so its harder to nail down what the "left" feels about most thins IMO.
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sabs
Duke


Joined: 29 Dec 2010
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Location: Delaware

PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Like Will Roger once said:

I don't belong to an organized political Party. I'm a Democrat.
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Maxus
Overlord


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That's how the conservatives manage to win some elections. They hash out all their problems and make the agreements first, and move in lockstep to present a united front.

Remember the Scott Walker prank call? Walker was saying how he was expecting/hoping others to follow a lead and called his actions the first domino.
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Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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CatharzGodfoot
King


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 5664
Location: North Carolina

PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

MGuy wrote:
However I don't see "the left" as being as organized or homogeneous as the right so its harder to nail down what the "left" feels about most thins IMO.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-group_homogeneity_bias
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FrankTrollman
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Joined: 07 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

CatharzGodfoot wrote:
MGuy wrote:
However I don't see "the left" as being as organized or homogeneous as the right so its harder to nail down what the "left" feels about most thins IMO.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-group_homogeneity_bias


That is a very good point. The Right is also a completely non-homogeneous group who believe all kinds of different things. The Republican Party Leadership presents a very unified face and exert a level of control on legislators so severe that they can get former POWs to retract condemnations of torture so as to present a more unified message. But the actual people who identify as Republicans do not share the same opinions, values, or goals.

When someone says that they consider themselves a conservative, or that they vote Republican in US elections, they are saying that they are one or more of an: Evangelical, Classical Liberal, Libertarian, Corporatist, Neocon, Militarist, Legalist, Aristocrat, Supply-Sider, Fundamentalist, Isolationist, Racist, or Objectivist. Or you know, one of the more obscure or controversial designations like Fascist (which should probably just be considered Militarist, Racist, Evangelical Corporatism anyway).

Nominally "Right Wing" identification of and solutions to problems usually rely on one or more of: Appeal to Tradition, Open Market Action, Use of Force, Fiscal Savings, Power Consolidation, or Intuitive Assertion. Right Wing justifications for a course of action are often composed of one or more of the following: Nationalism, Tradition, Religion, Danger, or Money.

Let's consider our most vocal conservatives: Tzor, Doom, and Psychic Robot. Tzor is a Religious Supply-Sider, Doom is a Classical Liberal Austrian, and Psychic Robot is an Isolationist Libertarian. Once you get away from conservative identity questions like "How bad is Hilary Clinton?" or "Should we punch hippies?" they agree on pretty close to nothing.

-Frank
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RobbyPants
Prince


Joined: 06 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It makes sense. It's why conservatives tend to laugh at broad generalizations from the right. There are plenty of conservatives who aren't racist or homophobic or whatever they're accused of being. Likewise, I tend to hear conservatives make really broad claims about liberals that I can't even begin to identify with.
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Psychic Robot
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Joined: 03 May 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Should we punch hippies? Yes. How hard? WITH THE FREE MARKET.
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Count Arioch wrote:
I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.

Ant wrote:
Chamomile wrote:
Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?

You do not seem to do anything.
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sabs
Duke


Joined: 29 Dec 2010
Posts: 2347
Location: Delaware

PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

What free market? The one that put salmonella in peanut butter?
The one that put cardboard in meat buns?
Or the one that put horse meat in the beef food chain?
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Psychic Robot
Prince


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

a bloo bloo bloo
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Count Arioch wrote:
I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.

Ant wrote:
Chamomile wrote:
Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?

You do not seem to do anything.
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mean_liar
Duke


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 2186
Location: Boston

PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

<3
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cthulhu
Duke


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 2165

PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Maxus wrote:
I'm all for tightening up the review process to help weed out fraud.

But that's so that Medicare's (or Social Security's) funds can go to the people who really need them, not cutting back on the amount of funds available.


Best fraud controls are interlinking all government databases so infomation from one can be validated against the other(s). Then it's much harder to illigimately claim things because everything is cross checked.

Edit: Supported by targeted audits of people who fit the profile as a likely fraudster. This is not hard to do, though it's unplesant as politics. The reality is, for example, that people paid a salary are not generally fraudulent as tax payers, but small businesses are.

No-one wants to start a policy of 'fuck small businesses up the ass with IRS audits because we KNOW you are tax evaders. You bastards'


Last edited by cthulhu on Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:10 am; edited 2 times in total
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sabs
Duke


Joined: 29 Dec 2010
Posts: 2347
Location: Delaware

PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Psychic Robot wrote:
a bloo bloo bloo


Ah yes, when faced with uncomfortable facts, we go back to the tried and true fingers in hears singing "I can't hear you" method.

I love Republicans.
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RobbyPants
Prince


Joined: 06 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

sabs wrote:
Psychic Robot wrote:
a bloo bloo bloo


Ah yes, when faced with uncomfortable facts, we go back to the tried and true fingers in hears singing "I can't hear you" method.

I love Republicans.
In PR's defense, he's not a republican. Other than that, I blame you for responding to a fairly obviously tongue-in-cheek response from a self-admitted troll with a serious post. Tongue
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sabs
Duke


Joined: 29 Dec 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

He keeps insisting he's not a troll...
Oh, right he's a crazy Libertarian.
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RobbyPants
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think his insistence is part of the trolling. I'm too lazy to dig up old posts, but I can think of at least two occasions where he's specifically admitted to it. One was simply in the context of the boards here. Another was when he was posting a bunch of Facebook posts where he was trolling a Republican, and he used the name Bill. He explained that his name isn't really Bill, and that was a fake account he'd set up just for trolling.
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Darth Rabbitt
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Joined: 05 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yeah, PR is just a contrarian troll.

I'm surprised that anyone's responding to him.
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tzor
Prince


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Meanwhile: BREAKING NEWS (File this under - O My God, Trump actually accomplished something)

hite House Releases Copy of Long Form of Obama's Birth Certificate From Hawaii

OK, I think we can finally put the whole matter to rest now.

So, like, what took them so long?

Do they like to be fucking pricks?

But I'm glad that's finally over.

I mean this whol conspiracy thing, that BHO was actually the regeneration of the Time Lord known as the Meddling Monk was starting to get really silly.
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RobbyPants
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

tzor wrote:
Meanwhile: BREAKING NEWS (File this under - O My God, Trump actually accomplished something)

hite House Releases Copy of Long Form of Obama's Birth Certificate From Hawaii

OK, I think we can finally put the whole matter to rest now.

So, like, what took them so long?

Do they like to be fucking pricks?

But I'm glad that's finally over.

I mean this whol conspiracy thing, that BHO was actually the regeneration of the Time Lord known as the Meddling Monk was starting to get really silly.
Are they required to show the long form, or is the short form acceptable? My understanding was that they already met the legal obligation years ago. Showing the long form is doing nothing but catering to people complaining that that isn't good enough.
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Koumei
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It does set the precedent for them to just waste all his time demanding he prove he is genetically human, has a central nervous system, etc.
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tzor
Prince


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

RobbyPants wrote:
Are they required to show the long form, or is the short form acceptable? My understanding was that they already met the legal obligation years ago. Showing the long form is doing nothing but catering to people complaining that that isn't good enough.


The problem was that the short form was not in and of itself proof that he was "born" in Haiwaii; the long form is proof. The long form is required for a number of things, including a passport, which I think he would have needed in order to go around the world campaigning for president back in 2008.

There really is no "enforcer of the constitution." The supreme court won't even touch a case unless someone has proper standing to bring it up; never mind someone proactively enforcing the constitution. Ideally, the speaker of the house is required to confirm the certify the candidates and the ballots of the electoral college, but recall at the time that was Nancy Pelosi who was known for passing laws in order to find out what was in them.
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angelfromanotherpin
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

tzor wrote:
The long form is required for a number of things, including a passport (snip)


No it fucking isn't. I don't even have my long form BC, and I've gotten U.S. passports at home and abroad without any trouble at all.
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Orion
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Some states don't even produce long form BCs. Including some states that now require one to get on the ballot.
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sabs
Duke


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

My sons do not HAVE longform birtth certificates.

They have very pretty Certificates of Live Birth with a pretty seal from Alameda. There's no doctor's signature or anything on it.
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