Working with the brokety de' broke ECL system.

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Lago_AM3P
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Working with the brokety de' broke ECL system.

Post by Lago_AM3P »

On a place where I play, there's a race being offered up by the DM. Called 'The Beastment'. It's ECL+1. Here's what you get.

Strength +8, Constitution +4, Dexterity, Cha, Int -2.
Natural Armor +4
Large Sized
+3 checks to intimidate.

Is all that worth a level? I'm not asking for an assessment for fairness or whatever, but simply if a character who picked a race like that can hold his own in the numbers game.
da_chicken
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Re: Working with the brokety de' broke ECL system.

Post by da_chicken »

I'm assuming by ECL +1 you actually mean ECL +1 and not just LA +1. That is, there are no racial HD.

Is it worth it? Well, half-ogre from Savage Species is completely broken IMX (we convinced a DM to let us try it). Those are +6 Str, +2 Con, -2 Dex, -2 Int, -2 Cha; Large; Darkvision 60'; natural armor +4; type giant; no racial HD; LA +1.

These are directly better.

Regular ogres are CR 3 and ECL +6, so there's an absolute penalty of 3 levels [that is, accounting for the fact that an ECL 6 human has CR 6]. These guys are roughly equal to ogres. That suggests they should be LA +3. Ish.
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Re: Working with the brokety de' broke ECL system.

Post by Boulie_98 »

Hmmm, that would make a pretty boss Spike Chain wielding Karmic Striking superTripper.
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Re: Working with the brokety de' broke ECL system.

Post by Absentminded_Wizard »

I'm with da chicken. It sounds like, if anything, the ECL should be higher. That +8 is a signifigant bonus to Strength, and it synergizes well with the +4 to Con.
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Re: Working with the brokety de' broke ECL system.

Post by Username17 »

Well, half-ogre from Savage Species is completely broken IMX


Weird experience. I've run the numbers, an Orc with a Spiked Chain and a Rogue level does more damage, has more hit points, better saves, and has more skills.

The Half-Ogre is a pile of numbers which is collectively smaller than the Orc.

Now this character you are talking about is pretty impressive at low level. And by pretty impressive, I mean that he will single handedly walk all over your second level encounters and kill them all.

At high levels, he sucks. That +8 Strength is impressive at 2nd level, when the party Orc is a Barbarian/Rogue and you're a Barbarian - and the Orc is dishing out a little more damage than you are and you have a better melee attack bonus and better AC. But consider how things are going to look in 13 more levels. Your Strength will be a natural 29 - which is impressive, but actually both of you will be transformed into Firbolgs (strength 36) or even Titans.

That strength bonus, which is so impressive at low level, actually doesn't mean anything at all at 15th level.

So what level are you guys playing at? I figure such a charcater would go obsolete at about 9th level.

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Re: Working with the brokety de' broke ECL system.

Post by Wrenfield »

Until either the Orc or the Half-Ogre are polymorphed, you also have to factor in that the Half-Ogre has a reach of 10'. Which for certain customized builds, makes a huge difference in effectiveness comparisons. Also, the Half-Ogre is Large, giving him a +4 statistical advantage in builds that emphasize bullrushing and/or tripping (which as a front-liner, he is doing a lot of this anyway).

I personally don't dig the Half-Ogre that much ... but I also don't think he is broken. From what I recall, he's pretty much in line with the Mineral Warrior and Feral templates - both of which are nifty additions to front-liners as well.

da_chicken
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Re: Working with the brokety de' broke ECL system.

Post by da_chicken »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1081628932[/unixtime]]
Well, half-ogre from Savage Species is completely broken IMX


Weird experience. I've run the numbers, an Orc with a Spiked Chain and a Rogue level does more damage, has more hit points, better saves, and has more skills.


And numbers don't lie! They're numbers! I don't know what to tell you, Frank. "IMX" is "IMX".

However, the "whatever, just polymorph" argument is rather irrelevant. If anything, it shows that spell is too powerful. That's like saying astral projection isn't too powerful because, hey, look at shapechange.
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Re: Working with the brokety de' broke ECL system.

Post by Crissa »

Frank has run the numbers, and (polymorph and buff spells aside) the Orc always wins the shlong contest.

I hate looking at raw numbers like that, to say, 'he's better than him' but, when looking if something is broke or not, you gotta do just that. Besides, if you're looking for flavour balance there... Just lean where you stats matter as opposed to skills.

So I agree with him, it's not really broken.

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...But then again, we play where the sword and board fighter somehow ended up wading into combat with a 36 AC at level 8, no polybuffmasturbation.
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Re: Working with the brokety de' broke ECL system.

Post by Lago_AM3P »

Sword and board is one of my favorite D&D expressions ever.

I just wanted to say that.
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Re: Working with the brokety de' broke ECL system.

Post by Crissa »

Lago_AM3P at [unixtime wrote:1081655824[/unixtime]]Sword and board is one of my favorite D&D expressions ever.

I just wanted to say that.

I swear, hanging out with Frank et al. is bad on my vocabulary.

...Not by knowing less words, but in fact being exposed to a whole new set of things I can say which the average person won't have a clue about what I'm saying. It's not good.

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Re: Working with the brokety de' broke ECL system.

Post by RandomCasualty »

da_chicken at [unixtime wrote:1081646732[/unixtime]]However, the "whatever, just polymorph" argument is rather irrelevant. If anything, it shows that spell is too powerful.


Yeah I agree. Polymorph is perhaps one of the most poorly designed spells in the game, Because it doesn't augment anything, it just overwrites. It basically totally devalues the physical ability scores except for con.

As for how to fix polymorph, I have no idea... it's the unanswerable question.
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Re: Working with the brokety de' broke ECL system.

Post by Username17 »

Yeah I agree. Polymorph is perhaps one of the most poorly designed spells in the game, Because it doesn't augment anything, it just overwrites. It basically totally devalues the physical ability scores except for con.


Since this seems to be a 3.5 conversation - it devalues Constitution as well. In 3rd edition, if you were clever, you could cause it to devalue your Constitution when it was in your favor, but in 3.5 it devalues your Constitution all the time.

As for how to fix polymorph, I have no idea... it's the unanswerable question.


It's not unanswerable. Polymorph will never ever be balanced as long as:

1. It is based upon an ever growing list of monsters and their abilities.

2. It over writes physical abilities instead of augmenting them.

These can both be fixed by making all Polymorph effects into specific bonuses and form shifts like those performed by the Bear Warrior. As long as people can dumpster dive for new Polymorph Power every time a monster book is printed or sell their physical stats to Guatemalan slave traders Polymorph will never be balanced.

But if Polymorph allows you to pick groups of bonuses and penalties off a list then it has neither of these problems.

---

Regardless. If you are playing in a game with Polymorph, then that's the hand you're given. That's the world you live in. And pouting about how people are "too strong" when they in fact have less strength than everyone can get out of Polymorph for free is an obvious fallacy.

If you are willing to put up with the social ramifications of being big dumb and ugly - you are willing to put up with the social ramifications of being a brilliant and perceptive yet frail and clumsy person who is transformed into a big and ugly creature. The fact that the second option is in all ways game mechanically superior means that under the rules we are actually playing with the first option is under powered.

---

There is a second thing going on here. Namely, that at low levels, spellcasters suck at doing damage. With some good strategy, and a team of adventurers, a low-level wizard can perform admirably. But there is simply no way on this green Earth that a wizard can compete with a guy carrying a warhammer and a long bow for damage out put. It just isn't going to happen.

In terms of damage output and resiliance - a 2nd level warrior with a decent strength and a martial weapon is going to absolutely blow your wizard away. There's just no comparison. (on a side note, I recently pulled out the stops and brought a 2nd level Gray Elf Wizard into a group I hadn't played with before - after unloading my wad of Grease, Sleep, Silent Image, and Color Spray people actually had their eyes bug out and said "Wow, he's really powerful" - despite the fact that I did less damage than any other player) Magic Missile, Burning Hands, Shocking Grasp? These spells suck it like they were drowning and my balls were filled with oxygen.

So at low levels, Barbarians are just Over Powered. At least, if by "overpowered" you mean "inflicts more damage than any two other characters and has more hit points and a better armor class". However, damage is often not the best way to deal with things immediately, and at higher levels the entire damage strategy becomes even more hollow. So if those are your criteria, then yes, Half-Ogres are "overpowered". They aren't quite as overpowered as Orcish Barbarian/Rogues - but they are close. And that's goign to be incredibly noticable, so long as your friends are trying to hurt enemies with Magic Missile.

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Re: Working with the brokety de' broke ECL system.

Post by User3 »

Frank wrote:In terms of damage output and resiliance - a 2nd level warrior with a decent strength and a martial weapon is going to absolutely blow your wizard away. There's just no comparison. (on a side note, I recently pulled out the stops and brought a 2nd level Gray Elf Wizard into a group I hadn't played with before - after unloading my wad of Grease, Sleep, Silent Image, and Color Spray people actually had their eyes bug out and said "Wow, he's really powerful" - despite the fact that I did less damage than any other player) Magic Missile, Burning Hands, Shocking Grasp? These spells suck it like they were drowning and my balls were filled with oxygen.

So at low levels, Barbarians are just Over Powered. At least, if by "overpowered" you mean "inflicts more damage than any two other characters and has more hit points and a better armor class". However, damage is often not the best way to deal with things immediately, and at higher levels the entire damage strategy becomes even more hollow. So if those are your criteria, then yes, Half-Ogres are "overpowered". They aren't quite as overpowered as Orcish Barbarian/Rogues - but they are close. And that's goign to be incredibly noticable, so long as your friends are trying to hurt enemies with Magic Missile.


At least in my sphere of influence, that's the way Wizards are supposed to be played. In a traditional iconic 4-person party (Rog, Ftr, Cler, Wiz), you've got 3 characters whose whole raisson d'etre in combat is to damage, damage, damage. And unfortunately, not all combat encounters can be resolved via damage ... or ... they need some sort of other tactical event that will facilitate damage-dealing by those 3 characters. And that's where the Wizard excels. He should not be casting spells like Magic Missile and Fireball all day long. He should be the guy casting buffs, divinations, utility spells, and battlefield control spells. Yeah, your Cleric will be doing this too, but hopefully not in battle. His slots are best used as personal buffs (he's the best Fighter after all), cures/restorations, non-combat divinations, etc.

Wizards I see played like this have more success with party dynamics than with say, the ever-popular Artillery Sorceror and Red Wizard Evoker - both of which may suffer from selfish playing and a sad inability to provide for their teammates. And its further fuel for the fire that the Evocation school of magic continues to be top pick for an opposite/banned school for Wizard Specialists.
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Re: Working with the brokety de' broke ECL system.

Post by Wrenfield »

That was me ... forgot to log-in! :blush:
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Re: Working with the brokety de' broke ECL system.

Post by RandomCasualty »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1081670454[/unixtime]]
Regardless. If you are playing in a game with Polymorph, then that's the hand you're given. That's the world you live in. And pouting about how people are "too strong" when they in fact have less strength than everyone can get out of Polymorph for free is an obvious fallacy.


Well, the problem is however that by balancing everything by polymorph...

-First you're balancing everything by a broken spell. That's not good.

-Second, because you're balancing everything that way, you end up giving nothing any ECL for being physically powerful. So there's really no point in not starting as a non-HD strength race when you're a fighter. It's free power at 1st level, so why not?
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Re: Working with the brokety de' broke ECL system.

Post by Maj »

ECL must be balanced on a scaling basis, Polymorph or not. Stats are only important at two points in the game:

1) When you're beginning and thus ability score iniquities make a big difference.

2) When you're really high level and everyone has the same uber gear, and thus ability score differences show once again.

In the mid-levels, they mean nothing, and despite being noticeable at high levels, they don't make that much of a difference.

Special abilities granted by race are generally overcome-able by magical itemry, or they become obsolete (like having Sleep a few times per day).

Even something like Teleport Without Error at will can become ho-hum at high levels.

Handing out an LA that's permanent totally slaps a character around.
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