M:tA, Mage the Awsome or Awful?

[Princess]

Well, it is not the game I actually participated, I'm only silent watcher who just get some time-to-time logs, but still...

Beginning of the story: On of the players a play with suddenly started to tell us that he is playing MtA. He was quite excited last few months, I bet he had a hard on during his games. However, first of all he made one critical failure. He start spamming other my player about "how awesome MtA is" and she hates fishnet-systems like MtA. Second, he started to boast that he have truly epic adventures and unlike DnD we are playing together they HAVE NO OFFTOPIC (I have to admit that offtopics are frequent on our games). This "truly epic" statements surprised my MtA-hating player because playing 19th level fullcaster who is a nobleborn princess and also a cardinal, not mentioning her maxed Charisma earned her title of the most beautiful woman in the whole world she wondered. So we both united to watch epic adventures, may be we had something to learn from this.

So goes the story.
"Epic" MtA is actually campaign which is played for more than two years if I'm correct. We found out that one friend of mine participated in this campaign some long time ago - but he ran away and was deeply shocked by something. Furthermore, the only constant player in this campaign is actually my "epic-no-offtopic" player, other players are running away by unknown reasons (I don't know them personally to ask). And once they had WtA Garu shaman in their party who suddenly have to get along with freaky mages (I think Garu player ran away because he was constantly abused by fishnet-magic-system usage by ST).

Grind-grind-grind
Playing more than a two years his "epic" character have reached.. Arete 4. Yes, he started from Arete 3. Yes, he got Arete 4 not so long time ago. Another two years and he might be able to reach arete 5. But there is one simple thing: ST uses bunch of goddamn masters and Archmage (6+ dots) Elminsters to buff party and send them on quest. Buffs are required because otherwise system is quite lethal, and PC cannot buff themselves on a decent level.
Also they up-to-st-ignore Paradox rules, which means that running around and throwing fireballs is ok if you sucked ST cock (and you reaped apart by paradox if you wronged his girlfriend). And technocracy are incompetent dumbasses who cannot do a thing with mage-freaks running on streets and throwing a fireballs.

So what we have seen from moment we got our attention on their games.
Party met some npc with surname from retarded anime. Some NPC archmage (better than you guy who can kill all PC in half of action) tries to attack this anime-npc and suddenly get fucked up, I doubt any dices were rolled actually. Yes, old as world "Awesome NPC who easily defeats npcs who easily beat the party". And then party got quest from etherites to got essence of Abaddon so that they can build some spaceship to explore umbra.
Suddenly ST declared, that because people tend to be atheistic in the modern world Demons are actually weak, and even Earthbound Dukes do not have 6+ dots (I have to remind you that "peoples do not believe in magic so it causes paradox" rule was brutally discarded, and there is lots of 6+ archmages. May be this ST have hard times with logical thinking).

So the party goes to Abaddon, Awesome Better-than-better-than-party-npc NPC dead-locks (no dice are actually rolled I fear) gimped Abaddon and allows PC to do some dirty health damage work (actually this npc could easily defeat abbadon and PC if they suddenly joined forces).
They get gimped abaddon essence and etherites build spaceship. Abaddon is gimp but yes, his essence was required. No, corrupted essence of bane/demon do not cause some unpleasant effects.

After this "epic-no-offtopic" PC is informed that because he delivered final blow against impotent abaddon, forces of hell will hunt him.. to make him ruler of 7th circle of hell. Weakling abaddon ruled 7th circle of hell so anyone who defeats him is to be next ruler. No, demons do not want to start fighting each other so the winner will declare himself the boss, they want the one who removed last health level (not the Awesome NPC who actually defeated abaddon) from abaddon's reliquary.
Then he informed that he have the way to drive hordes of hell from his trail - he have to steal some sword from museum in Berlin and ask some fantasy writer about how to use this sword.

That's all for now.

And I'm still wondering, is defeating nerfed Demon with help of overpowered better-than-you-ever-be anime-surname NPC is epic or what?

[Lago PARANOIA]

Nothing about Mage has ever inspired me to give it even a glance.

Like, why is that shit even in the World of Darkness? I can understand Changeling and Prometheus and Hunter and even fucking Wraith, but Mage? ... eh. That shit should've been folded into Hunter. But I digress.

Regardless, from what I've heard Mage does not even interact with the rest of the metaplot. Like, why the shit do Mages care what's going on in werewolf land? I'm aware that all WoD splats have this problem, but Mage takes this to a whole new level. Like Werewolf compared to Vampire is a problem in the same way that Wolverine and Spider-Man are a problem; they have non-overlapping concerns except on a broad level. But they could team up. Mage and the rest of WoD is like Wolverine and Thor teaming up. They're not even on the same level.

[Princess]

Mages are actually prone to paradox, but most MtA wankers just ignore it. And half of mages power is from fishnet-like magic rules.

[K]

Magic is the best game you can't stand playing. I mean, it's all potential and no payoff.

Advancement in all ST games is too slow and dependent on ST, the mechanics are barely a step above magic tea party, and the lethality is cranked extremely high..... Mage has a special kind of lethality where even powerful supernaturals like Vampires just explode.

But the setting is really cool. I bought a pile of the books but only played a few times before I wanted to punch someone in the face.

[Sashi]

Regardless, from what I've heard Mage does not even interact with the rest of the metaplot. Like, why the shit do Mages care what's going on in werewolf land?

The weirdest thing about WoD games is that nobody is involved in anyone's metaplot. The exclusive shared note is "everything's all fucked, oh shit, oh shit", but the way it's fucked is completely different for everyone.

In terms of power level, a Mage isn't supposed to be enormously more powerful than a Vampire or Werewolf or Hunter (Which is already a tenuous power comparison, I'll grant you that), but the Mage's power is supposed to be limited by the paradox rules, which are ignored just as often as the Vampire humanity rules. Which means that, more than any other game, your power level is determined by how well you can manipulate MC.

[ckafrica]

I played a MtA game for 4 years which is far and away the longest and best campaign I've ever played in. But that was 90% due to the fact that our ST was very creative but also fair and consistent on her rule interpretations so our group quickly created a communal understanding of what we accepted our powers could do.

Reality is its really hard to clearly define what you can actually do with specific spheres do. Every group is likely to have a different interpretation of what they can do. The rules tend to indicate that mages should rule the world as even a novice mage can have auto-kill abilities that make vampires and werewolves cry.

I loved mage but it will only work with a well disciplined group and a ST you can trust implicitly. Otherwise you'll probably find that your sessions will degenerate into arguments regarding whether player X can do what he thinks he can.

[Bucket Head]

In terms of power level, a Mage isn't supposed to be enormously more powerful than a Vampire or Werewolf or Hunter (Which is already a tenuous power comparison, I'll grant you that), but the Mage's power is supposed to be limited by the paradox rules, which are ignored just as often as the Vampire humanity rules. Which means that, more than any other game, your power level is determined by how well you can manipulate MC.

I'm currently going with a nWoD crossover right now. The game had to be heavily houseruled to prevent the party members from losing control of themselves and killing each other simply because their players botched a dice roll, or stepping all over each others' feet any time they used their own powers.

Mages tended to go one of two ways in combat. If they were fighting against ordinary people (ie: non magic folks that don't believe in magic) with guns, the mages would find themselves sitting behind a rock wondering what they could do. And if they weren't fighting non-magic folks, they could simply whistle, snap their fingers, and win the encounter right then and there, because they could.

Part of the problem is that Werewolves and Hunters especially are designed to work in a group and as a result need to optimize to become good at what they do. A Mage doesn't need to do that, because all he needs to do is write his own spells and then he can pretty much beat even the most over-optimized Vampire/Werewolf/Hunter at their own purpose. The Paradox and Wisdom rules are a small inconvenience at best because the mages can simply lay down one giant powerful spell that does everything for them, absorb whatever comes, and then they'll be fine within an hour or so.

It might be fun if the ST really knows his players and their players really know their ST, but in a crossover game it becomes incredibly difficult for a mixed party to remain together without someone becoming redundant, even if all the players know and trust each other and have been together through other campaigns.

[Princess]

but the Mage's power is supposed to be limited by the paradox rules, which are ignored just as often as the Vampire humanity rules.

Ignoring the paradox rules is more like ignoring "your blood points are limited" rule. Without paradox mages are effectively have unlimited "pool" of casting.

[Sashi]

Blood points have a very specific list of the point cost for certain effects. Paradox is more of a limitation on how much your effect "violates" reality. So usually you can make the paradox cost nominal by constructing giant rube goldberg causality machines.

[Princess]

>> you can make the paradox cost nominal by sicking ST cock or smth like this
I fixed your sentence. Btw afair paradox cost is equal to highest sphere used in spell. But I forgot is this a revised version or not.

[Sashi]

I just researched the nWoD and your'e right that the new one treats Paradox as a codified cost of casting spells. Back in oWoD Paradox was specifically the way the ST cockslapped you for casting fireballs if he felt like it.

[Ice9]

Although while it may be arbitrary as fuck to adjudicate, I like the concept of trying to disguise your spells as coincidences - i.e. making a gas line suddenly explode instead of launching a fireball from your hands. More interesting than just a fixed cost, IMO.

[Username17]

Paradox costs are severely mitigated with something being "coincidental" in every version of the game. So people who go on rube goldberg causality rants have a much larger casting pool than people who throw fireballs from their hands by design.

-Username17

[Princess]

>> . So people who go on rube goldberg causality rants have a much larger casting pool
Let me remind you that ST is the one who determines the (im)possibility of event becoming in "natural" way. So once again we have to suck ST cock.

[koz]

>> . So people who go on rube goldberg causality rants have a much larger casting pool
Let me remind you that ST is the one who determines the (im)possibility of event becoming in "natural" way. So once again we have to suck ST cock.

Sucking ST cock is a part of the White Wolf philosophy. Seriously, it may as well be a license for narrator fellatio.

[Bucket Head]

Whether or not the ST enforces them, Paradoxes are more of an "Oh, look, I can absorb and get away with one or two bashing damage points which heal in fifteen minutes. Unfortunately all my enemies just got trapped beneath a steel cube one kilometre wide, one kilometre thick, and one kilometre across that just popped out of thin air with no saving throw and they have no defense against it. Thanks, let's break initiative." sort of thing.

The paradox rules aren't so much when only one spell's needed to be cast per scene to do practically anything they need to. Mages don't even need fireballs. The magic rules in nWoD are so loosely written a player or a ST can get away with nearly anything he wants and suffer no ill consequences except for having a couple /'s in his wound track for the next hour or so regardless of how vulgar the spell is because the limit for paradox is only +2 for any sleeper seeing it, regardless of whether it's one or a hundred, and the unravelling only happens after the fact, right?*

*or at least that's what I was told...