What does level 20 look like?

[Psychic Robot]

What level 20 looks like depends on the group. Some people think that level 20 looks like Lord of the Rings. Others thing that level 20 looks like Dragonball Z. For some people, the fact that you can face off against powerful demons and win is high enough power for it to be "level 20"; others need to be able to defeat armies for their character to be "level 20."

[Darth Rabbitt]

I'd like to see more level breakdowns like Josh's.

What level 20 looks like depends on the group. Some people think that level 20 looks like Lord of the Rings. Others thing that level 20 looks like Dragonball Z. For some people, the fact that you can face off against powerful demons and win is high enough power for it to be "level 20"; others need to be able to defeat armies for their character to be "level 20."

20th level D&D can't really look like LotR without a massive rehaul (except 4e, because all levels are basically the same there).

Maybe it can look like the Silmarillion, but I don't remember it too well.

And people who can take on powerful demons can take on armies, in D&D at least.

But you are right that some people think that it should look like that, and that everyone won't agree on everything.

[Lokathor]

ah, yeah, see, my vidya game familiarity is more stuff like this, or this.

...or this but that's completely unhelpful here...

But anyway, so basically we're using video game characters to display what we think high level characters need to be like, right? I mean, sure, we can use other stuff too, but mostly video games are what we've brought up.

But hell, we could use wuxian films too, and give martial characters wuxian "flight" at 8th level or whatever, and let them travel Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon or Hulk style. Yes, that's mid level, but it's an example.

Except that even though it looks cool and all, God Of War is something like a level 6 to 8 adventure in DnD-land.

[Prak]

ah, yeah, see, my vidya game familiarity is more stuff like this, or this.

...or this but that's completely unhelpful here...

But anyway, so basically we're using video game characters to display what we think high level characters need to be like, right? I mean, sure, we can use other stuff too, but mostly video games are what we've brought up.

But hell, we could use wuxian films too, and give martial characters wuxian "flight" at 8th level or whatever, and let them travel Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon or Hulk style. Yes, that's mid level, but it's an example.

Except that even though it looks cool and all, God Of War is something like a level 6 to 8 adventure in DnD-land.

Erm... six to eight? really? what games do you play in? I want to kill gods at 8th level!

[virgil]

With the limitless numbers of hoplite skeletons he fights, that alone puts him into the 9+ range. I'd personally put him at ~10, a touch better than Herakles (who never actually fights the gods).

[Maxus]

With the limitless numbers of hoplite skeletons he fights, that alone puts him into the 9+ range. I'd personally put him at ~10, a touch better than Herakles (who never actually fights the gods).

That fits. In GoW 3, Kratos does fight good old Herc. More or less straight-up-and-even.

Kratos also bitch-slapped the Fates until he had what he wanted.

The thing to remember, though, is that Kratos is much, much stronger than the D&D system really handles. Throwing the Colossus of Rhodes off its feet? Pushing back so hard the fucking Titan Atlas can't actually crush Kratos between two fingers?

Not to mention if we based high-level melee on Kratos, you need to decide what the Break DC of people is. So people know exactly how often they can snatch something's leg off and hit the person with it.

[tussock]

Twelve impossible things before the day is through.

You can visit the lands of the dead, chat with the generals of hell, find the soul of the lost emperor, battle your way past a grand fleet of space pirates to get to the world of the great old ones, retrieve the seventh fallen star from within yog-sothoth, shatter it within the forge of the world with the hammer of creation that you picked up on your way over, return the hammer to it's true resting place within nowhere, call back to life the emperor's most trusted guards from centuries ago, and make them watch as you turn his soul into a slab of indestructible metal and carve "lost emperors suck" in it.

Only, that's more like 16th, because I didn't cast any 9th level spells yet. Perhaps 20th is where we pretend that never happened, and so it really didn't. Where we set out to close all the ten thousand and one portals to the shadow realm, so that all the goblins in the world will die, and by succeeding, become gods.

[angelfromanotherpin]

The thing to remember, though, is that Kratos is much, much stronger than the D&D system really handles. Throwing the Colossus of Rhodes off its feet?

Making a trip check?

Pushing back so hard the fucking Titan Atlas can't actually crush Kratos between two fingers?

Winning a grapple check?

It really seems more like Kratos has some class feature that ignores the other guy's size mods for combat maneuvers.

[Lokathor]

ah, yeah, see, my vidya game familiarity is more stuff like this, or this.

...or this but that's completely unhelpful here...

But anyway, so basically we're using video game characters to display what we think high level characters need to be like, right? I mean, sure, we can use other stuff too, but mostly video games are what we've brought up.

But hell, we could use wuxian films too, and give martial characters wuxian "flight" at 8th level or whatever, and let them travel Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon or Hulk style. Yes, that's mid level, but it's an example.

Except that even though it looks cool and all, God Of War is something like a level 6 to 8 adventure in DnD-land.

Erm... six to eight? really? what games do you play in? I want to kill gods at 8th level!

With the limitless numbers of hoplite skeletons he fights, that alone puts him into the 9+ range. I'd personally put him at ~10, a touch better than Herakles (who never actually fights the gods).

Well okay, The first game is in 6 to 8 land. TOME version of 6 to 8 land, that is. You can seriously make a Soulborn with reach and running and whirlwind attacks and all that and get most of Krato's powers with soulmelds and feats. Equipment covers the rest (though it's been ages since I played that game, perhaps I've forgotten a special power or two). Other than the god, the boss battles of the game are a Hydra-like creature (CR 4, at the start) and an oversized Minotaur (CR 8, near the end).

The "kill a god at level 6" thing is simply either a 1e/2e version of how the gods work (Lolth has 66hp, go for it!), which isn't out of the question for an Ancient Greece setting. Or, it's an E6 "this is a special situation and a super power creature has been put on an even playing field by a ritual/ wizard/ other super power/ your mom".

Reading what he does in the 2nd and 3rd game, alright yeah they went way over the top with it (cool stuff really). First game? He's not super special.

[virgil]

If you're going to be pulling CR equivalents, then towards the middle of the first game, he regularly fights a plurality of gorgons (EL 9+). If you count them as weaker than regular medusa because it's not a constant gaze attack, then Medusa herself holds a very close equivalence to an enhanced D&D gorgon (that bull with petrification breath), which is CR 8 before being buffed.

The ability to cast raise dead & stone to flesh on himself is definitely in the CL 9+ range.

I can see starting at level 6, but 8 is very much not his cap towards the end (barring the godhood part).

[Neurosis]

I still don't get why people have a problem thinking that a Barbarian or Fighter should do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PCDxS8uJFQ

I have no problem with a Level 20 Barbarian doing that. But not a Level 15 or a Level 10 Barbarian. Just too extreme.

[koz]

I still don't get why people have a problem thinking that a Barbarian or Fighter should do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PCDxS8uJFQ

I have no problem with a Level 20 Barbarian doing that. But not a Level 15 or a Level 10 Barbarian. Just too extreme.

I really don't get why. Let's just break down what the main guy actually does throughout.

1) Gets shot by lots of arrows and lives.

This isn't even a 10th level thing to do. Surviving a bunch of archers isn't anywhere near 20th level.

2) Punches people really hard.

Umm... you're seriously telling me that a 1st level MONK class feature is a 20th level thing because a BARBARIAN does it?

3) Hits things with a pillar.

Again, lifting big objects and smashing them against people isn't a big deal at all using DnD rules, since the damage isn't even close to an SoD in efficacy.

4) Passes his Fort save against Giant Finger From The Sky.

So? It's called having a good Fort save (and possibly Mettle). What's 20th level about that?

Colour me unconvinced. This guy's like, 8th level or so. Maybe even less.

[Prak]

Not to mention if we based high-level melee on Kratos, you need to decide what the Break DC of people is. So people know exactly how often they can snatch something's leg off and hit the person with it.

That's fucking easy. You go find the tensile strength of flesh, bone and connective tissues (hell, buy a haunch of beef or something) and convert that to lbs as necessary, then look up on the strength chart that amount. That gives you, at least a ball park, of what the DC should be (probably set by the heavy load column) by basically saying "Ok, a person with this strength should be able to do it by rolling well" and taking the mod and adding it to, like, 15. Ideally a person with the weight in the medium load range should have to roll 10, and a person with it in the light load range should have to roll 5, but I don't know if it'd actually work out like that.

[Neurosis]

I still don't get why people have a problem thinking that a Barbarian or Fighter should do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PCDxS8uJFQ

I have no problem with a Level 20 Barbarian doing that. But not a Level 15 or a Level 10 Barbarian. Just too extreme.

I really don't get why. Let's just break down what the main guy actually does throughout.

1) Gets shot by lots of arrows and lives.

This isn't even a 10th level thing to do. Surviving a bunch of archers isn't anywhere near 20th level.

2) Punches people really hard.

Umm... you're seriously telling me that a 1st level MONK class feature is a 20th level thing because a BARBARIAN does it?

3) Hits things with a pillar.

Again, lifting big objects and smashing them against people isn't a big deal at all using DnD rules, since the damage isn't even close to an SoD in efficacy.

4) Passes his Fort save against Giant Finger From The Sky.

So? It's called having a good Fort save (and possibly Mettle). What's 20th level about that?

Colour me unconvinced. This guy's like, 8th level or so. Maybe even less.

I am not sure we watched the same video.

[Red Archon]

First sequence: the spears.
I counted about 25 spears going through him. Because they're thrown well, I suppose the spears are Large Javelins (same thing) which equals 25d8=112 base damage on average. The character does not indicate damage reduction or fast healing, but seems quite unfazed by the damage.

Second sequence: the mooks.
A bunch of one-shotted mooks, that indicate no power level of their own. With Cleave, that's about one or two rounds worth of attacks, if the barbarian has Pounce. Some AoE knockout move, which seems like in the range of Fireball in fierceness.

Interlude: hit by Huge Greatsword. Doesn't do damage. Damred and/or natural AC takes the hit.

Third sequence: the marble column and hitting pretty hard.
He manages to carry and run at something with a marble column. Without a feat/feature, this is probably the most demanding part of the film, because running requires you to have medium load, and that thing is fairly big. Also he hits pretty hard with a fist.

Fourth and fifth sequence: finale.
Guy's in a fisticuff. Whatevs. The Big Finger is a spell cast by that other boring Japanese dude, and in no way indicates mechanics superior to Crushing Fist of Spite, which does a max of 20d6, ref for half. Dude is more or less incapacitated after one hit. Can't say wheter or not he made his save, though it seems it was against Fort and he did, with the glorified representation of the aftermath. So, suppose he might've taken another 20d6/2=35 damage.

After which he's done. This is totally level 8-12 territory. And if it's the special effects that confuse you, I think you may require a more narratively inclined DM.

[cthulhu]

First sequence: the spears.
I counted about 25 spears going through him. Because they're thrown well, I suppose the spears are Large Javelins (same thing) which equals 25d8=112 base damage on average. The character does not indicate damage reduction or fast healing, but seems quite unfazed by the damage.

The important thing not that he soaked 112 damage, it's that he survived a massive archery barrage. One way to do this is to have mad AC. Another way to have DR.

In this case, the DR is what you get from a 2nd level spell.

This is a level 3 ability.

Second sequence: the mooks.
A bunch of one-shotted mooks, that indicate no power level of their own. With Cleave, that's about one or two rounds worth of attacks, if the barbarian has Pounce. Some AoE knockout move, which seems like in the range of Fireball in fierceness.

Yeah, level 5?

Third sequence: the marble column and hitting pretty hard.
He manages to carry and run at something with a marble column. Without a feat/feature, this is probably the most demanding part of the film, because running requires you to have medium load, and that thing is fairly big. Also he hits pretty hard with a fist.

Yeah, this is hard I guess but really any number of 5th level spells will punch the other dude super hard. The column thing is cool though but it's hard to do that in D&D at any level unless you are super huge.

Fourth and fifth sequence: finale.
Guy's in a fisticuff. Whatevs. The Big Finger is a spell cast by that other boring Japanese dude, and in no way indicates mechanics superior to Crushing Fist of Spite, which does a max of 20d6, ref for half. Dude is more or less incapacitated after one hit. Can't say wheter or not he made his save, though it seems it was against Fort and he did, with the glorified representation of the aftermath. So, suppose he might've taken another 20d6/2=35 damage.

After which he's done. This is totally level 8-12 territory. And if it's the special effects that confuse you, I think you may require a more narratively inclined DM.

Agreed.

So yeah, I'd say he's about level 10.

[Red Archon]

The important thing not that he soaked 112 damage, it's that he survived a massive archery barrage. One way to do this is to have mad AC. Another way to have DR.

In this case, the DR is what you get from a 2nd level spell.

This is a level 3 ability.

'Cause there's like two minutes until the movie starts, I'll nitpick on this. Surviving an archery barrage is definetly not much of a feat, but he really is hit by those spears. So, the feat is surviving seemingly over 100 damage, which can be done with damage reduction or high HP. It's not AC, because those things actually pierce him.

[cthulhu]

Yeah, but my point is that while this guy does it with DR, a wizard could all the same feats in the movie at level 10 - if that video clip is a 'same game test' a level 10 wizard can do it fine.