D20 Modern games

[hogarth]

Would that work? Basically making classes groups of related professions, and when you pick a class you "spec" a specific profession within that group?

Team Fortress 2 works great on a computer because the computer can handle players in several different places simultaneously with ease. Whereas a tabletop RPG can only handle one location at a time. That's why a class like "scout" would suck ass (because while the scout is doing his thing, everyone else is picking their noses or wandering off to play Super Smash Bros.).

[Parthenon]

So I've been trying to brainstorm some possible things a Strong/Fast/etc character could actually do, and I'm having a bit of a problem. Specifically, with the Dedicated PC. What the fuck does "Dedicated" actually mean mechanically? I mean, coming up with anything for the Tough PC to do outside of combat is a complete bitch yet faintly possible, but Dedicated?

The Strong PC is STRONG. He hits hard, can carry big weapons, move large objects and break stuff.

The Fast PC is FAST and AGILE. She hits fast, shoots accurately, has quick reactions when driving and can sneak about.

The Tough PC is TOUGH and ENDURING. She can take a lot of damage, protects others, and has enough patience and endurance to do a stake out or stay hidden while sniping for a very long time.

The Smart PC is SMART. She can outsmart the enemy by using soft martial arts like jujitsu, create tactics on the fly, can take apart and fix mechanical things, and hack computers.

The Charismatic PC is CHARISMATIC. He can convince others of his opinion, bluff and intimidate enemies in melee combat, encourage his allies and devastate people with his wit.

The Dedicated PC is ... WISE? They can give out faux Zen sayings and empathise with the enemy as they kill them? They can realise that being guns for hire is likely to get you killed and retire?

---

No, really, what can Wisdom really apply to in a modern setting? As it is, the Dedicated class is a tiny bit better at healing, but with all the other classes the name of the class describes the PC. But Dedicated?

The Tough class is more dedicated- they can and will continue doing something long after the "Dedicated" class gives up from fatigue.

For example in melee combat:

• the Strong hits hard enough to take down enemies before they can really fight back,
• the Fast hits fast enough that the enemy can't react while avoiding blows,
• the Tough can outlast any enemy and fights until the enemy tires enough that the Tough can take them down,
• the Smart can use tactics and martial arts that use the enemy's momentum against them before using painful locks or their knowledge of anatomy to incapacitate them,
• and the Charismatic can bluff the enemy and intimidate them to slow their reactions enough to take them down.

But the Dedicated? With Wisdom, they can.... sense that the enemy is currently stabbing them in the throat with a sharpened toothbrush. Fuck-a-doodle-doo.

---

---

In terms of power level, I had a possible thought: you could have the PCs have 3 hit dice and be CR 2 or so at level 1, then at every odd level increase in CR by 1. That way at level 20 you are CR 11, still within the relatively sane section of D&D. D20 Modern PCs would start off more powerful but wouldn't increase in numbers that much, instead having a broader range of skills and feats.

Since there are no magic bonuses, the bonuses from class levels (with some jiggling) would be about the expected levels for D&D, and the extra attacks from BAB together with relatively static damage would hopefully mean that you are around normal D&D class power.

[TheWorid]

Remember that Wisdom also includes both perception and willpower. A Dedicated PC can hide out for days with a sniper rifle without moving, detect an enemy ambush, face down a tiger without flinching, see through an informant's lies, and make lesser foes back down just from seeing the cold, grim look in their eyes. Throw in the empathic/medicinal angle along with the "helping" effect, and you could make a complete class.

[Sashi]

The problem with STRONG/FAST/SMART etc is that once you're in the "guns" paradigm the fast hero wins. Because it's rocket launcher tag all the way up.

[angelfromanotherpin]

The problem with STRONG/FAST/SMART etc is that once you're in the "guns" paradigm the fast hero wins. Because it's rocket launcher tag all the way up.

Not necessarily true. I submit Bean Bandit.

[cthulhu]

I submit Arnold Schwarzenegger.

If using a fucking machine gun isn't a viable option in your system it's shit, and if Arnie isn't a viable character in a modern game, it's shit. Remember arnie is fucking hard core so standing next to a grenade that blows up is just a flesh wound.

In stealth sections he can punch seriously 8 eight armed dudes so hard they are all KO'ed as one action, and throw telephone booths at people. When attacked with a 9mm pistol, he can punch the dude so hard that the guy drops the pistol. And unlike the fast dude, arnie goes through airport security fully equipped for mayhem.

[Sashi]

Or, in other words, even if it's "modern" it's still d20, and in d20 system you solve problems through murder. And in the modern era you murder people with a gat.

Unless you get to some weird Dune style personal forcefields that stop bullets and blow up like a nuke when shot with a laser gun (and make the laser gun blow up, too), so all fights are wrestling matches to slooooowwwwly get a knife through the forcefield and stab some kidney.

[cthulhu]

Arnie's a bit one one dimensional, but it's not to bad - in a shadowrun game he'd be an ork bio-sammie with a high intimidate score and a side line in Paracuting, Scuba diving, Break and Enter, sneaking and explosives.

He's actually a fairly functional character really. He's got a number of useful skills, can throw down highly effective fighting skills in or out of a secured areas, has something to contribute in social sections and really steps up to the plate as an ultimate fighting machine in combat.

[erik]

Problem with strong characters is that their main stat has nothing to do with firing a gun. I grant that some coordination is needed for shooting, but there's no reason a nimble person would be a far superior shot.

Modern games would do well to downplay the significance of ability attributes and make things much more skill based.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Problem with strong characters is that their main stat has nothing to do with firing a gun.

Only if the game is based on the d20 modern we-didn't-really-convert-this-from-fantasy set up. You could totally have there be a strength requirement on high-caliber weapons to avoid recoil penalties or some such.

Of course, the TF2 Heavy is running around with a gun that apparently weighs as much or more than any of his teammates, and makes small AOE attacks with it. That's a model where D&D-style Dexterity doesn't come into things.

[PoliteNewb]

Problem with strong characters is that their main stat has nothing to do with firing a gun.

Only if the game is based on the d20 modern we-didn't-really-convert-this-from-fantasy set up. You could totally have there be a strength requirement on high-caliber weapons to avoid recoil penalties or some such.

Of course, the TF2 Heavy is running around with a gun that apparently weighs as much or more than any of his teammates, and makes small AOE attacks with it. That's a model where D&D-style Dexterity doesn't come into things.

Yeah, I think there's definitely room for the "high Str = big guns" model...it's well supported in the source material, from Jesse Ventura toting the minigun in "Predator" to Roadblock from G.I. Joe.

Technically, if we're keeping Wis as perception, than a high-Wis character should be the best shot.

Str = carries heavy guns and blows shit to pieces
Dex = double-taps, quick draws
Wis = sniper shots

Int and Cha are more the province of non-combat roles; though they can certainly have combat abilities based off their prime stat, I'm drawing a blank for a "shooty" archetype based on them.

[Parthenon]

I still think that non-gun combat is still necessary and worthwhile- whether A-Team to Expendables to Commando, while guns are a huge part there are still times when you need to punch a fool in the face. Whether at a party/casino or trying to keep quiet or just have one gun between two people and you are fighting over it, everyone still needs to be competent at melee.

I mean, Predator has been given as source material- does Billy take the Predator on with a knife or with a rifle? Does Arnie finally finish off the Predator with guns or with traps and melee?

Or other gun porn such as Equilibrium- even with all the wanking over gun kata they still have a melee face off at the end of the film.

Brushing off melee as completely unnecessary is stupid and ignores all the source material.

---

A Dedicated PC can hide out for days with a sniper rifle without moving,

That seems to be more endurance - a Tough role.

and make lesser foes back down just from seeing the cold, grim look in their eyes.

Again, thats not really Wisdom, its a lot more Charisma.

Now I don't have a problem with multiple classes sharing the same role at times or even different classes swapping out ability modifiers (e.g. both Con and Wis classes enduring for days, both Cha and Wis classes convincing people, allowing Tough to put Con to Will and use Fort save rather than Reflex with explosions, letting Fast use Dex to melee attack and damage / Smart to melee attack, grapple checks and grapple damage), but the problem is that "Dedicated" is still a stupid moniker, and should be something like Alert hero.

[RobbyPants]

Int and Cha are more the province of non-combat roles; though they can certainly have combat abilities based off their prime stat, I'm drawing a blank for a "shooty" archetype based on them.

Int could be for various types of trick shots, possibly that impose various debuffs.

Cha could also be used for buff or debuff morale effects, which, I'm sure you could shoehorn into firing a gun if you're creative enough.

"Did you see that!? He shot Fred's face off!" * becomes shaken *

[Prak]

Hell, in A Team games, punching a fool in the face is actually *more effective* than trying to shoot him.

That said, I'm not sure anyone in that team is a physical stat class character, primarily, even BA's real defining attribute seems to be jury-rigging.

[Username17]

Certainly one problem is that no one knows what the mental stats do. Another problem is that the difference between a hero you would describe as "strong" and an ally you would describe as "tough" just isn't there.

-Username17

[JigokuBosatsu]

Rainier Wolfcastle vs. Homer Simpson.

[PoliteNewb]

Another problem is that the difference between a hero you would describe as "strong" and an ally you would describe as "tough" just isn't there.

-Username17

Arnold Schwartzenegger (in pretty much any of his roles) vs. Bruce Willis (in pretty much any of his roles). Yes, Arnie is tough, but guys like John McClean are simply Made of Iron.

Int could be for various types of trick shots, possibly that impose various debuffs.

Cha could also be used for buff or debuff morale effects, which, I'm sure you could shoehorn into firing a gun if you're creative enough.

Yeah, but as I said, those are combat abilities...not archetypes. You can sum up the others in a concise sentence.

"Big dude with a giant gun"
"Quick-draw gunslinger"
"Eagle-eyed marksman"

Each of those descriptions implies/encourages certain abilities, but is a role, not an ability.

Trick-shooting strikes me more dex/wis than Int, personally. And while intimidating the crap out of people is a valid role, and I'm sure you can do it in a modern game, I'm having a hard time coming up with an action hero I would classify as a Charismatic hero, first and foremost. I think most of 'em just dip that class.

[Prak]

Rainier Wolfcastle vs. Homer Simpson.

...yeah, pretty much. Or a sideshow Strong man vrs Geek

[Maxus]

Why base classes on their primary stat? That's where d20 Modern really breaks down.

Why not base them on what they do? Team Fortress 2 shows you can define character roles by what they do.

Actually, what I would do for a d20 Modern game is give a player some slots to fill. Like three or four shticks. Each shtick gives you a progression in related abilities. Scaling feats and thematic abilities/bonuses, in other words. Smaller-party games can have the characters get more slots to fill in the gaps.

So you take the Speedy shtick and get Elusive Target from Races of War and speed bonuses and the ability called "He Went That Way!" which means enemies who see you must make a Will save to NOT chase you.

You take the Engineer/Gadgeteer shtick and get to make deployable tripods, Disable/Sabotage Device, trapmaking, and Skill Mastery for tech stuff. Likely a Pack Mule ability for carrying gear onto the battlefield.

You take the Gunman shtick, you get RoW Point Blank Shot and dual-wielding. If you decide you want to play a Grammaton Cleric from Equilibrium, you take Hunter and Combat School, too.

If you get Spy, you get Mega Disguise, a sneak attack/death attack and K (Your Mum).

The d20 Modern slots/trees can be done so people can make a guy who uses Big Weapon and also rigs up a perimeter defense. And given how much material there is floating around on the Den that's free to use and copy, they can be done a lot better.

[JigokuBosatsu]

And while intimidating the crap out of people is a valid role, and I'm sure you can do it in a modern game, I'm having a hard time coming up with an action hero I would classify as a Charismatic hero, first and foremost.

Tuco from Good,Bad&Ugly? Hell, Angel Eyes for that matter.

[Prak]

I think you're talking about doing a system based more in scaling feats than actual classes, which is fine, and really kind of cool, actually. It could be done as a variant on d20, and possibly fix some of the issues inherent to it, and issues that some people have with it (like class and exponential hit points)

[Username17]

But the strong heroes in fiction are also nigh invulnerable. Fuck, John McClean may be made of iron, but Terminator is literally made of iron. The guy in True Lies gets beaten repeatedly, it's no different from the hero in Die Hard. Sure, you can find the occasional Ace Ventura or whatever who is super tough but isn't particularly strong, but the reverse simply isn't available. Any character who is "Strong" is also by very definition "Tough". If a movie bothers to demonstrate that someone is "very strong" then they can also take a tremendous beating.

If a character is played by The Rock, he is capable of great feats of strength. But one of the feats of strength that he will be called upon to deliver is to take a licking and continue ticking.

-Username17

[Prak]

And while intimidating the crap out of people is a valid role, and I'm sure you can do it in a modern game, I'm having a hard time coming up with an action hero I would classify as a Charismatic hero, first and foremost.

Tuco from Good,Bad&Ugly? Hell, Angel Eyes for that matter.

Actually it's a fairly common thing in action movies. Though at the same time a lot of action movie mooks have the trait "Too stupid to live" and attack the intimidating guy anyway, but yeah, see BA Baracus, for example.

[Maxus]

I think you're talking about doing a system based more in scaling feats than actual classes, which is fine, and really kind of cool, actually. It could be done as a variant on d20, and possibly fix some of the issues inherent to it, and issues that some people have with it (like class and exponential hit points)

To a degree. I'm waffling on 1) How long the game should be. It -could- be 10 levels, with scaling feats giving an ability every other level. 2) The difference between a feat and a shtick.

A shtick really -can- be "I'm a tough guy", so you get d12 HD and abilities like...Provide Cover for people behind you. Possibly Fast Healing flavored as recovering after a while. The Tough Guy Shtick can also give the Great Fortitude Feat.

So, yeah, a shtick contains feats as part of it. Likely two feats at the most per shtick, and you can make your own shticks.

After that, it seems to be mostly making equipment.

But the strong heroes in fiction are also nigh invulnerable. Fuck, John McClean may be made of iron, but Terminator is literally made of iron. The guy in True Lies gets beaten repeatedly, it's no different from the hero in Die Hard.

Yeah, that's why I'm thinking of most people getting some kind of Fast Healing. People in action movies are either killed outright, or they get better. So you either kill them then, or you have to start all over later.

It means people can hide behind a wall to catch their breath and even though they're still bruised and beat up, they're basically at full capacity after their breather.

[Username17]

If you want to divide things up by what people do, you have to decide what people do. d20 Modern cannot decide whether it wants to be Ocean's Eleven, Predator, Supernatural, Mission Impossible, or Lethal Weapon. It's clear that there are a group of protagonists (because it's an RPG), and that the action is set in the modern era (because it says "Modern" right on the book), but beyond that, no one really seems to know.

But regardless of what you intend to do, why aren't you running a Feng Shui, Shadowrun, or World of Darkness hack? It's difficult for me to really imagine pulling off a d20 mod that was better at being an action movie than Feng Shui already was. And if you want to do Supernatural Horror stuff, it really seems like a better idea to patch the holes in an existing Supernatural Horror game system than write something from scratch. And so on.

So really if you wanted to make d20 Modern work, aside from changing basically everything about it, you'd need to really define yourself some goals. And most of those goals seem like they could more easily be fulfilled by starting with different inputs.

Once you defined your goals, many things would become clear. The TF2 Scout and Spy would be shitty characters for an RPG that was actually like TF2, because the party would have to stick together to make the action engaging. On the other hand, those kinds of characters could work well in a game that was more Ocean's Elevenish, because the PCs would normally be working together on Rube Goldberg plans that took lace simultaneously all over the casino.

-Username17