A result-based, trapping free, Magic system

[Dean]

An idea has been percolating inside me for a little while now and I have been growing more and more obsessed with it so I thought I'd bring it here and see if you all envision the potential in it that I do.

I've been thinking about a magic system which does not have any trapping or "spells" but instead has results of spells listed and ranked in order of power.

The idea occurred to me when a friend was designing a campaign and wanted the characters to be able to rewrite reality as their power. Sort of like the guys at the computers in the matrix or the aliens in Dark City etc etc. So in puzzling over what system could possibly allow people to do literally anything it occurred to me that if you made a system where the "spells" are listed as options for their eventual results. Such as

Deal 6d6 damage to any target within 100ft and which you have line of sight to

Things like that. So whether you launch a fireball at someone or a lightning bolt or spawn a gun and shoot it you will deal 6d6 damage to a target within 100ft. Now lets say that another option was:

Move a target living creature that weighs no more than 400 pounds 30 feet in any given direction

Now whether you are force pushing someone or teleporting them or stomping on the ground to send shockwaves that makes them fly backwards the EFFECT is the same.

Now you get into what I think would be the cool part. You could start mixing and combining different abilities for more powerful spells. So if someone is standing on the edge of a building then use your force push and make them fall off. That's the best spell effect for this moment. But if he's very tough you might want to add on the "deal 6d6 damage" effect as well so the target will get hit with some explosive force and then fly off the roof.

It would make a fun game of combining and selecting optimal spell effects and the narrative options would make for a tremendously fun group narrative. For instance if another spell effect you have is the ability create a large sized object in a stable location then that guy on the roof could be crushed by a small water tower and swept away. The options are enormous and because the system simply doesn't care about trappings you can make a Fire Mage just as easily as you can a reality altering wunderkind. One just hits the mugger with a firewhip to deal damage and the other makes the gun explode in his hand to deal damage (actually that wouldn't be quite right, that would have to be some disarm effect combined with a damage effect but you get the idea!).

So you could rank "effects" in order of power, say 4 ranks. And finally you would make a difference between "static powers" and "spontaneous powers". Meaning a difference between your mutant characters eye lasers and a wizards spell which he uses to shoot eye lasers that round. So that static powers would gain an additional minor "modifier" effect. Which would be some small bonus. So what this would allow would be in, say, an X-men style game for you to have 3 characters with the following powers.

Johnny Flame: Fireballs deal 6d6 damage and have a chance to make their opponent catch fire, taking 1d6 damage next round
One-Eyed-Mythical-Giant: Eye laser deals 6d6 damage and has a 300 foot range
Thundercloud: Lightning bolts deal 6d6 damage and have a +2 to hit.

That way even with static powers that have only a single effect you can make a party feel like they have different abilities by giving those small "modifier" effects which, while having a reasonably small effect on gameplay would allow identity even with single effect abilities.

That's all for now. And I know some of this is kind of undefined but I have a lot in my head. Anyway, what do you all think?

[TheWorid]

So, a magic system that works in a manner akin to the power systems found in HERO and M&M? Could work, depending on how well you define/price what effects you can use.

[UmaroVI]

Yeah, that sounds a lot like HERO.

[Crissa]

I like HERO.

-Crissa

[Dean]

So, a magic system that works in a manner akin to the power systems found in HERO and M&M? Could work, depending on how well you define/price what effects you can use.

Yes! Except it's sort of like every spell is the equivalent of stunting that you come up with on the spot from an available list of options with no initial requisites.

And the cool part is that it's something of a misnomer for me to call this a "magic" system. Because even though that's what I was planning on designing it for the really cool part to me is that it might be a very nice fix to "Fighters can't have nice things". By basically saying that you can access these effects for your "abilities" whether your character might call those abilities spells, tricks, or maneuvers, or whatever. So the warrior would be creating abilities for their static abilities that would reflect his schtick but he's not picking from a worse group of abilities. And eventually "Aragorn-esque Fighter" probably wont effectively fit the very powerful abilities your performing but that process will have been a fairly gradual one. So when you start wuxia-ing people it won't be a 180 in character theme because you'll probably have been growing closer and closer to that for some time.

Now I'll admit that I have only a cursory familiarity with HERO, I'm very familiar with M&M and the "like stunting but always" description had occurred to me (and as quite a positive actually) but I know very little about HERO and what I might be able to take from it or how it's similar. So hit me everybody.

[Crissa]

I think defining the level appropriateness of results as primary to actually writing the abilities of the classes. You can't fill in the number if you don't know whether the trade-offs are more appropriate.

And it should make it more clear whether Fighter or Mage are balanced.

-Crissa

[TheWorid]

Yes! Except it's sort of like every spell is the equivalent of stunting that you come up with on the spot from an available list of options with no initial requisites.

So, more specifically, like playing an M&M game where everyone just has points in the Variable power, distributed at will/according to theme?

[Ice9]

And it should make it more clear whether Fighter or Mage are balanced.

It doesn't even seem like you'd have classes. It sounds like the characters are mostly just a huge VPP, with a theme and maybe some base stats.

[Dean]

So, more specifically, like playing an M&M game where everyone just has points in the Variable power, distributed at will/according to theme?

Sounds about right : )


And as to the classes thing. I actually still think classes (or their equivalent) would still have a place. It could provide people with additional "power chasis" in tighter themes more in line with normal DnD class abilities. Think of it perhaps almost as if every class in DnD now also had access to the Warblade's progression of martial maneuvers. Classes would still have their own abilities, but everyone would have access to the "Effects chart".

It's late where I am. I'm uncertain if what I've just said makes sense. I'll just hope so.

[Red_Rob]

I had an idea to do something like this, by boiling the entire spell list down to a number of effects and simply scaling them by level. So you would have "damage spell" that deals 1d6 damage per level or "sv vs suck" that would inflict a status effect on someone, and then add modifiers onto that to create your fireball or hold person spell. It was very much inspired by HERO, which you should definitely check out if you are planning to try this.

[UmaroVI]

Even if you don't play HERO, which you really should consider, you ought to read HERO first since it does this sort of thing very well.

The premise of HERO is "reason from effect." In other words, to figure out how many points you should pay to have some ability, you figure out what the ability does, in a generic sense. So like, in D&D, if you want to shoot fireballs you need the fireball spell or an effect similar to it, and you get it by hunting around for a class feature or feat or magic item or whatnot to get it. If you want something like fireball, but a bit different (say, does Force damage) you either can't have it or have to go dumpster-diving for a way to turn your spell into force.

In HERO, you figure out what it does (damage, in an area of effect), so you take the Does Damage power (Ranged Killing attack) at a level of effect you want based on how strong fireball is supposed to be, then apply a modifier to make it affect an area. If you want it to be a Force effect rather than a Fire effect, you have to figure out what this actually means; in D&D, it means that it hits incorporeal targets, so if you want it to mean that in HERO too, you would add Affects Desolid to the power and say that it's now a Forceball.

[Dean]

Wow Hero seems like a definite must read before I start writing this thing up.

[Crissa]

I like to say HERO isn't really a system - it's a creation book for a system. Once you've done all the work of deciding the balance of your characters, you're set to go, and it's actually much simpler to play than create characters for.

-Crissa