Resource Management

[Josh_Kablack]

I think this deserves a separate thread from the RNG discussion.

Resource Management.

Charges The idea is that you have a limited number of super moves that you can do. This encourages nova attacks and hit-and-run tactics, and it increases the value of get out of jail free cards like super dodge and substitute because your enemies are doing the same thing.

Rage Bar The idea is that you have to do stuff in combat to unlock your super maneuvers. Done right, it encourages people to grind in longer combats and play defensively until they can let loose with their super moves.

Cool Down The idea is that you have to wait after using any maneuver before using it again. Encourages "rhythms" where characters use moves in the same order over and over again.

Warm Up Like Rage Bar, except that it's a simple amount of time in warming up a power before it is ready to use. This encourages ambushes.

WoF The characters have access to random abilities each round, which makes them use different abilities in different rounds but does not otherwise create patterns.

Drain The characters suffer a penalty on rounds after they use their super moves, which encourages players to attempt to time their ability usage to occur as close to the end of battle as possible.

Unlimited The characters can use whatever ability they want, whenever they want. This tends to create ability spam.

Now that's basically all there is. And all of them work and all of them have their uses.

In thinking about this, I realized that most RPGs actually use more than one of these systems for characters.

Sometimes they do it to differentiate character types, such as 3.x D&D's unlimited use swording, rage bar sneak attack charge spellcasting and occasional winds of fate item use (wand of wonder, bag of tricks, etc). Other times they do it to make the resource management more complex for a single character, such as a 4.0 D&D character's mix of unlimited at-will abilities, charges encounter, daily and item powers with potential rage bar racials and riders on other abilities.

So, my question is: is it good design or not to include multiple resource management schemes in a game? Is it needless complexity? Is it added complexity that can achieve or fail to achieve worthwhile design goals depending on implementation? If so, what schemes work best together and which don't work well at all?

Is it good design or not to allow or encourage individual characters to have multiple overlapping resource management schemes? Is this needless complexity? Does it make the game tactically richer or just more confusing to new players? Is it worthwhile only for certain types of games? And if so, what combinations of schemes work best together and which work poorly?

[Username17]

Generally speaking, different resource management schemes encourage different tactics. Often in an obvious and substantial fashion. Having multiple overlapping resource allows for tradeoffs that will make characters adjust their tactics to their situations.

Tradeoffs make people feel like their choices matter. And that's good.

-Username17

[TheFlatline]

I'd add that there's a balance between the return on investment and the complexity of rules.

That bullshit SR4 Matrix example Frank posted is a prime example of where choice can breed excessive complexity to the point of a broken system.

[Red_Rob]

I've been thinking about this exact same point recently. The thing with D&D resource management is there are really 3 key "campaign" resources: Daily abilities, hit points and gold. The problem is that not all classes rely on each equally, and there are several "engines" that let you convert one resource into another. Simple examples are a healing wand turns gp into hp, whilst charged wands and staffs turn gp into daily charges. Because gold is an in game object that can be created aswell as a game resource, this allows classes that are supposed to have to manage their resources to nova every fight and still act for as long as the classes with no nova capability.

The main problem I'm seeing is that the warrior classes don't really have a resource to manage. Once you can afford healing wands they enter pretty much every fight at full power, which for the Tome Martial classes is pretty powerful. Wizards can do the same thing with a wand of stinking cloud, but thats much more expensive.

Entering every fight at full power really screws the DMG paradigm of "4 equal CR fights will wear the party down". 4 equal CR fights doesn't do dick. The warriors slash the thing to bits whilst the wizards maybe use a spell or two and then everyone heals to full. I'm finding i need to sling a CR+3 encounter at them to actually make them use spell slots, and even then the warriors are fighting fit at the end of it.

I think a better system would be to put everyone on the same "campaign" resource management schedule, and vary the in-combat resource management. If a Warrior needs 10,000gp of gear at level 5 to be level appropriate, so should a Wizard. If a Wizard can go on average four fights a day before needing to recharge, so should a Rogue. In combat the wizard can be using charged spells whilst the Rogue jockeys for position and the Warrior gets his rage on, but having half the party want to rest whilst the other half is ready to fight on leads to dickery, and warriors relying on party charity makes them seem like the poor cousin.

[MfA]

I have no problem with a warrior always starting an encounter at full power apart from hitpoints and status effect, with only the casters having things which run on daily recharge, I think it adds a nice bit of contrast. Also allows you to rely on some offensive power remaining no matter what, so you have to pull less punches as a DM.

As long as you force available healing per day to become relevant again (although please, no healing surges) they will be forced to rest, not always at the same pace as casters run out of spells ... but that's a good thing. Dickery can be fun too.

[Username17]

As long as you force available healing per day to become relevant again (although please, no healing surges) they will be forced to rest, not always at the same pace as casters run out of spells ... but that's a good thing. Dickery can be fun too.

Healing Surges are the only way to make healing per day be relevant. I point out: AD&D has healing surges too. It's just, the Cleric has the healing surges for the whole group and shares them out as he sees fit.

The 4e idea of healing surges was OK. The implementation was atrocious.

-Username17

[MfA]

My problem isn't with the concept, but with the flavour. Second wind mechanics, fine. Magical healing, fine. Someone shouting "come on champ, you can do it" and me going ungh, healing surge ... no.

[Username17]

My problem isn't with the concept, but with the flavour. Second wind mechanics, fine. Magical healing, fine. Someone shouting "come on champ, you can do it" and me going ungh, healing surge ... no.

That has nothing to do with the healing surge mechanics or flavor though.

The Healing Surge count is a finite number of times you can be healed during a day. The Healing Surge value is a finite amount of healing you can get each time you are healed. That's all it is.

The parts where it's dumb is where they introduce non-surge healing and bonus healing to surges, which render both of those talleys meaningless. Also, you apparently don't like the flavor of the Warlord class, who is a military leader whose primary power is apparently supposed to be giving insightful and non-magical speeches that heal people. But you not liking the flavor of the warlord has fuck all to do with the Healing Surge, either mechanically or in terms of flavor.

It's like saying you don't like the flavor of the Will Defense because you think Battleminds are shitty and Battleminds have a Willpower Defense.

-Username17

[Josh_Kablack]

Thinking about the counter-tactics that each mechanism encourages, because that's the type of behavior to expect from PCs fighting enemies with such power schedules:

Charges: Defenses and Misdirection - anything to make the enemy waste their charges

Rage Bar - either "I kill you first" zerg rush or retreating right before the rage bar fills.

Cool Down - figuring the enemy's rhythm and then timing your attacks/retreats and power usage to best counter it. This is actually really really common in a whole bunch of video games

Warm Up - either "I kill you first" zerg rush or retreating one round before the warm up ends. As this encourages ambushes, stealth and detection abilities become emphasized.

Winds of Fate - against a stronger enemy with "better" powers you want to end it quickly, before that enemy has a chance to use more than a couple of them; against a weaker enemy with "weaker" powers you likely want to toy with them to get to use all your cool powers.

Drain - misdirection, defense novas or sacrificial pawns to make the enemy use their big move early, followed by dogpiling on the enemy immediately after they use their big move.

Unlimited - unless you are also relying solely on unlimited use abilities, you are going to want to try to win fast, but the time pressure here is likely less so than against enemies with other resource mechanisms

[Shazbot79]

My problem isn't with the concept, but with the flavour. Second wind mechanics, fine. Magical healing, fine. Someone shouting "come on champ, you can do it" and me going ungh, healing surge ... no.

I don't think people would have as much problem with the Warlord if instead of describing their class healing ability as a generic ability not too much different from the cleric's healing word, they simply described it as allowing the target to use their second wind with a d+ whatever bonus.

This is where a bit more flavor text comes in handy.

[Alansmithee]

Just wondering, I'm not able to think of any off the top of my head but what system uses a large number of drain abilities? The idea sounds very interesting, if implemented well.

[Username17]

Just wondering, I'm not able to think of any off the top of my head but what system uses a large number of drain abilities? The idea sounds very interesting, if implemented well.

Shadowrun is pretty famous for for it. So is Battletech.
FASA used to loves them some drain mechanics.

-Username17

[Lokathor]

Charges
`Vancian Casting
`Mana Systems
`Everyone in DnD4e

Rage Bar
`Overdrives from FFX
`Limit Breaks from FFVI

Cool Down
`DnD3.5 Warblades
`DnD3.5 Swordsages
`The Battletech Heat system

Warm Up
`Earthdawn's "Spell Thread" system.

WoF
`DnD3.5 Crusaders
`Magic: The Gathering
`Uno
`any card game ever really

Drain
`Shadowrun magic
`The crappy Battletech Mech designs ended up stuck in this category

Unlimited
`DnD3.5 Warlocks
`Fighters from any DnD before 4e

[DragonChild]

Warm Up
`Earthdawn's "Spell Thread" system.

This sounds interesting. How does it work?

`Uno

Fucking Uno.

[Lokathor]

Earthdawn is set in the same world that Shadowrun is, but 30,000 years in the past or so. The world has just begun to recover from a horrible alien/monster invasion/apocalypse. The process poisoned the mana field of the earth, and drawing upon it directly (like you do in SR) would alert the Horrors that are still hanging around, and that's pretty much like a 1st Level Wizard shouting "hey demons come eat me!" in a voice that carries for miles around.

Instead, spellcasters place a spell's pattern into a Spell Matrix. Once it's in the matrix, you "weave" threads into the matrix with a Threadweaving test. Each spell requires a number of threads and has a DC to weave. If you beat the DC by enough you can get in more than 1 thread in a single action. After you don't have any more required threads you make a Spellcasting test and then the spell goes off.

You can't interrupt the spell weaving process or you lose your threads. You can't hold the spell in place once all the threads are woven or you lose your threads. Both of these can be overcome with the right "talent knacks" (kinda like feats), but they're rather advanced abilities to gain so most people operate on the normal system of weaving and then casting right away.

[Username17]

More generally, in Earthdawn you can slow and safe or fast and painful. Accepting what is in essence either a variable Warmup time or a variable Drain. Mechanics need work, but it's an interesting trade off.

-Username17

[NineInchNall]

Entering every fight at full power really screws the DMG paradigm of "4 equal CR fights will wear the party down". 4 equal CR fights doesn't do dick. The warriors slash the thing to bits whilst the wizards maybe use a spell or two and then everyone heals to full. I'm finding i need to sling a CR+3 encounter at them to actually make them use spell slots, and even then the warriors are fighting fit at the end of it.

Aaaand, those four fights require the expenditure of healing resources, which is "wearing the party down" in terms of available resources, which is what the DMG paradigm is all about.

[Josh_Kablack]

I'm curious which category Champions/HERO endurance mechanics fit into.

For most characters in the game:

It's a mana pool - which is charges,
but
characters recover a portion of their End every 12 segments (2-8 of their actions) - which makes it more like Cool Down,
but
characters can spend extra end to push a power granting them extra damage or movement, and can go unconscious from doing so - which makes it like Drain.

[Red_Rob]

Aaaand, those four fights require the expenditure of healing resources, which is "wearing the party down" in terms of available resources, which is what the DMG paradigm is all about.

The DMG states each of those fights should use 20% of the parties resources, listing hit points, spells and magic item charges as examples of resources. This is broken on first principles as soon as they let you trade gold for resources as you can no longer predict how many resources the party has on hand. When you realise how many potential resources a party with a couple of wands of reinvigoration and a wand of web has it becomes laughable. Are you suddenly supposed to be spending 12 charges of web per combat?

The basic things that throw off the whole concept were printed in the DMG. I don't get how they couldn't see that having unlimited cheap healing or additional spells available for sale means resting is no longer required.

The only way to make the system work the way they wanted is either to remove all charged items (including healing potions), or just remove wands and implement healing surges. That way everyone is expending a non-renewable resource each fight at roughly the same rate.