The World of Warcraft hate thread.

[Cielingcat]

Item level is not Tanking score.

I was looking up the tanking score on the BiS list for druid tanks, actually.

PS, I don't even get your whine about the spellpower trinket. One gets you a flat 150 (nice!) and the other gets you a spiked, stacking that in raid situations will 'average' 350 over the combat. They don't seem at all comparable; while I'd prefer the flat, the stacking is seriously much better in PvE.

If you don't know how much better DFO is than a Battlemaster trinket for any caster dps in PvP, you have never done any worthwhile PvP. The comparison is that the BM trinket is the best PvP trinket available, aside from the Medallion, and it is a million times worse than the PvE trinkets.

[Crissa]

But in PvP, the PvP trinket will win more often. Because it works differently.

If you're going to have PvE items (the majority of items) better than PvP items, why is it 'okay' for it to be reversed in some situations (like Tanking, which has no place in PvP!)

You're making a very weird assertion. PvP gear is to focus on the difference in the players - not the difference in luck of getting a proc. You would never, ever want to choose the proc item if it weren't better than the static item.

-Crissa

[Ganbare Gincun]

I just realized that for all of its faults, I'd rather play WoW then Pathfinder. Yikes.

[Cielingcat]

But in PvP, the PvP trinket will win more often. Because it works differently.

No, no it will not. Every single player who can get it uses DFO over the BM trinket, because DFO is flat out better. DFO gets you kills, BM trinkets sometimes extend your life by a tiny bit. But slightly extending your life barely matters, since once you have the requisite defensive stats, getting killed is a result of your positioning and your opponent's ability to prevent you from getting heals; DFO lets you capitalize on doing like 20% more damage to get kills really often.

If you're going to have PvE items (the majority of items) better than PvP items, why is it 'okay' for it to be reversed in some situations (like Tanking, which has no place in PvP!)

My point is that there is all of one, single PvP item that is better in PvE than equivalent PvE items, while there are a huge number of PvE items that are better for PvP than PvP items. Your complaint is the complete opposite of the legitimate complaints about the system.

Seriously. One item, used by one spec, vs like 3-8 item slots used by every spec. People don't PvP for PvE gear, they PvE for PvP gear.


For example, I have access to the absolute best PvP items in the game. I can get all of them, and I will eventually have all of them just because I have nothing else to spend points on. But for me, 4 item slots are better replaced with PvE items that aren't even best in slot just because they're better than the PvP equivalents. I could maybe go down to only using 3, because the last piece I have access to is a very weak PvE piece, but even so I doubt I will.

[Crissa]

Cat, you're arguing stupidly.

People do PvP for PvE equipment. Blizzard has done much to make PvP equipment only work in PvP - such as keeping you from getting killed.

Top-tier PvPers just don't use my PvE gear. Sure, a piece here and there. And like you said, they can't just level up using all PvP gear. How is that relevant to PvEers PvPing for PvE equipment?

You also stated that Resto Druids are god in PvP therefore PvE Ferals wouldn't PvP for the gear. If a Feral couldn't change their spec - and they can - that might be an argument. But they can. They can even do it on the fly now, so they don't have to totally quit tanking to play Arena for a few weeks to come back and tank again.

And then you said 'one half of one spec'. Until a year ago, it wasn't even a half. And you haven't fought my assertion that there's about ten points different in a tank vs damage spec anyhow; which is loads different than the sixty odd points in a whole spec.

I just brought up a couple points showing how the game isn't balanced. And your data agrees with me. Three healing classes rock in PvP. Which wasn't the case two years ago when the plate classes rocked because of damage mitigation.

Yes, the PvP secondary trinket sucks. But I doubt you'd skip it if it were packing resilience and haste ratings instead of the stupid on-use which is too little to really matter. Just as I doubt if there weren't an upgrade to PvP trinket you wouldn't have replaced this, either. If an on-use is that good, you'd choose it. Else you whine.

Geez.

-Crissa

[Cielingcat]

Cat, you're arguing stupidly.

People do PvP for PvE equipment. Blizzard has done much to make PvP equipment only work in PvP - such as keeping you from getting killed.

Top-tier PvPers just don't use my PvE gear. Sure, a piece here and there. And like you said, they can't just level up using all PvP gear. How is that relevant to PvEers PvPing for PvE equipment?

Because it really doesn't happen. Only the 2200 weapons are better than the weapons off the first four bosses of ICC, and to get to 2200 you have to be significantly better at PvP than most of the population. They did this specifically to prevent people from PvPing for PvE gear. Like, this is a thing they have implemented in Wrath of the Lich King to disincentive the very thing you are saying happens all the time.

You also stated that Resto Druids are god in PvP therefore PvE Ferals wouldn't PvP for the gear. If a Feral couldn't change their spec - and they can - that might be an argument. But they can. They can even do it on the fly now, so they don't have to totally quit tanking to play Arena for a few weeks to come back and tank again.

You don't do arena for a few weeks to get a 2200 weapon unless you're really good at it. It just doesn't happen like that-2200 is the the top like 5% of PvPers. You need to have significant experience in PvP to get to that point, just like you need significant experience in PvE to get best in slot items from there.

I just brought up a couple points showing how the game isn't balanced. And your data agrees with me. Three healing classes rock in PvP. Which wasn't the case two years ago when the plate classes rocked because of damage mitigation.

The four healing classes are made to be good in PvP specifically because Blizzard wants every 3v3 and 5v5 team to have at least one healer. Healers are supposed to be present in PvP by design. The only place pure dps comps work are in 2s, and 2s are completely ignored on purpose because balancing around them would screw up the other brackets.

The game isn't perfect, but the things you are complaining about are not at all issues, unless your issues are simply that you don't like Blizzard's design goals.

Yes, the PvP secondary trinket sucks. But I doubt you'd skip it if it were packing resilience and haste ratings instead of the stupid on-use which is too little to really matter. Just as I doubt if there weren't an upgrade to PvP trinket you wouldn't have replaced this, either. If an on-use is that good, you'd choose it. Else you whine.

Geez.

-Crissa

So you're saying that if the trinket was better, and that therefore the best trinket was not available in PvE only, I would not complain? Well yeah, duh. That's kind of the point. If the trinkets were entirely different we might use them.

I guess if feral tanks had their BiS weapon available in PvE, you wouldn't whine about it? Because that is the only spec in the game who even get a tiny advantage from using PvP gear. No one else wants it unless they don't yet have anything better, and often they don't even use it in PvP!

[Crissa]

2200 is the the top like 5% of PvPers.

This is incorrect. This is the 'top 5% this week' + 'in your battle pool'. You aren't competing against everyone - only those who have played this week, in your battle pool.

Of course, they've now changed it so that you need to retain your rating to retain some of the items - a stupid change, because if you ever drop down, you now can't use your gear to get back up.

You need to have significant experience in PvP to get to that point, just like you need significant experience in PvE to get best in slot items from there.

No. You only need a few weeks of focusing on the essentials - getting on a good team that will raise your score. Same for PvE; only time and connections matter, not really skill.

Sure, keyboard turners need not apply. But that's such a tiny slope of skill as to be negligible.

The four healing classes are made to be good in PvP specifically because Blizzard wants every 3v3 and 5v5 team to have at least one healer.

...And so, are over-represented because not 1/3rd of classes, not 1/3rd of specs, not 1/5 of classes or 1/5 of specs do heal. Out of ten classes, only four classes can heal, and only three of them can do so in PvP, and of them, only four of their twelve specs are healing specs. So of 30 specs (and apparently you'd like double count tank specs from DPS) only four can heal in PvP.

So of the thirty random paths they wrote, four are always on teams, by design?

They didn't design Arena.

So you're saying that if the trinket was better

No.

-Crissa

[A Man In Black]

...And so, are over-represented because not 1/3rd of classes, not 1/3rd of specs, not 1/5 of classes or 1/5 of specs do heal. Out of ten classes, only four classes can heal, and only three of them can do so in PvP, and of them, only four of their twelve specs are healing specs. So of 30 specs (and apparently you'd like double count tank specs from DPS) only four can heal in PvP.

So of the thirty random paths they wrote, four are always on teams, by design?

They didn't design Arena.

By the same logic, they didn't design PVE raids, since you need about 1/3 of your raid made up of those same five specs (out of 27 possible specs, originally).

Crissa, you're arguing that absolutely equal representation of every spec in WOW was ever an intended goal. It wasn't, and never has been.

[Cielingcat]

This is incorrect. This is the 'top 5% this week' + 'in your battle pool'. You aren't competing against everyone - only those who have played this week, in your battle pool.

Battlegroups are a representative sample of the entire playerbase. But this next thing is completely and totally wrong.

Of course, they've now changed it so that you need to retain your rating to retain some of the items - a stupid change, because if you ever drop down, you now can't use your gear to get back up.

That is not true. That was never true, and as far as Blizzard has announced, that will never be true.

No. You only need a few weeks of focusing on the essentials - getting on a good team that will raise your score. Same for PvE; only time and connections matter, not really skill.

Have you ever been to 2200? I have, and while it was easy for me, I have no illusions about it being easy for the majority of the player base. Hell, people pay me thousands of gold just to get them 1800!

...And so, are over-represented because not 1/3rd of classes, not 1/3rd of specs, not 1/5 of classes or 1/5 of specs do heal. Out of ten classes, only four classes can heal, and only three of them can do so in PvP, and of them, only four of their twelve specs are healing specs. So of 30 specs (and apparently you'd like double count tank specs from DPS) only four can heal in PvP.

I counted feral dps as slightly different from feral tanks, since they require slightly different builds and completely different gear.

I don't get wtf you're saying with only three classes healing in PvP though. All four are well represented in top teams as healers, and every class is well represented.


I'm honestly not sure what we're even arguing about at this point.

[Crissa]

Battlegroups are a representative sample of the entire playerbase.

What? No. They're random sets of servers which happen to be physically colocated. Over time this has led to homogenization, but battlegroups are known for being strong or weak.

Mine is known for being weak.

That is not true. That was never true, and as far as Blizzard has announced, that will never be true.

Never say never. Blizzard said feral DPS would 'never' be related to weapon DPS. Hmm...

Have you ever been to 2200?

Here you insult a PvE player, and then prove her point - connections and time matter more than skill.

I don't get wtf you're saying with only three classes healing in PvP though. All four are well represented in top teams as healers, and every class is well represented.

No.. A simple google search will find several websites with census data disproving your assertion. If you're such a PvP god, you'd know about them.

-Crissa

[Judging__Eagle]

...And so, are over-represented because not 1/3rd of classes, not 1/3rd of specs, not 1/5 of classes or 1/5 of specs do heal. Out of ten classes, only four classes can heal, and only three of them can do so in PvP, and of them, only four of their twelve specs are healing specs. So of 30 specs (and apparently you'd like double count tank specs from DPS) only four can heal in PvP.

So of the thirty random paths they wrote, four are always on teams, by design?

They didn't design Arena.

By the same logic, they didn't design PVE raids, since you need about 1/3 of your raid made up of those same five specs (out of 27 possible specs, originally).

Crissa, you're arguing that absolutely equal representation of every spec in WOW was ever an intended goal. It wasn't, and never has been.

Actually, that's not quite true. Some specs are strictly better at PvE than PvP, and some specs have slight modifications to make them more, PvP, or PvE. Little tweaks, that either provide more, or less crowd control, or 'escapes'.

Right now, almost any spec can be used properly at it's task, and perform well.

Saying that beast spec for hunters is the only spec is pointless. It's only a good spec if you're solo-grinding/questiong. Marksmanship is the PvE/Raid dps spec, and Survival is the PvP one.

Really, Druids are a cut above many of the other classes since all of their specs are actually usable in pvp, you just need to l2p, and do the daily (frost) badge quests. Which are dead simple now that the random auto-party PuG system was put in use.

A Warrior needs to go Fury if they want to be the best melee dps for their class, or arms/fury for PvP, and protection for tanking. A druid can seriously just have a feral and a balance or resto spec, or two feral specs; and be able to use those specs in several areas and situations.

[Cielingcat]

What? No. They're random sets of servers which happen to be physically colocated. Over time this has led to homogenization, but battlegroups are known for being strong or weak.

Mine is known for being weak.

"Weak" batttlegroups are ones with less players. This pushes the average rating down a little, but it is universally agreed by everyone who isn't wanking to being on Bloodlust that the quality of the players at any rating remains relatively constant. The only people who disagree are the hurr durr bg9 people.

Never say never. Blizzard said feral DPS would 'never' be related to weapon DPS. Hmm...

But you said it was true, when it is not and has never been. So your argument is now the idea that Blizzard might, in the future, do something stupid?

Here you insult a PvE player, and then prove her point - connections and time matter more than skill.

Uh, no, I wasn't insulting you. I was asking an honest question-do you have experience in the area of which you are talking about?

And no one does carries to 2200. It's far too difficult, time consuming, and simply not worth the effort.

No.. A simple google search will find several websites with census data disproving your assertion. If you're such a PvP god, you'd know about them.

-Crissa

Please show me this data. While I know Discipline priests are weak, Resto Druids, Resto Shamans, and Holy Paladins are more than strong, and Discipline Priests are still very well represented. There is no entire healing class that is missing from high end arenas.

Furthermore, every class and even most specs have at least one viable comp. Many have more than one. There is no class in the game that will not get Gladiator on every battlegroup, with maybe a couple exceptions in the smaller ones, due only to their size. Representation may change slightly, but there is no class that isn't viable.



EDIT: Can someone tell me what the point of this argument is, again? I really am kind of lost as to what either of us are trying to prove.

[Crissa]

Go learn about participation rates, then come back and discuss.

-Crissa

PS: Currently, Beast gets better PvE raid DPS than Marksman, this has been true for most of the time Northrend has been open. It has a different playstyle as well, as the positioning and timing of pet use is different, as are the defenses. Of course, it's not as different as Feral vs Balance, but they are differences on the scale of the varied Rogue or Mage trees.

And certainly now that it's plausible (although not well implemented yet) to switch specs on the fly, having PvE vs PvP specs is more acceptable; but the facts of the matter is that gear makes those swaps darn near impossible as is unless you devote serious overtime to playing the game.

[Cielingcat]

So... what's your point? That less druids participate in arenas than other classes? Because Druid healers are incredibly viable and anyone who says otherwise is wrong. Fully 20% of the top 100 3v3 teams use a Druid healer, and Druids have a ton of viable comps. Representation doesn't say much about the actual power of the class. You (I think) admitted that you've never been above 2200, so you actually don't know what high rated arenas are like. And this is not an insult, merely a statement of fact.

I can list Gladiator viable druid comps, if you'd like. There are a lot of them.


Also, Marksman is the top DPS spec once you get to ICC levels of gear. Before that other specs can pull ahead. Marksman is also the best PvP spec once you get to Wrathful gear.

[Crissa]

How many times are you going to insult me for avoiding Arena?

How does it affect my ability to look at statistics?

You might as well ask someone's ERA for talking about the structural difference of the pinch-hitter rule. Geez.

-Crissa

[Cielingcat]

I'm not trying to insult you. I am saying that if you have not played high end arenas, you are not qualified to comment on high end arena balance.

I don't get why that's an insult.

[Crissa]

It's a mistaken argument you're making.

Do you really think that your ability to play a video game grants you precious snowflake insight to the statistical results therein?

Or can't you make an argument based upon the statistics?

-Crissa

[Cielingcat]

I'm saying that the statistics don't really mean anything. You've posted statistics and... haven't really said anything else. You said some things that were factually wrong, and appear to be asserting that druids are bad at PvP, which, again, is factually wrong.

I'm not sure what you're even trying to prove. Is it your argument that druids are weak at PvP? Is it that feral druids are weak at PvP?

What are your statistics supposed to mean?

[Crissa]

You've asserted that Ferals can't go Resto to PvP. You've asserted all classes are equally represented (they're not). You've asserted that you have to play to know what is what. That's wrong, too.

You're not sure what I'm saying because you don't bother reading it. You're so busy dismissing what I've said on account of a few errors that you don't bother looking and examining the evidence yourself.

Don't be so sure of yourself. Be willing to go back and look things up. There are and have been PvP rewards that expire if you don't keep up your rating. There are more of certain classes in high ratings than are participating.

Or do you think the variance of, say, Hunters with high-ratings vs the Hunters participating vs Hunters played total is explained merely because 70% have poor skills? (17% of active characters are hunters, 12% of characters participating in ratings are hunters, 4% of characters with 2000+ ratings are hunters... off the top of my head may not be exact)

What argument are you making? I merely said that class makeup of the rating results isn't near what you might expect when compared to the class makeup of the participants. You said that was wrong. I stated that Druids PvP to get Tanking gear (PvPing for PvE gear) You said that was wrong.

But you haven't bothered to give an argument other than 'this piece of PvP gear sucks!' and 'You don't have a high rating!'. I don't need to have participated to watch and examine the results.

-Crissa

[Cielingcat]

You've asserted that Ferals can't go Resto to PvP.

No, I have not. I have asserted that very few feral druids spec resto to hit 2200 (which is not easy) just to quit doing arenas and use their t2 weapon for tanking.

You've asserted all classes are equally represented (they're not).

I said all classes are viable, not that they're equally represented.

You've asserted that you have to play to know what is what. That's wrong, too.

I said you have to know how to play to have an informed opinion on game balance. I will stand by that statement.

Don't be so sure of yourself. Be willing to go back and look things up. There are and have been PvP rewards that expire if you don't keep up your rating.

When? I have been playing this game since rating requirements were introduced in season 3, and this has never been the case.

Or do you think the variance of, say, Hunters with high-ratings vs the Hunters participating vs Hunters played total is explained merely because 70% have poor skills?

Hunters are actually a very difficult class to play to their highest (gladiator level) potential. Hunter representation may be a little low, but hunters have like 3 incredibly viable comps (PHD, African Turtle Cleave (this is the real name), Shaman/Ret/Hunter) and they are very valuable in 5s.

What argument are you making?

I don't know! I don't even know what we're arguing about! I'm just arguing specific points wherein you are saying things that are wrong, I have no idea wtf the point of this is.

[Crissa]

I have asserted that very few feral druids spec resto to hit 2200 (which is not easy) just to quit doing arenas and use their t2 weapon for tanking.

Great. Now, explain how there's a PvP equipment in every slot better than what you can get without Naxx. So basically, you're guessing, while I can point to Druid forums where just this is suggestion, and taken repeatedly.

I said all classes are viable, not that they're equally represented.

CeilingCat[/url]]...and every class is well represented.

I said you have to know how to play to have an informed opinion on game balance. I will stand by that statement.

You shouldn't. You're saying that only professional baseball players can talk about baseball. It's stupid.

I have been playing this game since rating requirements were introduced in season 3, and this has never been the case.

And I've been playing since ten days after release. This has happened in the past, and I'm sure it'll happen again.

Hunters are actually a very difficult class to play

Ahh, and there comes the excuse.

Look, you're going on about this and that, without every looking at http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/ or whatever to support your arguments because you know, in your heart, that while you know some good players, and they must be the rule instead of the exception. But it's wrong. I'm sorry.

-Crissa

[Cielingcat]

Great. Now, explain how there's a PvP equipment in every slot better than what you can get without Naxx. So basically, you're guessing, while I can point to Druid forums where just this is suggestion, and taken repeatedly.

I do not believe it is a problem that endgame pvp gear is better than non-endgame pve gear. With the exception of the weapon for feral tanks, ICC PvE gear is always better than S8 PvP gear for PvE. But PvP gear can and should be better than, say, Naxx gear, or else it would be useless.

And "well" does not and has never meant "equally."

You shouldn't. You're saying that only professional baseball players can talk about baseball. It's stupid.

I believe that if you have never played basketball at a competitive level, you are not qualified to speak about competitive basketball. You can certainly talk about it, but you are not an authority on it and if a professional basketball player tells you that you are wrong about something you said about professional level basketball, you are probably going to be wrong.

And I've been playing since ten days after release. This has happened in the past, and I'm sure it'll happen again.

When? Was it in pre-BC, before arena ratings existed? Because that is impossible, as arena ratings (and arenas) did not exist then.

Ahh, and there comes the excuse.

Look, you're going on about this and that, without every looking at http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/ or whatever to support your arguments because you know, in your heart, that while you know some good players, and they must be the rule instead of the exception. But it's wrong. I'm sorry.

-Crissa

I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue, so I am having serious trouble arguing against it. Are you saying that druids are underpowered? Are you saying hunters are underpowered? What are you trying to say?


I cannot form a coherent argument because I have no idea what my argument is even supposed to be against. Please tell me what the overall point of your argument is, so I can know what we are talking about.

[Crissa]

But PvP gear can and should be better than, say, Naxx gear, or else it would be useless.

Should it have been better than Naxx gear when Naxx was the top gear? Should it be better than Heroic gear when Heroics are the top?

I believe that if you have never played basketball at a competitive level, you are not qualified to speak about competitive basketball.

That's stupid.

When? Was it in pre-BC, before arena ratings existed? Because that is impossible, as arena ratings (and arenas) did not exist then.

It happened with Honor scores. It happened with Arena scores in BC. So what?

I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue, so I am having serious trouble arguing against it. Are you saying that druids are underpowered? Are you saying hunters are underpowered?

Why would I say that? That's a stupid argument to make. Even with Ferals in none of the top hundred teams, there are threads about how overpowered they are in PvP.

I made some points, and you refuse to answer them. Your answers (as I've seen are): 'It's okay, Ferals are just half of a spec' and 'It's okay that PvP gear is better PvE gear than PvE gear' and 'it's only a couple pieces' and 'Ferals don't spec Resto for gear' and now 'you haven't a rating, you can't say shit'.

That's stupid. The only argument worth salt is that the PvP gear should be on par with current raid gear. That's fine. Perhaps wanted. But you hand-wave all this shit as 'you haven't played! Your can't say.' That's dumb.

You said that people don't PvP for PvE gear. You're wrong. You said every class is well represented. They're not.

-Crissa

[Cielingcat]

But PvP gear can and should be better than, say, Naxx gear, or else it would be useless.

Should it have been better than Naxx gear when Naxx was the top gear? Should it be better than Heroic gear when Heroics are the top?

It wasn't, then. New PvP gear is released every season, just like new PvE gear is.

It happened with Honor scores. It happened with Arena scores in BC. So what?

It never happened with arena scores, you are wrong. I don't know if it happened with honor in pre-BC, but that was not the arena system.

You said that people don't PvP for PvE gear. You're wrong. You said every class is well represented. They're not.

Every class has at least 5% representation by your own statistics, which, while not perfect, it still within the bounds of viability.

And again. With the exception of one single weapon for one single spec, PvE gear is always better than equivalent PvP gear. The fact that PvP gear is usable in PvE is not a problem, nor is PvP gear being better for PvE than PvE gear that is a tier or more below it.


Your points, as far as I am aware, are that the feral druid BiS tanking weapon is the tier 2 Wrathful staff, and... I don't know what else. I am going to say this one more time before I stop responding: WHAT IS THE POINT YOU ARE TRYING TO MAKE?

[Crissa]

It wasn't, then.

Wrong.

It never happened with arena scores

No.

Every class has at least 5% representation

...In the results; not all DPS classes are present; and it's not representative of participation. You can't just say 'oh, 1/20th of the result is 1/10th of the classes, that's okay' when 1/20 of the result is from 1/8th of the participants.

With the exception of one single weapon

Wrong.

WHAT IS THE POINT YOU ARE TRYING TO MAKE?

It's the Warcraft whine thread.

-Crissa