CR should equal Hit Dice

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Username17
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CR should equal Hit Dice

Post by Username17 »

We have the technology. In the modern era, we've started handing out straight hit points for size, and monsters have Con Modifiers and everything.

I don't care if bison have a Constitution of 28 - it's not like these things are actually doing anything with their Constitution scores which is going to unbalance things.

Here are the barriers we've had historically to setting creature CR to hit dice:

1. Sometimes you want creatures like hippos and giant bugs, which have a lot of hit points and aren't that threatening.

Answer: We are handing out straight hit points for size anyway. Empty hit points add even less to threat level than handing out nearly worthless Animal and Vermin hit dice. This is a good thing, and gives us less Giant Scorpions who accidentally end up with high-epic poison DCs and attack ratings.

2. Sometimes you want creatures like Pixies who have powerful abilities and glass jaws.

Answer: If we bite the bullet and actually give creatures a Constitution of 6 sometimes, Fairies are coming out with about a hit point and a half for each level - just a point if we set Con down to 4. We can get some pretty glass jaws going on an 8 hit die monster.

3. If we increase the level to which stats can vary - we risk breaking Polymorph even more.

Answer: Polymorph allowing you to replace your stats with stat lines from the monster manual is already broken. Once we fix Polymorph to be some kind of static statistic bonuses this is going to go over fine. And until we do, things won't be fine - or haven't you noticed?

This is going to solve a lot of problems:

Cows will no longer be inherently resistant to sleep magic.
All the Giants can be put on the Warrior standard until their Warrior levels match their strength and size abilities. Thereafter they can be multiclassed into Fighting classes smoothely, rather than having a hit die hickup.
Monsters will be playable without heavy modification.
Conjuration spells like Planar Binding will fix themselves - because a maximum hit die limit will actually mean something.
etc. etc.
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The_Hanged_Man
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Re: CR should equal Hit Dice

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

That is clever. Kind of makes me wonder why they haven't done it already. It would also fix turning undead, where those colossal skeletons can't be turned by anything short of a demigod.

The main trouble I see is still differences between types. Per hit die, a medium outsider is always going to be more powerful than a medium animal. So do you also have undead and outsider modifiers, artificiallly lowering hit points?
DracoNova
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Re: CR should equal Hit Dice

Post by DracoNova »

The_Hanged_Man wrote:That is clever. Kind of makes me wonder why they haven't done it already.


I actually like this idea, too, but I can see where there might be some difficulties. One such difficulty might be establishing a minimum CR for some creature abilities, since of course there are some abilities that are just way too good for low-CR (and, using this system, low HD) creatures. We wouldn't want, for example, a CR 1 / HD 1 creature with anything resembling Regeneration, as like-leveled PCs would likely be ill-equipped (literally) to deal with such a challenge.

There is, of course, a good baseline to measure such abilities against -- that is, the level at which the characters can gain the same or a similar ability through magic, class features, items, or whatever. That's what the CR system was supposed to be, I'd thought -- a measure by which you can determine a creature's power and abilities in comparison to your PCs'. In order for that to work, the system has to be equal on both sides -- if your monsters can do it, your PCs had better be able to do it or something like it, too, and the same holds true the other way around.

Furthermore, while we don't like to think about it (primarily due to the over-cautiousness and over-estimation of the issue in official circles thus far), stat bonuses make a difference, too. A 1 CR / 1 HD creature with a massive Strength bonus, a similar Con bonus, and a penchant for two-handed melee combat is going to utterly annihilate a like-leveled party unless it's saddled with similar and combat-affecting penalties, as well. Baselines would need to be constructed regarding what is "appropriate" (ie., what isn't mindlessly unbalanced) for a creature of a given CR / HD. This is a bit trickier, but still not too difficult.

All in all, it's a very nice idea, cleaning up, among other things, the horrendous ECL system. Since it is such a good idea, of course, it means we will never, ever see it in official print. :flames:

Username17
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Re: CR should equal Hit Dice

Post by Username17 »

TheHangedMan wrote:The main trouble I see is still differences between types.
Yes. That is a trouble.

Especially the Undead and Construct hit dice - those things blow. The fact that they don't get Constitution bonuses make those hit dice not scale. They also make Equine Golem be unable to run. It means that low level constructs have crazy wads of hit points - and high level constructs go down in one hit.

And its wrong.

Creatures wiht a "-" Constitution was an interesting idea, but it failed big time. It's time we admitted that and moved on. Constructs and Undead should have Constitution scores restored to them - those of them which are tireless (such as Golems and Skeletons) should have the "tireless" ability. Those of them that are not tireless (like vampires and clockwork horrors) should simply not have the tireless ability. Meanwhile, the ones which are plodding, shambling, or otherwise unable to run (like zombies and golems) should get the "can't run" ability, and those which are not (like ghouls and nimblewrights) should be unrestricted.

And so on for all the abilities currently handed out to everyone with no Con Score.

Per hit die, a medium outsider is always going to be more powerful than a medium animal. So do you also have undead and outsider modifiers, artificiallly lowering hit points?


The Imp can and probably should get a very low Con Score.

However, with the way we are going with subtype accumulation the type as character class should probably go out the window. It was a ovel idea, but its interaction with templates and such gets horrible complicated and dumb. As things currently stand, a Vampire who uses his alternate form ability becomes a magical beast with the subtypes "augmented undead" and "augmented animal" - this is far too complicated to be doing us any good.

Monster Classes should be scaled like normal classes - classes like "Giant" can be just the Warrior progression with scaling strength and size benefits as it goes up. When you slap them with the Fire Elemental Creature Template, it shouldn't retroactively go back and turn all the hit dice into elemental hit dice with the "augmented giant" subtype. Instead you should do it by multiclassing a level or two into Fire Elemental.

The creature would then respond to spells which target Giants and spells which target Elementals. The types system should be scrapped - regular D&D multiclassing works better and is easier to use.

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Mole_2
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Re: CR should equal Hit Dice

Post by Mole_2 »

I agree it would make a much better system (it would actually be a system rather than a collection of special cases), but it requires a complete redesign of the MM and xp system from the ground up.

I am unsure if the existing MM can be "converted", for example take the humble ogre :

Ogres are CR2 and 4 hit dice.
If to keep an ogre CR2 you drop its hitdice, you need a con boost of +16 to repair its hit points which gives it effective immunity to fort saves. And it has still lost 2 off its BAB and a point each off reflex and will saves.

If you make it CR4 then you have totally imbalanced the award system !
Username17
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Re: CR should equal Hit Dice

Post by Username17 »

The XP system doesn't have to change at all.

The Ogre is CR 3 in the 3.5 Monster Manual - all the whiners who couldn't figure out that a Wizard could own an Ogre with Color Spray apparently got it bumped.

An Ogre gets a BAB which is sub-optimal, despite the fact that it doesn't actually do anything that isn't directly related to hitting people.

So first we drop it to 3 hit dice, and give it "warrior" style hit dice - so it still has a BAB of +3. Next we note that it is large size, so it should be getting some flat bonus hit points off of that - probably 10 or so (which should probably be the standard, we shouldn't have to remember which creatures get which bonus hit points for size - they should all be the same). Now it used to come in at 29 hit points, and now it's getting 10 from the size bonus and 13 from its hit dice. So if we keep its Constitution at 15 it still has 29 hit points. Now its Fort Save has gone down by one, and it has freed up a feat (which used to be toughness).

The changes to the profile are relatively minor in total. But more importantly, the Ogre is now reverse engineerable as a 3rd level giant class warrior monster. Which also means that advancing it becomes easy, as does modifying it slightly (to respend feats or giant abilities, for example).

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Mole_2
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Re: CR should equal Hit Dice

Post by Mole_2 »

Cool.
Works nicely.

CR3 in 3.5 ?
:rofl:
MrWaeseL
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Re: CR should equal Hit Dice

Post by MrWaeseL »

But what about high levels? There are some creatures with really high con scores out there (the brachyurus comes to mind) which can't be all compensated with size boni.
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Re: CR should equal Hit Dice

Post by Username17 »

But what about high levels?


It certainly gets sticky for higher level creatures - many of whom have BABs which exceed their CR (which is probably not a good idea so long as Grapple exists, but there it is).

The Hill Giant, for instance, is looking at the following:

CR: 7
Hit Points: 102
BAB: +9
Fort Save: +12
Size: Large
Strength: 25
Con: 18

OK, that looks like a tough nut to crack, because we are in fact dropping this guy to 7 hit dice, which means that he only gets a BAB of +7. So we run the basic hit point identity:

7d8 + 10 (for being large size) + 7*Con Modifier =
41 + 7*Con Mod.

If we keep the Constitution at 18, we lose 3 points of Fort Save and 33 hit points. If we raise Constitution to 24, the Fort Save stays the same and the hit points are only short by 12.

Now, there's a number of ways we can handle that - we could, for example, up all Giants to a d10 - which would make their hit die look more like the Fighter. This would cause the Ogre to be 3 hit points and one feat over, and one point of Fort Save under, but if we dropped their Con by two points we could give them Great Fortitude and their vital stats wouldn't have changed at all. Alternately we could give the higher level Giants some of the higher value toughness feats (they could just get Toughness as a bonus feat for every level after 3rd, at which point the Hill Giant would be walking in with the right number of hit points).

It really depends upon how we want the higher level Giants to work - but it's easy enough to draw a fit line between the Ogre with 3 hit dice and the Hill Giant with 7.

The attack bonus is more of a problem. It can be made up with a strength bonus, but that also affects damage. Since they usually use two handed weapons, a +2 Strength Modifier would not only negate the loss of attack bonus, but also give them +3 damage. Heck, even a +1 Strength Modifier would raise their damage by 2. Even so, I suggest raising their Strength by 2 points, which adds a +1 Modifier, for a total of -1 to-hit, +2 damage.

There are some creatures with really high con scores out there (the brachyurus comes to mind) which can't be all compensated with size boni.


The Brachyurus is extremely simple under this system. Since it doesn't use its BAB for attack bonuses, and it can't use tools, we can just fold in strength and con bonuses instead of hit dice. It doesn't actually matter at all what its stats are, because it can't use them for anything.

Soits bonuses are already ginormous - they are supposed to be. It's CR 23, so it's dropping to 23 hit dice. It had 893 hit points, and it's now only getting 136 from having 23 d10s and a 10 point size bonus. So now it has to have a constitution of 76 or so.

And you know what? It doesn't matter. It's an Epic Creature, so the fact that it has a Con of 76 doesn't actually matter very much. It's not like it can actually do anything with those con scores.

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The_Hanged_Man
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Re: CR should equal Hit Dice

Post by The_Hanged_Man »

Another question. How do you deal with spell-like abilities and other miscellaneous stuff?

I see the system you're etching out working fine for balancing basic combat-crunchy things, but once special abilities come in it's going to get really complicated. Just curious.
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Re: CR should equal Hit Dice

Post by Username17 »

Another question. How do you deal with spell-like abilities and other miscellaneous stuff?


Just like class features. Most creatures which currently have a grip of spell like abilities should just get moved into having Sorcerer spellcasting. The Sorcerer is about as good as an NPC class, and an NPC class plus some class features equals a real class. So Dryads can be modelled as a progression that gets Sorcerer spellcasting and an ability or two at each level. Some of those abilities can be tied up in a "Tree Friend" Prestige Domain which gives them spells onto their list that wouldn't normally be available at low levels.

Further, note that the Dryad has some pretty big disadvantages - so it can have powers that you wouldn't give to a 2nd level class.

--

I see the system you're etching out working fine for balancing basic combat-crunchy things, but once special abilities come in it's going to get really complicated. Just curious.


Each creature gets class features appropriate to its level, plus abillities to compensate its disadvantages. The most common disadvantage is the inability to use equipment. Manticores have it, Chimerae have it, Displacer Beasts have it, etc.

That disadvantage is worth bonuses and abilities equal in power to the equipment an NPC character/monster of your level could expect to have and use.

So the Hill Giant in our example can use equipment just fine, thanks, and gets the same abilities that a 7th level character would. However, a Dire Bear can't use equipment, and can get bonuses on top of the Hill Giant equal to the bonuses that the Hill Giant could pull off of the equipment it gets. Mostly that's going to be natural weapons (equal in power to that which a 7th level NPC could afford) - but occassionally that's going to be the equivalent of wands and other funky magic items. The Remorhaz should probably just have the benefit of a Ring of Fire Shield - a 7th level NPC could have one of them.

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MrWaeseL
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Re: CR should equal Hit Dice

Post by MrWaeseL »

Another problem is saves. At high levels, the monster's good save(s) increase(s) at 0.5 per CR. PC's will have enough gold to boost the dc's of their spells by more than that, making higher level monsters abysmal unless they get saves at the same rate or (nigh) unbeatable SR.
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Re: CR should equal Hit Dice

Post by Username17 »

Saves are just plain problematic. The way things currently operate, save DCs are balanced as if you were targetting a multiclassed character (multiclassed characters, as you know, get massively better saves than everyone else). While some people are multiclassed, lots of other people are single classed - and the bad save is not only failing to keep up with multiclassers - its falling behind the simple spell level bonus that spellcasters are getting (before we even calculate in the fact that a Spellcaster has every reason to invest in their casting stat, and a bad save for you probably tweaks off a relatively unimportant stat). The system isn't really working for humanoids, and it even more isn't working for monsters (who among other things, have their bad saves tattooed on their foreheads for all to see).

There are several options I see, going from less to more dramatic:

1> Fractionalize saves from level to level (to eliminate the problem of multiclassing vs. straight classing). Then, boost the bad save up to 1/2 per level, and set the good save up to 3/4 per level - like it was a BAB bonus. Save DCs would then be 10 + 1/2 level + Ability mod for all spells of all levels. Essentially, against people with a bad save of your level, they would have a 55% chance of saving - 5% for every point your caster stat exceeded their save stat. And the base chances would migrate at 5% for every two levels you were above/below them. Against people with a good save, they'd get an additional 5% chance of saving for every four levels they had, on top of anything else they were doing.

2> Eliminate the level modifier for saves altogether. That is, the save DC is 10 + ability modifier. Your Fort save is a d20 plus your Con Modifier. Some classes can hand out Great Fortitude or whatever as a bonus feat - which is not cumulative, so multiclassed characters don't exceed the saves of "normal" characters.

Something drastic has to happen to the save system. As it stands, it is an absolute fact that the disparity of good saves and bad saves in a 20th level party can be greater than twice the breadth of the entire d20 - and that renders impossible any chance of balancing the DCs that people are trying for.

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