New Frank & K Tome pdf

Utterfail · Post by **Utterfail** » Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:15 pm

Doing 'large' pages is a pretty good idea. And honestly, once the PDF is more complete it shouldn't be incredibly hard to use latex to change the format it differently, and would probably be worth doing.

Also, I just bought a new laptop so I could get back to work on stuff like that, the awesome tome SVN has been stagnant for a while now.

Aktariel · Post by **Aktariel** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 6:59 am

Yeah, I've been pretty out of it - went back to work full time, and getting ready to move, and the works.

Added the Storm Lord and made minor tweaks, as always.

Interestingly enough, discovered that SunTzuWarmaster has opened a few issues at the Google Code page - way back in October.

This is actually an excellent system; if you find bugs, please open an issue.

We need to set up a style guide, and soon, otherwise we're just going to be going back over the code again and again as we change our minds.

Also, 332 pages? The latest version including spells is closer to 600, I think.

I stopped backporting changes to 0.6.1 a while ago, so may never be a maintenance release in that tree. 0.7 will be coming later rather than sooner, but it's a "sprint" iteration; I expect 0.8 will be stable and "Tome Core." Course, 0.6.1 will have all of the juicy commentary that 0.8 will most likely cut, so the classes and prestige classes may get backported, if nothing else.

Also, this is nuts:

Utterfail · Post by **Utterfail** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:24 pm

Speaking of which, even though I formatted the spells, I'd say they should probably be taken out, at least for now. They aren't really fully formatted, in addition to the point that spells as is are a sticking point. Many people also think there needs to be new more sensical spells.

Dominicius · Post by **Dominicius** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 5:08 pm

Ok I know that I am probably missing something at this point. I'm pretty sure of this is in fact but I still need to ask...

It has been mentioned that there are four types of magic items (minor, moderate, major) and that each of them has a crafting time. So how much time is needed to craft each item (and how much each of them costs in general)? Is there any formula that lets one translate XP cost into time?

Another thing with removing XP costs. Doesn't this make spells like Gate incredibly powerful? And since we are in the wish economy, can't the PC's just wish up an infinite amount of gate scrolls since these are below the 15k threshold for magic items? Even if I were to make every single scroll count against the 8 item limit, PC's can get such scrolls as early as level 9 and can continuously refresh them.

Also, this is a minor thing but if we have scaling magic stuff doesn't that mean that PC have more gold to throw arround at lower levels since they don't need to spend it on refreshing their gear? I know this is not much of a problem since they can't get anything costing over 15k but still, is this the intent?

Aktariel · Post by **Aktariel** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:39 pm

0.7 is still in alpha. Things are still broken. We are unfocused right now, since we want to both reorganize and edit this material. Priorities need to be set.

Spells can be removed from the makefile so they won't go into the compiled PDF, I suppose. Call me arrogant, but people wanting things from an alpha revision seems a little... demanding, given that they are always welcome to checkout the source and compile their own version.

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:31 pm

Aktariel, maybe Dominicius wasn't aware that parts of the Tomes are in an unfinished state? Since it was consolidated into a single document the unfinished Book of Gears stuff is mixed in with the working systems so its easy to assume its all one finished document.

Dominicius, the part of the rules you are referring to was never completed. They were released in a "part finished" state, so there are still some bits that don't gel with the rest of the system.

The item creation rules were never finalised and the item system, whilst well explained conceptually, doesn't really match up with the items in the DMG or the WBL system. If you want to use the Tome rules you'll pretty much need to decide how you want to handle items yourself for the moment.

Dominicius · Post by **Dominicius** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:36 pm

Ah I see. Don't worry, I have no problems with making up my own solutions. I only hope that I don't break anything while doing so....

Every 100 xp adds one day to the crafting. Stuff with 0 xp still takes one day to craft. Same applies to spells: after casting a spell with an xp cost through any means you must wait a set amount of days before you can cast this spell again.
The cost of resources needed for crafting is half the base item price.

Gate: HD is changed to CR and the amount (for a single creature) you can control is your HD +50% (rounded down).

And I'm ok with letting PCs have more gold at lower levels.

Aktariel · Post by **Aktariel** » Sun Feb 28, 2010 9:58 pm

Whoops, wasn't responding to Dominicus. Started a post and then went away for a while and then came back, edited to remove vitriol, and then posted, by which point he had already posted.

I was referring to the spells comment of Utterfail.

Utterfail · Post by **Utterfail** » Sat Mar 20, 2010 5:52 pm

Alright, I'm tired of seeing "Starting Gold: As X" in the Tome classes. And even though the starting gold isn't released as OGL, it's just a number and and I feel confident that you could include such things into the PDF.

The same could probably said about the age charts, though you could generalize them a bit so you didn't have to reference other classes.

I just wanted a second opinion on the legalities of this before I started working to include them into the PDF.

Edit: Hah, looks like Ak beat me to the gold while I wasn't looking in most cases.

And, after looking more, it looks like I could include age categories, but the pdf wouldn't be able to be advertised as "D20 System" compatible. Big loss there.

IGTN · Post by **IGTN** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:01 am

My big project, the Book of Elements, has been emailed so that a second brain can look at it. It's basically done now; it just needs to get looked over, have bugs hammered out, and so on.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:23 am

IGTN wrote:My big project, the Book of Elements, has been emailed so that a second brain can look at it. It's basically done now; it just needs to get looked over, have bugs hammered out, and so on.

I'd like to see what you have, if you wouldn't mind, whenever you release it to da public.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:48 am

Utterfail wrote:Alright, I'm tired of seeing "Starting Gold: As X" in the Tome classes.

The same could probably said about the age charts

The reason I do it is because I can't remember what's standard and can't be fucked looking it up, so I say "Yeah, just go with that". Given I always pick whatever fucking age I want (and, given the nature of a substantial number of games I play, would have to ignore any roll of under 18), and don't play level 1 games (the only level the random gold matters), neither ever come up.

And, after looking more, it looks like I could include age categories, but the pdf wouldn't be able to be advertised as "D20 System" compatible. Big loss there.

Shit, you mean we wouldn't be able to sell it as such? Well there go all those advertising contracts.

Utterfail · Post by **Utterfail** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:31 pm

On age charts, I think breaking the table into the three categories but just calling them 'Young', 'Mature', and 'Old' would work well instad of referencing specific classes.

That way you get "Rogue Starting Age: Young" and you look at the young entry for your race on the table.

Although, looking at the human ages its 15+1d4/1d6/2d6. It would be possible for any of the categories to end up being 17.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:28 pm

Yeah. I'm a fan of "starting age: whatever the hell you feel like". You could always throw in a 'no old or older' clause to avoid boosted mental attributes.

I mean, my barbarian can't be older than 19? Seriously?

Utterfail · Post by **Utterfail** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:04 am

I'm a big fan of getting rid of age bonuses/penalties flat out, it's stupid.

And yeah, I usually ignore the age shit when rolling a character, but I assume there's someone out there who uses it.

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:50 pm

Not me. It always seemed more of a flavour thing to our group. None of the classes can start old enough for it to affect their stats, so what does it matter if you want to play an 18 year old or a 25 year old?

Utterfail · Post by **Utterfail** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:00 pm

It doesn't matter between 18 or 25, it matter's when someone wants to play a 70 year old cleric for the +3 to mental stats.

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:17 pm

Yeah, thats why I said any age that doesn't affect stats

Just have "Age: Any below Middle Aged"

Or hell, just remove the stat effects associated with aging. If I want to play a stereotypical old wizard I should be able to without breaking the game. Not everyone gets wiser as they get older, and try telling George Foreman that your Str and Con go down at 35.

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 4:05 am

Age is basically just another permanent injury system. Since getting stabbed in the eye won't permanently blind you in D&D, and mortal wounds can be healed with no lasting damage, there's really no place for an aging sim in it.

Aging could work narratively in a game like D&D, but it would require more focus on the struggle of remaining relevant via wealth and experience as your youth and health desert you. A game like that would be better at telling the stories of burned-out sorcerers and one armed swordswomen, but perhaps not so good at 'beer & pretzels hack & slash'.

Blicero · Post by **Blicero** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 8:09 pm

The only problem with old starting characters is that you have to come up with an explanation of why, after being around for 700 years, they're still only level 1 or whatever. Given the crazy-low social mobility of the average D&D world, it seems kinda illogical that some old geezer could just pop a wizard or fighter level out of his ass.

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:24 pm

Yeah, who would be interested in the idea of an old guy finally going on the adventure he has been waiting his whole life for?

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:41 pm

Blicero wrote:The only problem with old starting characters is that you have to come up with an explanation of why, after being around for 700 years, they're still only level 1 or whatever. Given the crazy-low social mobility of the average D&D world, it seems kinda illogical that some old geezer could just pop a wizard or fighter level out of his ass.

It is somewhat illogical, but imagine the following scenario:

As the the armies of the great warlord Nef approached the kingdom, many joined the army to defend their homeland. Sar'a, a village blacksmith, forged a shield and wielded her trusty hammer in many a battle (Warrior, blacksmith background). Raelf, an hedge wizard, worked what charms he could to vex the enemy and bring good luck to his comrades (Adept, peasant hero background).

Few returned alive, are rarely unscathed, but those that lived picked up the pieces and started to rebuild. The peace lasted for 30 years. Now however, the kingdom is at war again, this time with the city-state of Zod.

Even as the young heroes leave to war, a reanimated Nef rears its head over A'laskah with its army of the dead. It will fall upon the time-ravaged shoulders of a few aged veterans to seek the heart of this evil out and destroy it once and for all.

Yeah, so some low-level old farts have to save the day.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:14 am

In higher level games, with stuff like Koumei's Dungeon Siege classes/feats/equipment, or Undead, "Age" is something that needs to be looked at.

Plus, of course, there's the "Ancient One" background that was written up for the "Modron Created" version of Warforged.

Personally, I like the idea of playing a 40+ thousand year old human. Who thinks that the 800 year old vampire is a "pup", and that the "300 year old" Elf is "kid".

Of course, it's not like this concept is new. The stories of Longinus, Lazarus Long, 'Caska' (aka Longinus, reskinned), and Dark Schneider from Bastard!! (although, that series has several really long-lived characters).

Old man story is... old.

The 3 stat points are a +2 bonus at the most; and aside from levels, wish economy boosts, and scaling magic items; probably the only 'non-standard' method to raise stats in a Tome Game. Even then, a character has to burn a feat to get this, or become an undead. Both of which have drawbacks.

Sometimes it's not that a character farts out a level of "Class".

It's that your average "high level" adventurer, could seriously be thousands of years old. Either from drinking the blood of outsiders, 'hanging out' with outsiders, or being given "special dispensation" by an Power; or you know, being Hob Gadling.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:35 am

Judging__Eagle wrote:Personally, I like the idea of playing a 40+ thousand year old human. Who thinks that the 800 year old vampire is a "pup", and that the "300 year old" Elf is "kid".

Really, JE wants his character to be better than something specifically designed to be old at being old without having picked something that is old...?

Really?

That's the first time that's ever happened!

Utterfail · Post by **Utterfail** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:19 am

Dudes, you could still be old, you just dont get fucking stat bonuses for it, shits retarded.